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Old November 30th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #381
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Silly, silly me !!

Merci, Ô grand prêtre !
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Old November 30th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #382
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Grand toubab. Merci d'utiliser le terme correct.
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Old November 30th, 2010, 10:30 PM   #383
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Pardonnez moi bwana !




P.S. More seriously, I admit I was a bit extreme in my earlier post (#377).

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Old November 30th, 2010, 10:50 PM   #384
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i don't like those towers..

paris is a really simetric city, and as someone said, this proyect breaks it..
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Old December 1st, 2010, 07:23 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
this historical axis doesn't suits this skyline !!

The balance is not respected!! Who is the stupid guy who runs la defense scheme development?

In usa or london or again asia business districts includes the taller buildings at the centre! This is not respected here with this axis they don't respect! Why can't we make things like this? it is an international shame
what symmetry? i'm pretty sure any hypothetical symmetry is compromised by the grande arche, which is suppose to be the centerpiece of la defense... and it's not like the development is evenly distributed anyways, the skyline looks more developed on one side of the axis.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 02:14 AM   #386
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Even better! Try not to think of who should be taxed what or who should benefit from that tax... Try to conceive that taxing and then redistributing doesn't actually create any revenue but simply stifles wealth and job creation.
I know you're French and it'll be hard but still... try.
Mouais enfin, on n'est pas dans un débat sur la fiscalité. En tout cas je ne vois pas le rapport avec le fait que je sois français.
Et nous abondons mutuellement dans nos sens réciproques Axelferis, krostycba et moi-même : il faut deux autres tours de l'autre côté de l'Arche pour ne pas trop troubler la symétrie.


Yeah, finally, we are not in a debate on taxation. In any case I do not see the connection with the fact that I am French.
And we agree mutually reciprocal Axelferis in our senses, krostycba and myself: we need two other towers on the other side of the Ark not to disturb the symmetry too.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #387
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I can't quite bring myself to like these towers. Nothing to do with the fact that they're in Paris, as the city can have its elegant centre and skyscrapers too.

No, its simply the fact that the 90 degree twist in geometry, whilst 'clever' just results in a form that just isn't at all elegant in this case: Too top-heavy. No soar. For 323m high, that's some achievement. I'd also like to have seen more play with the fact that there are two of them - more of a dialogue between the two. If they want to go with the twisty school of tower design, then there's real potential to have them dance with each other, create a tension in the space between the two. At the moment, they don't respond to each other, they just sit there side by side. As it is, they just sort of make me think of two spatulas sticking up or startled rabbit ears.

Sorry Paris. I've seen better.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 04:01 PM   #388
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I can't quite bring myself to like these towers. Nothing to do with the fact that they're in Paris, as the city can have its elegant centre and skyscrapers too.

No, its simply the fact that the 90 degree twist in geometry, whilst 'clever' just results in a form that just isn't at all elegant in this case: Too top-heavy. No soar. For 323m high, that's some achievement. I'd also like to have seen more play with the fact that there are two of them - more of a dialogue between the two. If they want to go with the twisty school of tower design, then there's real potential to have them dance with each other, create a tension in the space between the two. At the moment, they don't respond to each other, they just sit there side by side. As it is, they just sort of make me think of two spatulas sticking up or startled rabbit ears.

Sorry Paris. I've seen better.
I have to say I agree with you - they don't seem special enough and look top heavy
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Old December 8th, 2010, 08:09 PM   #389
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Easy guys, everyone seems to be concerned about this symmetry point of view. I'm from London so I didn't realise it concerns several people so much but here's how I see it....

You have 4 buildings of around 1000ft with 2 of those being Hermitage plaza planned for construction and approved; In London....I could only dream of this! I know it's not all about height but it's a good start and to be honest La Defense will be, without challenge, the best skyline in Europe. Here in London we have one 1,017ft building going up with several smaller ones to follow and after that....there's no chance with the current planning problems we'll see anything close to Hermitage Plaza or any of the others Paris plans in the next 30years!!!!! So just think yourselves lucky!! If Frankfurt pulls their 1,200ft design out and builds that as well, London will definitely look 3rd place aesthetically, even if not financially! Oh yes...and you don't have height limits on your buildings so you can be free to build something beautiful to whatever you like design wise without restriction! Paris, you have it made for the future there, don't complain!
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Old December 11th, 2010, 07:23 PM   #390
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Easy guys, everyone seems to be concerned about this symmetry point of view. I'm from London so I didn't realise it concerns several people so much but here's how I see it....

You have 4 buildings of around 1000ft with 2 of those being Hermitage plaza planned for construction and approved; In London....I could only dream of this! I know it's not all about height but it's a good start and to be honest La Defense will be, without challenge, the best skyline in Europe. Here in London we have one 1,017ft building going up with several smaller ones to follow and after that....there's no chance with the current planning problems we'll see anything close to Hermitage Plaza or any of the others Paris plans in the next 30years!!!!! So just think yourselves lucky!! If Frankfurt pulls their 1,200ft design out and builds that as well, London will definitely look 3rd place aesthetically, even if not financially! Oh yes...and you don't have height limits on your buildings so you can be free to build something beautiful to whatever you like design wise without restriction! Paris, you have it made for the future there, don't complain!
You seem to be confusing height with aesthetics (and, somehow, economics too).
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Old December 11th, 2010, 07:43 PM   #391
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You may like it or not, but at least nobody's left unmoved* by the project, & that what matters...

* particularly our british comrades...
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Old December 11th, 2010, 08:05 PM   #392
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You seem to be confusing height with aesthetics (and, somehow, economics too).
Hey Newcastle Guy, I'm not denying LBT is beautiful. To be fair, I did say it's not all about height. My point was that there is no height limit for Paris. Aesthetically that makes it a blank canvas without limits when having the drawing board in front of you as an architect. They have a planned area to go wild with (economics permitting, which frankly, it appears it is). I do hear this argument about aesthetics over height a lot with London simply because we can't compete on height. My argument is not that height is the be all and end all, but that....if you don't want to stop at 1000ft and have something beautiful to get off the drawing board that would look stunning on the skyline, you can, in London, you can't and you have to ensure the correct floor space fits in with the design of the pen to 1,000ft only give or take a few feet.

I'm saying, this is restrictive. Also that London does, even aesthetically, need just a couple more buildings in or around LBT height and preferably one taller but this is all subjective. Simply, London has limits, Paris does not and I know which I'd prefer simply for freedom in design purposes if nothing else. In Paris there's no compromise, in London there is. I don't like compromise when it comes to design but unfortunately we have to do it an awful lot whether low at 400ft or 1,000ft plus.

As for economics, well....it seems Paris is pushing ahead with two 1,060ft (or was that 1,100ft now?) and another 994ft building by 2016. Now, in London we can't bring Riverside South to fruition, Three Sisters, and with anything tall we have a long waiting time to get pre-lets and get the damn thing off the ground. How does London have trouble with this and Paris does not?
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Old December 11th, 2010, 11:05 PM   #393
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Hey Newcastle Guy, I'm not denying LBT is beautiful. To be fair, I did say it's not all about height. My point was that there is no height limit for Paris. Aesthetically that makes it a blank canvas without limits when having the drawing board in front of you as an architect. They have a planned area to go wild with (economics permitting, which frankly, it appears it is). I do hear this argument about aesthetics over height a lot with London simply because we can't compete on height. My argument is not that height is the be all and end all, but that....if you don't want to stop at 1000ft and have something beautiful to get off the drawing board that would look stunning on the skyline, you can, in London, you can't and you have to ensure the correct floor space fits in with the design of the pen to 1,000ft only give or take a few feet.

I'm saying, this is restrictive. Also that London does, even aesthetically, need just a couple more buildings in or around LBT height and preferably one taller but this is all subjective. Simply, London has limits, Paris does not and I know which I'd prefer simply for freedom in design purposes if nothing else. In Paris there's no compromise, in London there is. I don't like compromise when it comes to design but unfortunately we have to do it an awful lot whether low at 400ft or 1,000ft plus.

As for economics, well....it seems Paris is pushing ahead with two 1,060ft (or was that 1,100ft now?) and another 994ft building by 2016. Now, in London we can't bring Riverside South to fruition, Three Sisters, and with anything tall we have a long waiting time to get pre-lets and get the damn thing off the ground. How does London have trouble with this and Paris does not?
1. The argument can be made that London will have the first supertall skyscraper in the EU. From the sound of that you'd think Paris was planning buildings on Burj Dubai scale. They're not, and that would be silly at this point in time for any EU country I can think of.
2. I wouldn't say the Shard has compromised on design.Make it too tall and EH's arguments would begin to become justified. A step up from 235m to 310m is a respectable one, and London will eventually get taller buildings, but for goodness sake let's enjoy the Shard for a while first, it's certainly worthy of it and it's earned it.
3. Again, London will be the first city in the EU to build a supertall skyscraper. There are currently no others under construction, and as has been proven by many projects the world over the last two years, until the core is actually rising no project is a cert. And even when a buildings half finished it can still find itself being put on hold or shortened, something else we have learned even in major cities recently.

I don't mean any disrespect to the Hermitage Towers or Paris, I really like the project, but I think London is getting a bad rap for no reason here other than 20 extra meters on a project in another city which has somehow become an aesthetic and economic determinant for London.
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Old December 12th, 2010, 02:10 AM   #394
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1. The argument can be made that London will have the first supertall skyscraper in the EU. From the sound of that you'd think Paris was planning buildings on Burj Dubai scale. They're not, and that would be silly at this point in time for any EU country I can think of.
2. I wouldn't say the Shard has compromised on design.Make it too tall and EH's arguments would begin to become justified. A step up from 235m to 310m is a respectable one, and London will eventually get taller buildings, but for goodness sake let's enjoy the Shard for a while first, it's certainly worthy of it and it's earned it.
3. Again, London will be the first city in the EU to build a supertall skyscraper. There are currently no others under construction, and as has been proven by many projects the world over the last two years, until the core is actually rising no project is a cert. And even when a buildings half finished it can still find itself being put on hold or shortened, something else we have learned even in major cities recently.

I don't mean any disrespect to the Hermitage Towers or Paris, I really like the project, but I think London is getting a bad rap for no reason here other than 20 extra meters on a project in another city which has somehow become an aesthetic and economic determinant for London.
Ok point taken on all of that and don't worry I WILL be enjoying LBT! Maybe my point is very premature. I take your point of view too with respect to all of what you've said. It does just beg the question how Paris (that as you know is nowhere near as strong in financial services) manages to get these off the ground with the vast extra floor space they'll hold when we'd be worrying about filling them. But like you say, nothing is being built just yet.

I'll put my thoughts about the future on the backburner because as you say, for now, LBT will have the crown (and a stunning one at that!). I'm enjoying this construction boom as much as you are! However, one point to note....London will NEVER have anything taller than LBT because of the CAA height regulations that I got clarification on recently from CAA themselves. Unless City airport or Heathrow is moved this will not happen. I still find this architecturally restrictive as we've already seen with 1 Canada Square and a reduced Bishopsgate. We are in for a golden couple of years though without doubt that aside!
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Old December 12th, 2010, 03:10 AM   #395
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1. The argument can be made that London will have the first supertall ....... in the EU.


Here is the first "super-tall" ever built in the EU Europe World :







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Old December 12th, 2010, 05:44 AM   #396
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Here is the first "super-tall" ever built in the EU Europe World

It is just a free standing/tall structure, it ain't skyscraper like the Shard
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Old December 12th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #397
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Ok point taken on all of that and don't worry I WILL be enjoying LBT! Maybe my point is very premature. I take your point of view too with respect to all of what you've said. It does just beg the question how Paris (that as you know is nowhere near as strong in financial services) manages to get these off the ground with the vast extra floor space they'll hold when we'd be worrying about filling them. But like you say, nothing is being built just yet.

I'll put my thoughts about the future on the backburner because as you say, for now, LBT will have the crown (and a stunning one at that!). I'm enjoying this construction boom as much as you are! However, one point to note....London will NEVER have anything taller than LBT because of the CAA height regulations that I got clarification on recently from CAA themselves. Unless City airport or Heathrow is moved this will not happen. I still find this architecturally restrictive as we've already seen with 1 Canada Square and a reduced Bishopsgate. We are in for a golden couple of years though without doubt that aside!
Paris isn't some has-been city, it's still strong financially and both cities are getting their fair share of cool skyscraper projects

As for the height restrictions, air travel will become safer, construction techniques will advance etc... etc... Never say never. If there is ever a need for taller buildings in London, they will eventually be built. One of the main problems at the moment is crane height. The buildings could go taller, but because of the crane requirement they are currently limited further. These things will eventually change, so don't worry about it For now, we can be more than happy with what we've got.

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Here is the first "super-tall" ever built in the EU Europe World :

...

I notice you made a rather selective change to my quote though
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Old December 13th, 2010, 08:55 AM   #398
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I notice you made a rather selective change to my quote though
Indeed !
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Old December 13th, 2010, 08:09 PM   #399
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They're both fantastic structures, certainly very different, but I hope the Shard can have the same impact on London as the Eiffel Tower has had on Paris. That's the best you can ask for really
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Old December 13th, 2010, 08:16 PM   #400
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Paris deserves better.
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