[Hungary] Armed forces

[RawLee]

Originally Posted by Qtya

One was shot down, and another said to be damaged, but flew home.

Point is,it was hit. Thus,the "virtually untouchable in 360-degree space" is incorrect. You have like 10 seconds to lock onto it,fire your missile,or die. Mr Zoltán Dani did it.

[Qtya]

Originally Posted by RawLee

Point is,it was hit. Thus,the "virtually untouchable in 360-degree space" is incorrect. You have like 10 seconds to lock onto it,fire your missile,or die. Mr Zoltán Dani did it.

From Wiki:

One F-117 has been lost in combat with the Army of Yugoslavia. On 27 March 1999, during the Kosovo War, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Air Defence Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani,[38] downed F-117A callsign "Vega 31", AF Serial Number 82-0806, with a Serbian-improved Isayev S-125 'Neva' (NATO name SA-3 'Goa') anti-aircraft missile system.[39][40] According to NATO Commander Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Serbian air defenses detected F-117s by operating their radars on unusually long wavelengths, making the aircraft visible to radar for brief periods.

Reportedly, several SA-3s were launched from approximately 8 miles out, one of which detonated near the F-117A, forcing the pilot to eject. Though still classified, it is believed that the F-117 has no radar warning indicator, so the pilot's first indication of an incoming missile was likely seeing its flame. At this distance and combined speed the pilot had about six seconds to react before impact. According to an interview, Zoltán Dani kept most of his missile sites intact by frequently moving them, and had spotters looking for F-117s and other NATO aircraft. He oversaw the modification of his targeting radar to improve its detection.[40] The commanders and crews of the SAMs guessed the flight paths of earlier F-117A strikes from rare radar spotting and positioned their SAM launchers and spotters accordingly. It is believed that the SA-3 crews and spotters were able to locate and track F-117A 82-806 visually, probably with infra-red and night vision systems.

Basically, they got pretty lucky... And prepared well...

[RawLee]

Thats not luck.Luck is rolling 6 on the dice 12 times. This is called experience.

[Qtya]

Originally Posted by RawLee

Thats not luck.Luck is rolling 6 on the dice 12 times. This is called experience.

Ok. It not luck. Try to shoot down a bird, you might see, but not sure with a shotgun from 40 meters...

[RawLee]

You do know that he didnt use WWII anti-aircraft machineguns,but radar homing missiles?

[Qtya]

Originally Posted by RawLee

You do know that he didnt use WWII anti-aircraft machineguns,but radar homing missiles?

The S-125 uses radio command guidance, which means its basically running blind and receives "instructions" from the command building or truck accompanying the launcher. Since the Serbian air defenses detected the F-117 by operating their radars on unusually long wavelengths, making the aircraft visible to radar for only brief periods, means yes, they were only aiming where they thought the F-117 should be flying... Making my example pretty close to the reality. Yes, they got lucky. Plus the F-117 didn't take a direct hit, but a close one. Which means it detonated at an estimated hight, also proves my theory.

And a shotgun is not a machine gun...

[RawLee]

No,it is not accurate. It would be accurate,if the bird would be deaf and almost blind,and if it would be unable to make sudden turns.

"the F-117 has no radar warning indicator, so the pilot's first indication of an incoming missile was likely seeing its flame"

They observed the target for some minutes,counted its speed and direction. There is no luck in this. Explosion near the target could be the result of proximity payload,which is sometimes more destructive than a direct hit,due to sharpnels.


"they were only aiming where they thought the F-117 should be flying"

Yes,thats what soldiers used to do with tanks and airplanes and ships 50 years ago. It was taught in schools how to do that. And soldiers pretty much do that with hand-held weapons.

[tersyxus]

Actually it really was not a lucky shot into the dark sky.

This guy was a genious!!!

--- Zoltan had about 200 troops under his command. He got to know them well, trained hard and made sure everyone could do what was expected of them. This level of quality leadership was essential, for Zoltan's achievements were a group effort.

--- Zoltan used a lot of effective techniques that American air defense experts expected, but did not expect to encounter because of poor leadership by the enemy. For example, Zoltan knew that his major foe was HARM (anti-radar) missiles and electronic detection systems used by the Americans, as well as smart bombs from aircraft who had spotted him. To get around this, he used landlines for all his communications (no cell phones or radio). This was more of a hassle, often requiring him to use messengers on foot or in cars. But it meant the American intel people overhead were never sure where he was.

--- His radars and missile launchers were moved frequently, meaning that some of his people were always busy looking for new sites to set up in, or setting up or taking down the equipment. His battery traveled over 100,000 kilometers during the 78 day NATO bombing campaign, just to avoid getting hit. They did, and his troops knew all that effort was worth the effort.

--- The Serbs had spies outside the Italian airbase most of the bombers operated from. When the bombers took off, the information on what aircraft they, and how many, quickly made it to Zoltan and the other battery commanders.

--- Zoltan studied all the information he could get on American stealth technology, and the F-117. There was a lot of unclassified data, and speculation, out there. He developed some ideas on how to beat stealth, based on the fact that the technology didn't make the F-117 invisible to radar, just very to get, and keep, a good idea of exactly where the aircraft was. Zoltan figured out how to tweak his radars to get a better lock on stealth type targets. This has not been discussed openly.

--- The Serbs also set up a system of human observers, who would report on sightings of bombers entering Serbia, and track their progress.

--- The spies and observers enabled Zoltan to keep his radars on for a minimal amount of time. This made it difficult for the American SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) to use their HARM missiles (that homed in on radar transmissions.) Zoltan never lost a radar to a HARM missile.

--- Zoltan used the human spotters and brief use of radar, with short range shots at American bombers. The SA-3 was guided from the ground, so you had to use surprise to get an accurate shot in before the target used jamming and evasive maneuvers to make the missile miss. The F-117 he shot down was only 13 kilometers away.

Zoltan got some help from his enemies. The NATO commanders often sent their bombers in along the same routes, and didn't make a big effort to find out if hotshots like Zoltan were down there, and do something about it. Never underestimate your enemy.

[venom6]

[Qtya]

Originally Posted by tersyxus

Actually it really was not a lucky shot into the dark sky.

This guy was a genious!!!

--- Zoltan had about 200 troops under his command. He got to know them well, trained hard and made sure everyone could do what was expected of them. This level of quality leadership was essential, for Zoltan's achievements were a group effort.

--- Zoltan used a lot of effective techniques that American air defense experts expected, but did not expect to encounter because of poor leadership by the enemy. For example, Zoltan knew that his major foe was HARM (anti-radar) missiles and electronic detection systems used by the Americans, as well as smart bombs from aircraft who had spotted him. To get around this, he used landlines for all his communications (no cell phones or radio). This was more of a hassle, often requiring him to use messengers on foot or in cars. But it meant the American intel people overhead were never sure where he was.

--- His radars and missile launchers were moved frequently, meaning that some of his people were always busy looking for new sites to set up in, or setting up or taking down the equipment. His battery traveled over 100,000 kilometers during the 78 day NATO bombing campaign, just to avoid getting hit. They did, and his troops knew all that effort was worth the effort.

--- The Serbs had spies outside the Italian airbase most of the bombers operated from. When the bombers took off, the information on what aircraft they, and how many, quickly made it to Zoltan and the other battery commanders.

--- Zoltan studied all the information he could get on American stealth technology, and the F-117. There was a lot of unclassified data, and speculation, out there. He developed some ideas on how to beat stealth, based on the fact that the technology didn't make the F-117 invisible to radar, just very to get, and keep, a good idea of exactly where the aircraft was. Zoltan figured out how to tweak his radars to get a better lock on stealth type targets. This has not been discussed openly.

--- The Serbs also set up a system of human observers, who would report on sightings of bombers entering Serbia, and track their progress.

--- The spies and observers enabled Zoltan to keep his radars on for a minimal amount of time. This made it difficult for the American SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) to use their HARM missiles (that homed in on radar transmissions.) Zoltan never lost a radar to a HARM missile.

--- Zoltan used the human spotters and brief use of radar, with short range shots at American bombers. The SA-3 was guided from the ground, so you had to use surprise to get an accurate shot in before the target used jamming and evasive maneuvers to make the missile miss. The F-117 he shot down was only 13 kilometers away.

Zoltan got some help from his enemies. The NATO commanders often sent their bombers in along the same routes, and didn't make a big effort to find out if hotshots like Zoltan were down there, and do something about it. Never underestimate your enemy.

I never said that. The aiming is one thing, but when a missile locks on target is different..

[Cosmin]

Originally Posted by gallopingmajor

Those Gripens are high-performance fighters but no where near the United State's F-33 Raptor -- the most advanced and insurmountable attack-fighter craft on Earth.

Ok, wtf's the "F-33"?! And of course a JAS-39 is nowhere near an F-22... it wasn't designed to be. It's like saying "well, my Ford Fiesta is nowhere near a Ferrari FXX. Well, duh!

And btw, the F-22 is not really meant for attack (strike). The F-15E Strike Eagle (F-15SE is in the works) still gives the bird to all of them and we'll see about the F-35. I'm not saying the F-22 can't fly strike missions, because it can, but it's primarily an air superiority (more like air supremacy) fighter.

[Qtya]

Originally Posted by Qtya

Wait till Cosmin sees this...

Told ya'...
But to be honest Bro', you should've seen this comin'...

[gallopingmajor]

Originally Posted by Qtya

Told ya'...
But to be honest Bro', you should've seen this comin'...

Yep, you did warn me Qtya . Cosmin you seen to know a lot about aircraft, my bro also is a great authority on the subject, congrats.

[Cosmin]

I'm an aviation enthusiast (codeword for "obnoxious geek"), not an authority.

[Qtya]

Zöld utat kapott a Tubes



Jogerősen elutasította pénteken a Fővárosi Bíróság felülvizsgálati eljárásában azokat a kereseteket, amelyek megtámadták a Tubes tetején lévő katonai híradóobjektum korszerűsítését, a NATO-radar kiépítését engedélyező miniszteri határozatot. "A döntéssel minden magyar állampolgár nyert", fogalmazott Bocskai István, a Honvédelmi Minisztérium szóvivője.
A per előzménye, hogy a közigazgatási eljárásban az első fokon eljáró katonai építésügyi hatóság, majd pedig másodfokon 2007. június 20-án a honvédelmi miniszter is engedélyezte a Tubes tetején a beruházást. A közigazgatási eljárásban korábban megszületett másodfokú miniszteri határozatot azonban a perből később kizárt magánszemélyek, valamint jogi személyek - köztük Pécs városa - megtámadták a Fővárosi Bíróságon.

A bíróság indokolásában azt hangsúlyozta: az Alkotmánybíróság által levezetett szükségesség-arányosság elvét vizsgálta döntése meghozatalakor, vagyis azt, hogy a katonai, légvédelmi előnyök arányban állnak-e a természetvédelmi hátrányokkal, és ezt megfelelőnek találta. A bíró kitért arra is, hogy a beruházás helyszíne nem tartozik a kiemelt jelentőségű természetmegőrzési területek jegyzékébe, csak azokkal határos, továbbá az ingatlan eddig is honvédelmi terület volt, így más építési szabályok vonatkoznak rá, mint általában az építési területekre. A felperesek által fő érvként felhozott, az egészséges élethez való - alkotmányban is rögzített - joggal kapcsolatban a bíró azt mondta: a radar kritikus infrastruktúrának minősül, ezért használatba vétele után folyamatos ellenőrzésre és a lakosság tájékoztatására van szükség. Emlékeztetett: a bíróság korábbi részítéletében megállapította, hogy az elektromágneses sugárzás nem haladja meg a "lakossági expozíciós határértéket" (azaz az egészségügyi határértéket), az ez alatti értéket pedig közigazgatási eljárás keretében nem vizsgálhatta. Ez legfeljebb polgárjogi igényként merülhet fel - tette hozzá. A Fővárosi Bíróság határozata jogerős, de ellene az írásba foglalást követő hatvan napon belül felülvizsgálatot lehet kérni a Legfelsőbb Bíróságon.

A határozat kihirdetése után a tárgyaláson jelenlevő Bocskai István, a Honvédelmi Minisztérium (HM) szóvivője azt mondta: hamarosan folytatódik a Tubesre tervezett NATO-radar beruházása, és a tárca igyekszik csökkenteni a beruházás csúszásából adódó károkat. A mostani döntéssel senki sem veszített, hanem minden magyar állampolgár nyert - fogalmazott a szóvivő. Hozzátette: azzal, hogy folytatódhat az építkezés, szavatolni lehet Magyarország biztonságát.

Bocskai István hangsúlyozta: a HM fenntartja azt a - még a felülvizsgálati eljárás előtt tett - felajánlását, amely szerint a pécsiek figyelemmel követhetik a beruházást és azt, hogy az engedélyeknek megfelelően járnak el.

http://www.honvedelem.hu/cikk/0/1737...t_a_tubes.html

[BND]

pont itt volt már az ideje...

[Qtya]

Originally Posted by Ultra84

Nem vagyok, egy nagy harcászati szakértő (bár 10 éve még rendszeresen vásároltam a TopGun című lapot), de az F-15-ösök jobbak lennének "papíron", vagy akárhol máshol a Gripeneknél?Az F-15-ösök már 76 óta szolgálatban vannak (32 éves konstrukció), míg a Gripenek csak 96 óta. Ez ugye 20 év különbség a Gripenek javára. Valaki aki jobban ért hozzá megtudná magyarázni? Ennyit lehet javítani egy vadászgépen "elektronikai tunningal"?

Valódi törésteszt izraeli módra

http://www.jetfly.hu/rovatok/jetfly/...izraeli_modra/

Ismertem a story-t, mert anno régen a Top Gun is lehozta (1996 óta jár nekem), de jó volt újra feleleveníteni.

BTW: A Gripen erre soha nem lenne képes...

[venom6]

2012-től lesz magyar tartalékos haderő

2009. december 7., hétfő 19:38 | Frissítve: 15 perce

Bevezetik 2012-től a tartalékos haderőt Magyarországon. Erről a honvédség hivatásos és szerződéses állományú katonáinak jogállásról szóló törvény (HJT) módosításával, 343 igen 1 nem és 1 tartózkodás mellett döntöttek a képviselők.

Az önkéntes tartalékos szolgálat lényege, hogy mintegy 4000 embert úgy alkalmaz a honvédség, hogy az önkéntesek megtartanák civil foglalkozásukat.

Első alkalommal 25 napra, ezt követően a szerződésben foglalt időtartamra, évente legfeljebb 15 napra hívhatják be őket. Ezen felül az önkéntes tartalékos 3 évente, összesen legfeljebb 6 hónap tényleges szolgálatra is behívható a Magyar Honvédség szervezeteihez.
hirdetés

Fizetésüket, a költségtérítések, kedvezmények és támogatások mértékét a szerződéses katonákra vonatkozó szabályok szerint kell megállapítani. Ezen felül rendelkezésre állási díjra jogosult minden önkéntes, ennek összege a szerződés 1-2 évében évi 1 havi, 3-5 évében évi 2 havi, 5 év felett évi 3 havi alapilletmény összegével egyenlő.

Változik az az eddigi szabály is, amely szerint akik elérték az adott rendfokozatban eltölthető maximális időt, kénytelen voltak elhagyni a szolgálatot. A HJT módosítása lehetővé teszi, hogy kérésre, ha a parancsnok is úgy ítéli meg, akkor meghosszabbítható a szolgálati idő.

A módosítással az eddigi gyakorlattól eltérően 30 nap betegszabadság után automatikusan csökken az addig 100 százalékos térítés 90 százalékra. Ezután az illetékes parancsnok megvizsgálja a betegség okát, és ha nem a szolgálatteljesítéssel összefüggő probléma okozta a betegséget, akkor tovább csökkenhet a térítési díj egészen 50 százalékig, ha igen, akkor megtérítik a 100 százalékot.

Módosították a leszerelési segélyt is és bevezették a szerződés-hosszabbítási díjat. A módosítás értelmében a katona ezentúl egy periódus szerint (3-4-5 év) veheti fel ezt a díjat: 3 év után 1,3 havi illetmény, 5 év után 1,6 havi pénzt kaphat egészen 20 évig, igaz a pénz csak egy ideig növekszik, aztán csökken.

A jövőben a katonák a szakszervezet által rendezett megmozdulásokon egyenruhában vehetnek részt, de valamilyen megkülönböztető jelzést kell magukon viselniük, pontosabban egy karszalagot.

A HJT-módosítás nyomán ezentúl a szakközépiskolai tanulmányi időt beszámítják a nyugdíjjogosultságba.

Forrás: MTI - Index.hu

[Ultra84]

Originally Posted by Qtya

Valódi törésteszt izraeli módra

http://www.jetfly.hu/rovatok/jetfly/...izraeli_modra/

Ismertem a story-t, mert anno régen a Top Gun is lehozta (1996 óta jár nekem), de jó volt újra feleleveníteni.

BTW: A Gripen erre soha nem lenne képes...

Köszi a cikket, elképesztő sztori!

[AlbertZ]

durva..