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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:31 AM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrLess View Post
On the flipside though an existing stadium has less chance of being held up by building/funding problems, suffered design flaws or being a white elephant after the event. In Englands case alot of the draw for the event would be the venues people associate with famous teams aswell so having them move to new ones just before the event really wouldnt make the best of that.

The recent craze for so many totally new venues comes largely from the host not FIFA IMHO as we can see by stadiums being built but not even used(LTU arena, Toyota stadium).
The Toyota Stadium was planned anyway, have you SEEN where Grampus used to play?
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:34 AM   #302
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I think some of the FIFA requirement are ridiculous !!!! its all bussiness now bahh!! also England for is ready to host a WC !!!!
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Old February 10th, 2009, 06:55 AM   #303
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It would be an 'Austerity' World Cup.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 08:19 AM   #304
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It would be an 'Austerity' World Cup.
Nothing austere about football in England. The latest broadcast rights for the Premier League fetched close to $4 billion (AUD). Must be the most successful sporting league in the world.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 12:07 PM   #305
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well!! the premiere is the best in the world not to mention for what they receive in tv broadcast $4 billion maybe more but I think in a way it sucks a lot of tv commercials during halftime like many U.S. tv sport broadcast its boring watching a lot of commercials .besides I think if England host another WC it will be a total success I remember the EURO96 without a doubt......
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:32 PM   #306
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BobDaBuilder has proven himself to be a troll when talking about these things. I'd ignore him.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:42 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Alemanniafan View Post
Great Britain has many very nice stadiums and a lot of traditional stadiums. But you don't have many very large stadia with a capacity of 50.000 plus X.
I believe that might be a serious problem for winning a Worldcup bid
. There are quite a few countries that have more of those very large stadia than the UK. And for a worldcup you would probably need at least 6 arenas wih a capacity of 50.000 and more, I believe. And the worldcup bid is not relly anything much emotional, it's mostly about money, about the big business. And if the Fifa makes more money with a worldcup somewhere else they'll just go there instead of the UK.
So as good as the infrastructure is in the uk, the stadias capacities are mostly at the rather low end for a worldcup.
I take it that you are German?

So answer me this: at the time that Germany bid for the 2006 World Cup, how many FIFA compliant stadia of over 50,000 were there in Germany?

3? 4? 5?

By 2018, England will have more than enough stadia of 50,000 +.

Wembley..................90,000
Old Trafford..............76,000 - 95,000
New Anfield...............60,000 - 75,000
Emirates...................60,000 - 70,000
St James' Park...........52,000 - 60,000
Stadium of Light.........48,000 - 60,000
Villa Park...................42,000 - 55,000
Elland Road................40,000 - 55,000

Other possible options would be proposed new or redeveloped stadiums for:

Chelsea.....................60,000 - 65,000
Tottenham.................60,000
Everton.....................55,000
Birmingham City...........55,000
Manchester City..........60,000

Of course, the bid would also include a few stadia that could only be developed to a 40,000 - 45,000 capacity (like Portsmouth, Nottingham Forest and Sheffield United, for instance). But the same problem (the lack of big stadiums beyond the big cities) exists for all potential bids apart from the USA.

Overall, England will start from a stronger position than Germany did when they successfully bid for the 2006 World Cup. And what's good for the goose.....

Last edited by JimB; February 10th, 2009 at 02:00 PM.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 05:25 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimB View Post
By 2018, England will have more than enough stadia of 50,000 +.

Wembley..................90,000
Old Trafford..............76,000 - 95,000
New Anfield...............60,000 - 75,000
Emirates...................60,000 - 70,000
St James' Park...........52,000 - 60,000
Stadium of Light.........48,000 - 60,000
Villa Park...................42,000 - 55,000
Elland Road................40,000 - 55,000

Other possible options would be proposed new or redeveloped stadiums for:

Chelsea.....................60,000 - 65,000
Tottenham.................60,000
Everton.....................55,000
Birmingham City...........55,000
Manchester City..........60,000
I don't share your optimism regarding proposed stadium projects.

This is a more realistic list of ground capacity in the year 2018

Wembley..................90,000
Old Trafford..............76,000
New Anfield...............60,000
Emirates...................60,000
St James' Park...........52,000
Stadium of Light.........48,000
Villa Park...................50,000
Elland Road................40,000

Chelsea.....................42,000
Tottenham.................55,000 if it ever gets built
Everton.....................55,000
Birmingham City...........36,000
Manchester City..........48,000

The UK is in a severe economic crisis that will last several years. Attendance figures will soar and a lot of clubs will struggle to survive. Ground redevelopments and new stadium project will be delayed or simply discarded.
Three medium sized grounds like those in Derby, Middlesbrough and Hull/Sheffield/Stoke or maybe Bristol will be enlarged by public funds to fulfil the minimum criteria.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 06:44 PM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Its AlL gUUd
are you serious?
Well my posting was meant a little provokative I admit(you know the good old soccer rivalry between Germany and England ), but I do believe the stadia in Uk are at the rather small end for a worldcup in Europe.

The thing is, you have to take the capacity of the stadia as all seaters, without terracing and at the moment you have don't have many stadia that are large enough, but of course that wil change until 2018 to some extend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JimB
I take it that you are German?

So answer me this: at the time that Germany bid for the 2006 World Cup, how many FIFA compliant stadia of over 50,000 were there in Germany?

3? 4? 5?
Well the 2006 worldcup in Gemany had an overall average attendance of the matches of 52.000 visitors.

we had these twelve worldcup stadia with the following Worldcuo capacities (all seaters):

Berlin: 72.000

Munich: 66.000

Dortmund: 65.000

Gelsenkirchen:52.000.

Stuttgart: 52.000

Hamburg: 50.000

Frankfurt am Main: 48.000

Kaiserslautern: 46.000

Cologne: 45.000

Hannover: 43.000

Leipzig: 43.000

Nürnberg: 41.000

So we had exactly 6 Stadia with a capacity of 50.000 and more seats. in the world cup 06 and in a few cases we could theoretically also have chose one or two larger stadia than we did with the ones in Leipzig, Hannover and Nürnberg.
So as you see the average attendance was 52.000 which was slightly more than 50.000

I believe England has plenty of nice stadia. But there are other countries in Europe who have a similar number of very lage stadia also.

Someone mentioned Japan as an example for smaller stadia, but Japan is not realy comparable because it's in asia and the not in Europe, so they had completely other countries to compete with there. England is going to have to win the race against countries like Spain/Portugal, maybe the Benelux countries, maybe Russia and whatever else, like Greece, Turkey... etc. So I believe England has got good, probably even very good chances, but they're surely not going to go win the bid easily if they do. The competitors aren't gonna make it easy for you. If one country hasn't got enough very large stadia, they'll just run with a joint bid like Spain and Portugal or the Benelux.
You guys here mostly sound like it's all been decided allready and you only need to find the best and biggest stadia in the country, but the trurth is, it's not and there are a number of other options in europe who could win the bid also.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 06:57 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Alemanniafan View Post
Well my posting was meant a little provokative I admit(you know the good old soccer rivalry between Germany and England ), but I do believe the stadia in Uk are at the rather small end for a worldcup in Europe.

The thing is, you have to take the capacity of the stadia as all seaters, without terracing and at the moment you have don't have many stadia that are large enough,
We don't have any terracing in England; the capacities listed for our stadiums are the capacties they would be in the world cup - and that's assuming there is no exapansion on top of this, and there is likely to be.

I think the average capacity per match could easily be over 55k in England 2018, and should be approaching 60k.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 07:11 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by RobH View Post
We don't have any terracing in England; the capacities listed for our stadiums are the capacties they would be in the world cup - and that's assuming there is no exapansion on top of this, and there is likely to be.

I think the average capacity per match could easily be over 55k in England 2018, and should be approaching 60k.
Well I believe 60k is a bit overly optimistic... but that's just my opinion.

According to Wikipedia this is what you have at the moment (and below what you might have in the future):
List of English football stadia by capacity

I personally assume an overall average of 60k per match for a WC 2018 or 2022 would be a bit overly optimistic. Don't forget the premier league and quite a few british clubs aren't doing all too well financially right now... Not every stadium is going to be built or expanded quite as big as theoretically possible. There are a lot of visions around... and some are more realistic than others.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 07:22 PM   #312
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Well I believe 60k is a bit overly optimistic... but that's just my opinion.
I don't mean an average of 60k per stadium, I mean an average of 60k per match, bearing in mind the bigger stadiums will host more often than the smaller ones.

I did some calculations yesterday based on a very conservative list of possible venues and capacities and the average attendence per match came out at 58-59k.

I don't see why if two or three of the bigger proposals come off, we shouldn't have over 60k. It's slightly optimistic but not at all unrealistic.

Quote:
Don't forget the premier league and quite a few british clubs aren't doing all too well financially right now...
I don't quite know where you got this idea from. The Premier League only last week signed a £1.8 billion TV deal for the next few seasons which is distributed between clubs. It and its clubs are doing remarakbly well financially given the economic climate. Liverpool's is perhaps the most important new stadium in an England bid and it's true they're not in the best shape they've been, but they are an exception to the overall rule as far as I can tell.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 08:06 PM   #313
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Am I correct in saying that the City of Manchester Stadium could be used because of a technicality?

Old Trafford isn't in Manchester, it's in Trafford isn't it?

That would mean

Trafford - Old Trafford (90,000~)
Manchester - CoMS (48,000)
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Old February 10th, 2009, 08:33 PM   #314
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Re: The England/Germany discussion

England's issue is the dispersal of venues and tourist-appealing metro areas. While Germany has (IIRC) nearly 2 dozen independent metro areas with more than 1M people, England really only has 6. Thus, they'll have numerous top-rate venues that will miss the chance to host WC games because of the 1-stadium per city rule. They should still be more than fine, even in near worst-case scenarios. Assuming the clubs and governments can only cobble together the minimum improvements necessary to host the event you'd be left with something like this.

Givens
90k Wembley
76k Old Trafford
60k Emirates
55k 'Pool or Everton (City would ensure at least one of the new venues is built.)
55k Sunderland (Unless St. James gets permission/funding to reach 60k)
51k Villa Park

Assumptions
43k Portsmouth
40k Bristol
40k Middlesbrough/Hull
45k Nottingham/Derby

For the group stages this would mean every venue gets three games, with an avg attendance of 55,500 per match. Knock out rounds would be played in the larger venues, meaning the avg. for the event would only increase from there. Granted Wembley's largess accounts for a lot of this but we get the drift.

Now while some of these options may not come to light surely others will, including some that would only make the event larger (Liverpool's new venue, say). I'd say the Stadium of Light gets the nod over St. James due to realism and costs efficiency, and I don't suspect Birmingham will build a 55k venue for BCFC unless they've the money and need for a domed, multi-purpose venue such as Veltins Arena. Some of those smaller venues might even include conditions that allow the stadium to be easily downsized after the event, so the likes of Portsmouth and Bristol aren't left with half empty stadiums on game days.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 08:37 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby3 View Post
Am I correct in saying that the City of Manchester Stadium could be used because of a technicality?

Old Trafford isn't in Manchester, it's in Trafford isn't it?

That would mean

Trafford - Old Trafford (90,000~)
Manchester - CoMS (48,000)
Even if it was legal I doubt the organizers and FIFA would go that route. The spirit of the rule is to have the games dispersed around the nation, and efforts like what you're suggesting would lead to a lot of political squabbling among other potential venues. FI, I don't think Stadium of Light and Saint James would both be used despite being in different cities, as they're simply too close. Ditto the possible clustering of venues around Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester and Leeds - I don't see more than one making the cut from that pool. Thus, since London will almost assuredly host 2 stadiums there will be no other metro conurbation with more than 1. As with my attempts above, the organizers will identify the sure-things within the major cities of London, Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester and then, as they've publicly stated, look to spread the wealth as best as possible throughout the rest of England.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 08:41 PM   #316
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if its an issue of "closeness" ,the Joburg venues for 2010 are within 10km of each other.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 08:49 PM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post
Re: The England/Germany discussion

England's issue is the dispersal of venues and tourist-appealing metro areas. While Germany has (IIRC) nearly 2 dozen independent metro areas with more than 1M people, England really only has 6. Thus, they'll have numerous top-rate venues that will miss the chance to host WC games because of the 1-stadium per city rule. They should still be more than fine, even in near worst-case scenarios. Assuming the clubs and governments can only cobble together the minimum improvements necessary to host the event you'd be left with something like this.

Givens
90k Wembley
76k Old Trafford
60k Emirates
55k 'Pool or Everton (City would ensure at least one of the new venues is built.)
55k Sunderland (Unless St. James gets permission/funding to reach 60k)
51k Villa Park

Assumptions
43k Portsmouth
40k Bristol
40k Middlesbrough/Hull
45k Nottingham/Derby

For the group stages this would mean every venue gets three games, with an avg attendance of 55,500 per match. Knock out rounds would be played in the larger venues, meaning the avg. for the event would only increase from there. Granted Wembley's largess accounts for a lot of this but we get the drift.

Now while some of these options may not come to light surely others will, including some that would only make the event larger (Liverpool's new venue, say). I'd say the Stadium of Light gets the nod over St. James due to realism and costs efficiency, and I don't suspect Birmingham will build a 55k venue for BCFC unless they've the money and need for a domed, multi-purpose venue such as Veltins Arena. Some of those smaller venues might even include conditions that allow the stadium to be easily downsized after the event, so the likes of Portsmouth and Bristol aren't left with half empty stadiums on game days.
Don't disagree with a lot of that and your point about England having relativley few cities of 1m people is important.

However, I strongly disagree that the Stadium of Light will be chosen over St James' Park. It might be slightly smaller than a realstic expansion of the SoL, but it's in a superior location (city centre in a city with lots to do) and is overall a much more interesting stadium to present.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:08 PM   #318
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However, I strongly disagree that the Stadium of Light will be chosen over St James' Park. It might be slightly smaller than a realstic expansion of the SoL, but it's in a superior location (city centre in a city with lots to do) and is overall a much more interesting stadium to present.
No complaints from me, and I know I've shared this discussion with others on these boards. I've heard points for either and have no complaints either way. I simply don't think the SJ expansion will happen by 2018, so it'll be dependent on what the club, city and the organizers wish to present, as I don't think both will be used. Either way it'll be a nice venue for the games.
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if its an issue of "closeness" ,the Joburg venues for 2010 are within 10km of each other.
It's not the distance between venues, per se, but the distance between the designated urban areas. and in this case, J'burg is the designated site for two venues, just as London will be for England, meaning they could be within 1 kilometer and that would be okay. The third nearby venue in Pretoria was a logistical move, too, in an effort to expose visitors to a variety of cities and subcultures where possible whereas SA doesn't have a variety of large urban areas to choose from. In England's case, they could do this but don't need to as they'll have far more options.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:17 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alemanniafan View Post
Well the 2006 worldcup in Gemany had an overall average attendance of the matches of 52.000 visitors.

we had these twelve worldcup stadia with the following Worldcuo capacities (all seaters):

Berlin: 72.000

Munich: 66.000

Dortmund: 65.000

Gelsenkirchen:52.000.

Stuttgart: 52.000

Hamburg: 50.000

Frankfurt am Main: 48.000

Kaiserslautern: 46.000

Cologne: 45.000

Hannover: 43.000

Leipzig: 43.000

Nürnberg: 41.000

So we had exactly 6 Stadia with a capacity of 50.000 and more seats. in the world cup 06 and in a few cases we could theoretically also have chose one or two larger stadia than we did with the ones in Leipzig, Hannover and Nürnberg.
So as you see the average attendance was 52.000 which was slightly more than 50.000
but even after Germany have hosted the WC with new/refurbished stadiums, England currently still has larger stadia then Germany. So what are you talking about? just off the top of my head we have 4 stadiums over 60,000 and your largest stadium was only 72,000. So i don't see how you can support your arguement with Germany's stadia (as nice as they are).

Also by 2018 we should have larger stadium capacity aswell.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 09:36 PM   #320
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Can somebdy make a EXTREME list? For example

Wembley 90,000-100,000 (lowering pitch and adding 3-5 rows)
Old Trafford: 90-92,000
Liverpool: 73,000
Newcastle: 60,000 or even 80,000?

etc

So what would be the max. possible capacity
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