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Old March 4th, 2009, 05:12 AM   #581
Benjuk
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Originally Posted by MoreOrLess View Post
Whether its "fair" of not there would be political capital to be made from it just as there is by having venues for the olyimpic football there in 2012.

I'm not saying theres nothing standing in the way of it but the outright dismissals here are more down to peoples nationism and natural desire to see there local venues used IMHO. A German WC with 1 polish venue would not be in the best interests of any german organisation involved and would damage the image of the event, an English WC with 1 welsh and Scottish venue would be in the interests of many and not be nearly as damaging, maybe even a positive.
The key difference here is that the Olympics is being hosted by Great Britain, whilst the World Cup is (hopefully) to be hosted by England. A British bid can include venues in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. An English bid should only include English venues.
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Old March 4th, 2009, 07:20 AM   #582
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Don't take this as me having a go btw Mo. I know your posts only try to reflect FIFA's thinking and your country having gone through this process means you know a lot about it - so your contribution is valued.
Not at all. I'm not pro FIFA or pro sponsor.

I just thought that its best many find out about FIFA's requirements sooner rather than later. Its a nasty surprise at times but there are requirements and cities rush to sign those contracts.
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Old March 4th, 2009, 03:11 PM   #583
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The key difference here is that the Olympics is being hosted by Great Britain, whilst the World Cup is (hopefully) to be hosted by England.
Strictly speaking, the Olympics are being hosted by London - under IOC rules cities bid, not countries
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Old March 4th, 2009, 03:46 PM   #584
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Mo, do you have a link or knowledge of which criterias FIFA are looking at when choosing the winning bid in november 2010? And if a bid is containing stadia that are not built yet (extremely likely), does the winner have to give any guarantees that those particular stadia actually will be built?
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Old March 4th, 2009, 04:38 PM   #585
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Mo, do you have a link or knowledge of which criterias FIFA are looking at when choosing the winning bid in november 2010? And if a bid is containing stadia that are not built yet (extremely likely), does the winner have to give any guarantees that those particular stadia actually will be built?
In theory FIFA members choose the best bid, but essentially they vote for their own reasons.

I could be wrong, but the only time I can think of when a guarantee regarding a stadium is in place is after the host is announced.

Once the final set of venues are chosen, host cities sign the stadium use agreement with FIFA detailing FIFA's needs in terms of the venue and the use of the venue during the world cup etc.

Until the bid is announced, England is simly presenting a possible bid of possible venues.

South Africa bid with more existing stadia to provide more security to FIFA but have chosen( dictated by sponsors) to build new venues in some cases after the bid.
Those new venues are then present in the stadium use agreement.

Unlike the IOC, and again, I could be wrong, most FIFA guarantees take place after the host is announced, where as the IOC requires many guarantees during the bid phase.

I think this is why we saw countries like Morocco bidding with proposed new stadia each of the 3 times they bid which are still not under construction or complete after prob 15 years.

Last edited by Mo Rush; March 4th, 2009 at 04:45 PM.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 01:30 AM   #586
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This guy is such a ****! I reckon we'll have an uphill battle to host the World Cup in 2018; especially with this idiot in charge of FIFA. Look at his latest rant about English football and the Premier League.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7927410.stm

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Blatter also believes that the England's top flight has an unhealthy imbalance of power, with only a handful of clubs contesting the title.

"In a competition where two-thirds or three-quarters of the participants in the league play not to be first, but not to be relegated, there is something wrong," he added.
Unlike the Scottish, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, German, Turkish, Ukranian, French and Portugese leagues?
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Old March 6th, 2009, 01:45 AM   #587
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This guy is such a ****! I reckon we'll have an uphill battle to host the World Cup in 2018; especially with this idiot in charge of FIFA. Look at his latest rant about English football and the Premier League.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7927410.stm



Unlike the Scottish, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, German, Turkish, Ukranian, French and Portugese leagues?
He has a slight point.

While it's true to say that only a limited number of clubs could ever hope to win the title in most countries, it's only in England where the top four have had a virtual monopoly on Champions League places.

In Spain, Germany, Italy, Holland, France et al, any number of clubs could qualify for the Champions League.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 01:55 AM   #588
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This guy is such a ****! I reckon we'll have an uphill battle to host the World Cup in 2018; especially with this idiot in charge of FIFA. Look at his latest rant about English football and the Premier League.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7927410.stm



Unlike the Scottish, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, German, Turkish, Ukranian, French and Portugese leagues?
Scottish league i will concede

Italian league... since the prem begun more different italian teams have won serie a than English. 5-4. and in england would a small team like udinese qualify for the competition???

Spanish League. What the league where this decade half the teams have played and been successful in the champions league. i can remember Real sociedad, barcelona, celta vigo, valencia, deportivo, atletico madrid, real madrid and villareal all making the knock out stages and osusana and real betis making the groups.

Dutch league... Feyenoord haven't won the title since 99 and are mid table. AZ are 9 points clear of FC twente. And before you say it is a 1 year fluke. AZ should've won the title 2 years ago, but somehow managed to lose to a bottom end side on the last day of the season. Competition is high in Holland.

German League yes bayern win the title every other year ish. but regularly different teams challenge and different teams win. Dortmund, Bremen and Stuttgart this decade and lest we forget schalke and bayer leverkusen had last day near misses. Loads of different teams have played in the champions league too.

Turkish league... Top two this season Sivvaspor and Trbszonspor. Provincial sides battle for the title, but rarely win it.

Ukrainian league... why are you comparing this league to the premier league?? The dominance is based upon the natural order of things, adn was the same before the money and woud be the same after.

French League... although Lyon win the title every year, they get pushed most seasons and most seasons by different teams, and before lyon won it no team retained the title for nearly a decade, lots of first time champions (auxerre, lens, lyon).

Portuguese league. The country is too small and the clubs are too big. It's a simple problem, although that didnt stop boavista challenging and winning the title a few years back, and guimaraes qualifying for the champions league last season.

Since the big 4 dominance, the team breaking the big 4 has only been pushing for fourth not the title. and it's been one team. Look what happened to Leeds trying to keep up and Newcastle are next. Teams other than the top four are largely challenging for nothing, so sepp blatters comments are valid!!!
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Old March 6th, 2009, 01:59 AM   #589
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He has a slight point.

While it's true to say that only a limited number of clubs could ever hope to win the title in most countries, it's only in England where the top four have had a virtual monopoly on Champions League places.

In Spain, Germany, Italy, Holland, France et al, any number of clubs could qualify for the Champions League.
On reflection, maybe he does have a point. Money doesn't always buy you success though; just look at Tottenham!
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Old March 6th, 2009, 03:18 AM   #590
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On reflection, maybe he does have a point. Money doesn't always buy you success though; just look at Tottenham!
Spurs have a lot of money relative to most clubs - because they are very well run financially and because they have such a large and loyal fan base.

But even Spurs cannot begin to compete financially with Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal.

Man City will stir things up, though, with their obscene oil wealth.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 03:22 AM   #591
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So Mo....are to believe that, if the Spain / Portugal bid was to win the vote to host the 2018 World Cup, the Bernabeu will NOT be among the selected stadiums? After all, it is surrounded by buildings and major roads.

Somehow, I think FIFA will find a way around having their beloved tents immediately adjacent to the stadium. They would be made to look irredeemably foolish if they were to exclude one of the greatest and most iconic stadiums in all of world football (if not THE greatest and most iconic) on the basis of the lack of space to erect a few sheets of canvass.
There's an athletic stadium being built in Madrid. Atletico will move there once it's finished. And this will probably Madrid's World Cup venue.

FIFAs claim for extraordinary space within and outside of stadiums is the reason why I tried to tell you that the Eastlands, the Stadium of Light and even the Olympic Stadium in Stratford are more likely venues than Old Trafford, St James' Park and Ashburton Grove.

A ground that holds 50'000 fans every other week is not what FIFA is asking for. They are looking for venues that can cater 15'000 corporates and another 5'000 media staff. Todays World Cup is not meant to be for fans. Well, maybe on TV but not close to the action.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 03:33 AM   #592
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There's an athletic stadium being built in Madrid. Atletico will move there once it's finished. And this will probably Madrid's World Cup venue.

FIFAs claim for extraordinary space within and outside of stadiums is the reason why I tried to tell you that the Eastlands, the Stadium of Light and even the Olympic Stadium in Stratford are more likely venues than Old Trafford, St James' Park and Ashburton Grove.

A ground that holds 50'000 fans every other week is not what FIFA is asking for. They are looking for venues that can cater 15'000 corporates and another 5'000 media staff. Todays World Cup is not meant to be for fans. Well, maybe on TV but not close to the action.
If that is true (and I somehow doubt it), then FIFA will have made themselves look very foolish indeed. They would hold a World Cup final in a 70-75K athletics stadium with no history rather than in what is, for my money, the most perfect football stadium in the world? Really? The Santiago Bernabeu is dripping in history, character and class. It also happens to hold 5-10K more than the proposed new athletics stadium.

Hmm....I somehow think that FIFA will relax their stringent rules. A World Cup in Spain without using the Bernabeu would be madness and it would diminish both the stature and the credibility of the tournament.

And that's the last thing that FIFA would want. Not least because sponsors would far rather that they are associated with the Bernabeu and the magical name that is Real Madrid.

Same goes for Old Trafford by the way.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 03:46 AM   #593
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I'd expect the Camp Nou to host a Spanish final.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 04:05 AM   #594
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I'd expect the Camp Nou to host a Spanish final.
Maybe. Maybe not. I suppose that the Bernabeu did host the final in 1982 so, if the Spain / Portugal bid is successful, it might be the Camp Nou's turn this time around.

Neverthless, a Madrid stadium would then host one of the semi finals. And I'd be very surprised if FIFA and their sponsors didn't want that stadium to be the Bernabeu.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 04:57 AM   #595
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Scottish league i will concede

Italian league... since the prem begun more different italian teams have won serie a than English. 5-4. and in england would a small team like udinese qualify for the competition???

Spanish League. What the league where this decade half the teams have played and been successful in the champions league. i can remember Real sociedad, barcelona, celta vigo, valencia, deportivo, atletico madrid, real madrid and villareal all making the knock out stages and osusana and real betis making the groups.

Dutch league... Feyenoord haven't won the title since 99 and are mid table. AZ are 9 points clear of FC twente. And before you say it is a 1 year fluke. AZ should've won the title 2 years ago, but somehow managed to lose to a bottom end side on the last day of the season. Competition is high in Holland.

German League yes bayern win the title every other year ish. but regularly different teams challenge and different teams win. Dortmund, Bremen and Stuttgart this decade and lest we forget schalke and bayer leverkusen had last day near misses. Loads of different teams have played in the champions league too.

Turkish league... Top two this season Sivvaspor and Trbszonspor. Provincial sides battle for the title, but rarely win it.

Ukrainian league... why are you comparing this league to the premier league?? The dominance is based upon the natural order of things, adn was the same before the money and woud be the same after.

French League... although Lyon win the title every year, they get pushed most seasons and most seasons by different teams, and before lyon won it no team retained the title for nearly a decade, lots of first time champions (auxerre, lens, lyon).

Portuguese league. The country is too small and the clubs are too big. It's a simple problem, although that didnt stop boavista challenging and winning the title a few years back, and guimaraes qualifying for the champions league last season.

Since the big 4 dominance, the team breaking the big 4 has only been pushing for fourth not the title. and it's been one team. Look what happened to Leeds trying to keep up and Newcastle are next. Teams other than the top four are largely challenging for nothing, so sepp blatters comments are valid!!!
The marked difference between the Premiership and the rest can be put into a different context. Yes, the big 4 do dominate in England, but they also dominate in Europe. Three teams in the semis last season and all four teams have been in the actual CL final over the past few years.

So it's hardly fair expecting other teams in England to contest the domestic title when all European clubs are finding it almost impossible to compete with United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal!

Maybe Septic Bladder should keep his trap, firmly shut
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Old March 6th, 2009, 06:33 AM   #596
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The marked difference between the Premiership and the rest can be put into a different context. Yes, the big 4 do dominate in England, but they also dominate in Europe. Three teams in the semis last season and all four teams have been in the actual CL final over the past few years.

So it's hardly fair expecting other teams in England to contest the domestic title when all European clubs are finding it almost impossible to compete with United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal!

Maybe Septic Bladder should keep his trap, firmly shut

Bullshit

It's a knockout competition, anything can happen!!!

When Arsenal were clearly the best team in Europe they lost to Chelsea in the quarters who lost to monaco who lost to Porto FFS. none of those teams won their domestic league that season.

Manchester united won last year through luck pure and simple. The barcelona game???? The final as well was a joke!

Liverpool have never been the best team or one of the four best teams in Europe at all for the past 4 years. yet have reached 1 semi and 2 finals.

And all european teams aren't struggling. The luck is going the right way at the right times. Chelsea finished runners up to Roma and ARsenal to Porto. come on sheesh!
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Old March 6th, 2009, 03:33 PM   #597
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I'd expect the Camp Nou to host a Spanish final.
All the sources I've read say it'll be in Madrid.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 04:20 PM   #598
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Maybe. Maybe not. I suppose that the Bernabeu did host the final in 1982 so, if the Spain / Portugal bid is successful, it might be the Camp Nou's turn this time around.

Neverthless, a Madrid stadium would then host one of the semi finals. And I'd be very surprised if FIFA and their sponsors didn't want that stadium to be the Bernabeu.
But Bernabeu's capacity is just 80,354.
AT WC you need more media.
At the 3rd tier the seats do not have space (2,5cm) between them.

WC cap. could be maybe around 75-78k
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Old March 6th, 2009, 08:16 PM   #599
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But Bernabeu's capacity is just 80,354.
AT WC you need more media.
At the 3rd tier the seats do not have space (2,5cm) between them.

WC cap. could be maybe around 75-78k
Again, I would be surprised if FIFA stuck to their own ridiculous rules. To have a World Cup in Spain and not use the Bernabeu would be the biggest own goal of all time.
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Old March 6th, 2009, 08:43 PM   #600
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He has a slight point.

While it's true to say that only a limited number of clubs could ever hope to win the title in most countries, it's only in England where the top four have had a virtual monopoly on Champions League places.

In Spain, Germany, Italy, Holland, France et al, any number of clubs could qualify for the Champions League.
Personally I think alot of thats down to there being fewer big sides in those nations and the way clubs are run. In Spain and Italy espeically alot more power rests with the chairman/president, the players and even the fans rather than the manager. That means you rarely if ever get long peroids of stability as Fergerson, Wegner and to a lesser degree Benetiz have brought or the power that they and The Speical One had over there players.

Finanically the premiership is actually vastly more even than the spainish league, just look at last seasons top 20 club rich list...

1 (1) Real Madrid £289.6million
2 (2) Manchester United £257.1m
3 (3) FC Barcelona £244.4m
4 (7) Bayern Munich £233.8m
5 (4) Chelsea £212.9m
6 (5) Arsenal £209.3m
7 (8) Liverpool £167.0m
8 (6) AC Milan £165.8m
9 (11) AS Roma £138.9m
10 (9) Internazionale £136.9m
11 (12) Juventus £132.6m
12 (13) Lyon £123.3m
13 (16) Schalke 04 £117.5m
14 (10) Tottenham £114.8m
15 (15) Hamburg £101.3m
16 (19) Marseille £100.4m
17 (14) Newcastle £99.4m
18 (-) Stuttgart £88.3m
19 (-) Fenerbahce £88.1m
20 (-) Manchester City £82.3m

Spurs are £50 million behind Liverpool but the 3rd richest spainish team(Valencia I'd guess) arent even on the list, thats a gap of over £160 million or more than 3 times the turnover. The only reason Real and Barca havent won every title for years is that the managers never far from being fired due to a couple of bad results or failing out with players and have ti deal with signings based on winning presidential elections or selling shirts.
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