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Old March 6th, 2009, 09:39 PM   #601
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"In a competition where two-thirds or three-quarters of the participants in the league play not to be first, but not to be relegated, there is something wrong," he added.
No there isn't - it's called results. There's nothing wrong with this scenario; it's just what the league happens to look like this season after roughly 200 games of football. In past seasons there have been two or three clubs cut adrift and more competition towards the top. It's just the way football goes - do we really need to read anything more into it than that?!

I wonder about Blatter sometimes.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 01:20 AM   #602
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Bullshit...
Oh boy, another person who is allowed to give his views and no one else can! Read my post again and tell me where the bullshit is? Over the past few years English clubs have dominated in Europe. That is a fact not bullshit. With at least one team in each final since '05.

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It's a knockout competition, anything can happen!!!
No shit Sherlock, and I do love all those quaint football quotes!

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Manchester united won last year through luck pure and simple. The barcelona game???? The final as well was a joke!
We played the likes of Roma, Lyon and Barcelona and were unbeaten throughout the competion, no other team was.

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Liverpool have never been the best team or one of the four best teams in Europe at all for the past 4 years. yet have reached 1 semi and 2 finals.
They never look like winning the domestic title, but put them up against other countries teams and they more than hold their on. In recent years they have disposed of pretty much every European team they have played (hurts me to say). And they are ranked at number 1 on uefa's current system, so they must be up there..

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And all european teams aren't struggling.
Hmmm, well Englands 'big four' were pitted against Inter, Juve, Real and Roma. In other words, most of the cream of Europe and although no one is through yet, I'd rather be in the 'big fours' shoes then their European counterparts after the first leg.

So you come on sheesh!
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Old March 7th, 2009, 04:57 AM   #603
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Oh boy, another person who is allowed to give his views and no one else can! Read my post again and tell me where the bullshit is? Over the past few years English clubs have dominated in Europe. That is a fact not bullshit. With at least one team in each final since '05.
What was bullshit was the fact you said english top 4 dominate europe, and if they do it's only because they stockpile the best foreign talent unlike (bar real madrid and inter) the big teams from other countries.

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No shit Sherlock, and I do love all those quaint football quotes!
Hence why winning it doesn't prove who the best team is, duh

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We played the likes of Roma, Lyon and Barcelona and were unbeaten throughout the competion, no other team was.
DO you actually recall how those games played out, at each round you were extremely lucky. You could and should have lost.

Lyon and roma were even games, where the luck ran for you. De rossi doesn't miss that pen and the game changes.

Barcelona haha, man united were outplayed home and away and took their only real chance.

The final against chelsea was a joke, they outplayed you. Terry doesn't slip and the rest is hitory.

The point is, it's a knock out competition. It doesn't prove who is better!!!


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They never look like winning the domestic title, but put them up against other countries teams and they more than hold their on. In recent years they have disposed of pretty much every European team they have played (hurts me to say). And they are ranked at number 1 on uefa's current system, so they must be up there..
And that explains how they managed to beat a superior chelsea side in 2 semi finals?? And dodgly and very luckily beating Arsenal despite being beaten home and away. English clubs

And on foreign clubs. They some how mange to beat milan, despite being battered and scoring their only three chances, on penalties i must. The season after they lost to Benfica (yes benfica). They fluked a victory against Barcelona and did you watch the real madrid game??

They rank as number 1 because they have reached 2 finals and a semi in the last 4 years, but they have done that because Liverpool are unbelievably lucky, luck plays a massive part in knockout games!! Hence why Liverpool rarely show up in League tables.


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Hmmm, well Englands 'big four' were pitted against Inter, Juve, Real and Roma. In other words, most of the cream of Europe and although no one is through yet, I'd rather be in the 'big fours' shoes then their European counterparts after the first leg.

So you come on sheesh!
I'd rather been in inter's shoes than man united's. Any goal and Man united have to score twice. Inter score first and early and the attack talent they have could put the game to bed. The game is evenly balanced.

Juve who are rebuilding after being in serie B two years ago. The cream of Europe in name only. They are a good side however, and dominated chelsea and are in a very good position to go through

I have mentioned Liverpool and their stupid luckyness

And the Arsenal well hmm it's a 50/50 game, we are both lying outside of the 4 in our leagues.

Last edited by bigbossman; March 7th, 2009 at 05:02 AM.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 05:50 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post

...at each round you were extremely lucky.

...Lyon and roma were even games, where the luck ran for you.

...Barcelona haha, man united were outplayed home and away and took their only real chance.

...The final against chelsea was a joke, they outplayed you.

...And that explains how Liverpool managed to beat a superior chelsea side

...And dodgly and very luckily beating Arsenal despite being beaten home and away.

...Liverpool some how mange to beat milan.

...They fluked a victory against Barcelona and did you watch the real madrid game??

...but they have done that because Liverpool are unbelievably lucky

...I have mentioned Liverpool and their stupid luckyness
So your whole argument is English clubs have been lucky over the past four or so years.

Of course luck has a part to play in any sport. When Arsenal went a whole season unbeaten to win the league, do you really believe you didn't have any luck during that spell? So whats your point?

You are detracting from my original point bbm. It's hardly fair when Blatter criticises the English Premier league and the fact four clubs seem to dominate it, when the rest of Europe is also struggling to break their recent monopoly. Be it pure luck (as you claim) or whatever. He has incredible timing when you consider Villa are giving your boys a run for their money, and I'm sure Man City will be a force next season. If either of those come good we will see a change in things.

And anyway, what possible bearing does this have to fifa and World Cup bids? Do we hear Blatter voicing concerns over Spains racist problems for example, or any other nations internal problems?
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Last edited by KiwiBrit; March 7th, 2009 at 05:58 AM.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 09:02 PM   #605
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No person shall, except with the prior approval of the City Manager, and to the extent applicable and within the area of jurisdiction of the City, conduct any advertising activity on any public advertising media –

(a) during the final draw and for a period of two weeks immediately prior to the final draw;

(b) during the period of the Competition and for a period of 2 weeks immediately prior to the first match and 2 weeks immediately following the final match,

(c) in the following areas -

(i) immediately outside or surrounding airports;
(ii) in or immediately outside or surrounding main train stations; and
(iii) within a 1 kilometre radius of the central business district of the area of jurisdiction of the City or as demarcated by the City Manager; and
(iv) to the extent the City has jurisdiction, on the principal routes from the airport and main train stations to the central business district of the area of jurisdiction of the City and to the stadium.
OT for this thread, but it will interesting to see how São Paulo and Morumbi treats this. Same goes for space availability regarding hospitality tents etc.
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Old March 7th, 2009, 11:28 PM   #606
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So your whole argument is English clubs have been lucky over the past four or so years.

Of course luck has a part to play in any sport. When Arsenal went a whole season unbeaten to win the league, do you really believe you didn't have any luck during that spell? So whats your point?

You are detracting from my original point bbm. It's hardly fair when Blatter criticises the English Premier league and the fact four clubs seem to dominate it, when the rest of Europe is also struggling to break their recent monopoly. Be it pure luck (as you claim) or whatever. He has incredible timing when you consider Villa are giving your boys a run for their money, and I'm sure Man City will be a force next season. If either of those come good we will see a change in things.

And anyway, what possible bearing does this have to fifa and World Cup bids? Do we hear Blatter voicing concerns over Spains racist problems for example, or any other nations internal problems?
Plus of course whether your a fan of it or not whats shaken up the prem in recent years has been foreign money, it allowed Chelsea to win the title twice and may do the same with Man City.

What we should have laws to stop is the kind of dodgy leveraged takeovers that have happened at Man Utd and Liverpool where no new money at all has been put in. Blatters comments about those teams spending themselves into debt don't make sense, its actually the debt there owners fostered on them thats stopping them from spending even more.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 12:14 AM   #607
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Plus of course whether your a fan of it or not whats shaken up the prem in recent years has been foreign money, it allowed Chelsea to win the title twice and may do the same with Man City.

What we should have laws to stop is the kind of dodgy leveraged takeovers that have happened at Man Utd and Liverpool where no new money at all has been put in. Blatters comments about those teams spending themselves into debt don't make sense, its actually the debt there owners fostered on them thats stopping them from spending even more.
spot on
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Old March 8th, 2009, 12:40 AM   #608
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OT for this thread, but it will interesting to see how São Paulo and Morumbi treats this. Same goes for space availability regarding hospitality tents etc.
Either the city removes it or FIFA send people to sue the pants of businesses or FIFA send in its own people to tear it down.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 12:40 AM   #609
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Even thought it's actually pretty of topic. I personally believe blatters statement about the Premierleague is absolutely right.

And to show you why I think so the actual standings in the Bundesliga and in the Premier League:

Bundesliga:
Place Team matches -wins -draws - losses - goals - Points - qualification
1 Hertha BSC 23 14 -4 -5 38:27 46 CL
2 1899 Hoffenheim 23 12 -6 -5 49:31 42 CL
Bayern München 23 12 -6 -5 49:31 42 CL -Qual.
4 VfL Wolfsburg 23 12 -6 -5 46:28 42 UEFA -Cup
5 Hamburger SV 23 13 -3 -7 35:35 42 UEFA -Cup
6 VfB Stuttgart 23 11 -6 -6 42:32 39
7 FC Schalke 04 23 10 -7 -6 30:21 37
8 Bayer Leverkusen 22 11 -3 -8 44:30 36

Premier League: home away
Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS
1 Man Utd 27 12 1 0 30 5 8 4 2 18 7 36 65
2 Chelsea 28 7 5 2 23 8 10 2 2 25 8 32 58
3 Liverpool 28 8 6 0 22 8 8 4 2 23 12 25 58
4 Aston Villa 28 5 7 2 20 15 10 0 4 22 14 13 52
5 Arsenal 28 7 5 2 18 11 6 5 3 23 15 15 49
6 Everton 28 5 5 4 20 16 7 4 3 16 12 8 45
7 West Ham 28 7 1 6 19 17 4 5 5 15 17 0 39
8 Man City 28 9 0 5 30 12 1 5 8 15 24 9 35

Now you try predicting who's gonna win the title in the Bundesliga and in the premier league and then you tell me which league is more predictable and which one is going to be a closer call.
Oh, and in case you don't know Hoffenheim they're playing their first season in the Bundesliga. (mostly financed by Dietmar Hopp a billionaire, a founder of the softwarecompany SAP)
In my opinion Blatter is completely right with his statement, it's not good for a league to allways only be dominated by a handfull of top teams it's much more interesting and fun to watch a league where almost anyone may win like the Bundesliga and Herta BSC didn#t do all that well in the past decade. And the Hamburger SV like the Vfl Wolfsburg also was one of the many teams that really were somewhat worried they might actually drop out of the first league, two seasons ago, when half of the league battled to remain in.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 12:58 AM   #610
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Either the city removes it or FIFA send people to sue the pants of businesses or FIFA send in its own people to tear it down.
That move might be patently illegal, however. If someone has a billboard that's been in place for years it's unlawful for someone to come along and say that "Due to outside forces that you had nothing to do with or any say over, you need to close down this sign/business." Someone tried that in the States and they'd learn how quick the lawyers can be in this law-suit happy country.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 01:16 AM   #611
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In my opinion Blatter is completely right with his statement, it's not good for a league to allways only be dominated by a handfull of top teams it's much more interesting and fun to watch a league where almost anyone may win like the Bundesliga and Herta BSC didn#t do all that well in the past decade.
While few would disagree that variety is more appealing, Blatter's motives are as pure as porn star's virtue. Never mind the fact that the financial gaps between the giants and lessers of Serie A and La Liga is geometrically worse than what's found in England, especially when Italy featured TV contracts by team, Blatter's simply jealous and delusional that he can somehow wave a wand and make other leagues as globally popular. He's also particularly against the Premiership and the FA because the bigger clubs there still have support from the other clubs in fighting FIFA's despotic lording over international schedules, competition and petty rules.

The issue with the Premiership and the Big Four is that the number of big clubs matches the allotment of Champions League berths, which also happens to be the largest available. Germany's lack of a 2nd/3rd "big" clubs means their title chase will always look interesting. Ditto Spain, where no one has consistently kept pace with Madrid and Barca. Meanwhile, Italians could care less about clubs outside Juve and the pairs in Milan and Rome but at least that's five, meaning some variety among their oligopoly. If England had a fifth power or only three, this would be a non issue because it wouldn't appear like a monopoly on ECL berths.

Most importantly no one is illegally preventing these other leagues from assuming the crown of popularity from the premiership, so dumping on the Premiership is left simply to taste. When you also recognize that most Prem clubs gain their larger % of their wealth through gameday sales then it's disingenuous for fans of other leagues to cry foul.
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What we should have laws to stop is the kind of dodgy leveraged takeovers that have happened at Man Utd and Liverpool where no new money at all has been put in.
More important, IMO, are rules preventing the use of outside revenues to fund club operations. This would in turn force the fiscal prudence we all desire, minimize the impacts of sugar daddies that skew the markets and ultimately make takeovers based on more sound figures. Plus, if we had this Chelsea would quickly be realized as the fraud they are and "voila!" problem solved.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 03:27 AM   #612
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So your whole argument is English clubs have been lucky over the past four or so years.
No your argument was based on the fact English teams dominate a knock out competition.

and i said that Knock out competitions are a lottery which any team can win using recent winners as an example.

Quote:
Of course luck has a part to play in any sport. When Arsenal went a whole season unbeaten to win the league, do you really believe you didn't have any luck during that spell? So whats your point?
And you are bringing Arsenal's 2003/04 season into this why?? Did i ever say that proved anything, we didn't get the records point total etc etc. In theory you can remain undefeated and be relegated. The point is Leagues don't and never will prove who the best team is. The best team might win it. But all they prove is who has the strongest squad and who is the most consistent.

read this it might help you http://www.footbo.com/Users/Supermj/...ue_table_lie3f

Quote:
You are detracting from my original point bbm. It's hardly fair when Blatter criticises the English Premier league and the fact four clubs seem to dominate it, when the rest of Europe is also struggling to break their recent monopoly
Like i said knock out competition. 2 seasons ago the 3 of the four semi finalist were english and none of them one it. Milan who were the 3rd (8 points deducted placed them 4th) best team in Italy came on top of the three best teams in England. It proved nothing then and proves nothing now. The fact that the champions of england were handed their arse in the semis doesn't prove anything either.

The only to go someway of proving is to have a league, and that is extremely unlikely

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Be it pure luck (as you claim) or whatever. He has incredible timing when you consider Villa are giving your boys a run for their money, and I'm sure Man City will be a force next season. If either of those come good we will see a change in things.
Villa are only competing because The Arsenal have half of our starting 11 out injured. Which would devastate any team. And the fact that we are three points behind as they are returning. Points to nothing but the status quo being retained.

And on man city, there will be a risestince to them, they are new money. kaka started, messi will continue. I can see what established stars they will sign, at least with mark hughes at the helm. They will have to build success the old fashioned way.

Quote:
And anyway, what possible bearing does this have to fifa and World Cup bids? Do we hear Blatter voicing concerns over Spains racist problems for example, or any other nations internal problems?
I take it you read the press of Spain, italy etc etc. In England we focus solely on English football hence why "we" are arrogant enough to believe our own hype at the world cup etc. The point is Sepp blatter may have made his views known on racist problems in spain, the fact that we only hear him complain about the prem is because that's all he does with regards to england.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 03:32 AM   #613
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Even thought it's actually pretty of topic. I personally believe blatters statement about the Premierleague is absolutely right.
exactly

Quote:
And to show you why I think so the actual standings in the Bundesliga and in the Premier League:

Bundesliga:
Place Team matches -wins -draws - losses - goals - Points - qualification
1 Hertha BSC 23 14 -4 -5 38:27 46 CL
2 1899 Hoffenheim 23 12 -6 -5 49:31 42 CL
Bayern München 23 12 -6 -5 49:31 42 CL -Qual.
4 VfL Wolfsburg 23 12 -6 -5 46:28 42 UEFA -Cup
5 Hamburger SV 23 13 -3 -7 35:35 42 UEFA -Cup
6 VfB Stuttgart 23 11 -6 -6 42:32 39
7 FC Schalke 04 23 10 -7 -6 30:21 37
8 Bayer Leverkusen 22 11 -3 -8 44:30 36

Premier League: home away
Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS
1 Man Utd 27 12 1 0 30 5 8 4 2 18 7 36 65
2 Chelsea 28 7 5 2 23 8 10 2 2 25 8 32 58
3 Liverpool 28 8 6 0 22 8 8 4 2 23 12 25 58
4 Aston Villa 28 5 7 2 20 15 10 0 4 22 14 13 52
5 Arsenal 28 7 5 2 18 11 6 5 3 23 15 15 49
6 Everton 28 5 5 4 20 16 7 4 3 16 12 8 45
7 West Ham 28 7 1 6 19 17 4 5 5 15 17 0 39
8 Man City 28 9 0 5 30 12 1 5 8 15 24 9 35

Now you try predicting who's gonna win the title in the Bundesliga and in the premier league and then you tell me which league is more predictable and which one is going to be a closer call.
exactly, The success of the bundesliga in attendance terms and excitement terms, is down to it being realistic, in terms of affordability, the retention of terracing and the unpredictability of the championship.

Quote:
Oh, and in case you don't know Hoffenheim they're playing their first season in the Bundesliga. (mostly financed by Dietmar Hopp a billionaire, a founder of the softwarecompany SAP)
i do hope hoffenheim don't win it!!

Quote:
In my opinion Blatter is completely right with his statement, it's not good for a league to allways only be dominated by a handfull of top teams it's much more interesting and fun to watch a league where almost anyone may win like the Bundesliga and Herta BSC didn#t do all that well in the past decade. And the Hamburger SV like the Vfl Wolfsburg also was one of the many teams that really were somewhat worried they might actually drop out of the first league, two seasons ago, when half of the league battled to remain in.
Exactly, the big premier league clubs should realise if they continue to dominate in this way the financial viability of the product will decline as people lose interest. imho the essence of sport as a business is not increasing individual wealth independently (like as now) but increasing indivual wealth by increasing the collective wealth of the league (taking your slice from that). You do that through the prospect of unpredicatablity and greater competition, something which the premier league unfortunately lacks.
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Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post
While few would disagree that variety is more appealing, Blatter's motives are as pure as porn star's virtue. Never mind the fact that the financial gaps between the giants and lessers of Serie A and La Liga is geometrically worse than what's found in England, especially when Italy featured TV contracts by team,
But that is the only real disparity, and is a joke agreed. ALthough i have never heard blatters views on it, it doesn't mean he hasn't expressed any.

ALthough i don't think he is referring to Big and small clubs within specific countries. I think he understands there will always be big and small clubs. What he is referring to is the best talent being stock piled at the biggest clubs in one country, which is wrong.

Quote:
Blatter's simply jealous and delusional that he can somehow wave a wand and make other leagues as globally popular. He's also particularly against the Premiership and the FA because the bigger clubs there still have support from the other clubs in fighting FIFA's despotic lording over international schedules, competition and petty rules.
The premier league is only globally popular because it has financial clout. Take away this financial clout with rules like 6+5 and the best non european stars would be evenly distributed amongst the major european leagues, and the popularity of the premier league would decline somewhat. The fact is people aren't watching because it's manchester united vs tottenham. They are watching because the game is an international circus, not representative of english football with the exception being the frenetic pace.

Quote:
The issue with the Premiership and the Big Four is that the number of big clubs matches the allotment of Champions League berths, which also happens to be the largest available.
When we had three births there was a genuine big 6. Arsenal, chelsea, Liveprool, Newcastle, MAchester united and Leeds, and this was by no means exclusive. And the fact that the same 3 didn't qualify every season meant that they didn't mop up the TV revenue and meant competition was greater. The theme would be to decrease the amount of places per big league from 4 to 3 or ideally 2, that will neve happen though.

Quote:
Germany's lack of a 2nd/3rd "big" clubs means their title chase will always look interesting.
Germany doesn't lack big clubs. Schalke, Dortmund, Hamburg etc are all big clubs. The fact is Bayern didn't finish in the top 3, 2 seasons ago (when was the last time man utd didn't??), and the champions that season came mid table the season after and before. The league is more competitive.

Quote:
Ditto Spain, where no one has consistently kept pace with Madrid and Barca.
The spanish league is very competive. Real madrid and Barcelona regurlarly come outside the top two. Barca specifically, with the exception of the messi/ronaldinho years barcelona have been off the pace this decade. Playing in the uefa cup and battling for 4th.

Quote:
Meanwhile, Italians could care less about clubs outside Juve and the pairs in Milan and Rome but at least that's five,
I take it you've never heard of the seven sisters?? the 5 you mentioned plus fiorentina and either napoli or parma. Napoli are italy's fourth biggest club, bigger than Roma. The fact that clubs like bologna, Udinese, Genoa and sampdoria have challenged for champions league places in recent years also highlights the competitiveness.

Quote:
meaning some variety among their oligopoly. If England had a fifth power or only three, this would be a non issue because it wouldn't appear like a monopoly on ECL berths.
The point is England doesn't have a fifth power. And that wouldn't make things better. It would make things worse.

Quote:
Most importantly no one is illegally preventing these other leagues from assuming the crown of popularity from the premiership, so dumping on the Premiership is left simply to taste. When you also recognize that most Prem clubs gain their larger % of their wealth through gameday sales then it's disingenuous for fans of other leagues to cry foul.
THATS A LIE, sky sports news did a report but two weeks ago that TV revenue overtook matchday revenue 6-7 years ago. and is the biggest revenue stream for all clubs!!!

Quote:
More important, IMO, are rules preventing the use of outside revenues to fund club operations. This would in turn force the fiscal prudence we all desire, minimize the impacts of sugar daddies that skew the markets and ultimately make takeovers based on more sound figures. Plus, if we had this Chelsea would quickly be realized as the fraud they are and "voila!" problem solved.
Not at all because that would mean growth of small clubs is limited and they'd never be able to challenge. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle5587342.ece

A salary cap would be better but unworkable.

However there would be nothing stopping Roman abramovich from sponsoring chelsea would there.

Last edited by bigbossman; March 8th, 2009 at 04:03 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 03:55 AM   #614
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delete

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Old March 8th, 2009, 04:11 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post
That move might be patently illegal, however. If someone has a billboard that's been in place for years it's unlawful for someone to come along and say that "Due to outside forces that you had nothing to do with or any say over, you need to close down this sign/business." Someone tried that in the States and they'd learn how quick the lawyers can be in this law-suit happy country.
Business signs e.g. KFC stay but advertising boards must go.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 06:16 AM   #616
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No your argument was based on the fact English teams dominate a knock out competition.

and i said that Knock out competitions are a lottery which any team can win using recent winners as an example.
You keep referring to the 'knock out' competition as not being a fair way to judge the power/dominance of one league.

Consider the following:

(1) The most powerful leagues get extra places in the comp. The Premiership is one of the most powerful, thus gets 4 places in the CL.

(2) The first stages of the comp don't feature the clubs from the most powerful leagues, thus the Premiership being a strong league means that the clubs avoid the first couple of potential pitfalls.

(3) By the time the 3rd qualifying round comes around there is still an excellent chance of drawing an opponant from a weaker league (FC Twente, 4th best team in Holland but into CL as result of Dutch play-offs, for example).

(4) The knock-out games themselves are played over 2 legs which vastly reduces the odds of an upset.

(5) Once through the qualification rounds, it switches to a league - a league format always favours the strongest clubs.

(6) The league format remains in place until we get to the final 16 sides. At which point we return to 2 legged rounds, once again reducing the chances of a major upset.

No doubt about it - the English Premier League IS dominant. Over the last decade we've had more clubs through to the late stages of the tournament than any other nation. We may not have won it every year, but we've done better than most.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 07:27 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Benjuk View Post
You keep referring to the 'knock out' competition as not being a fair way to judge the power/dominance of one league.
If knockout competitions were the way to judge, then that's how we would decide national champions, but the fact of that matter is, it isn't. It proves a national leagues proficiency at two legged knock out games nothing more nothing less.

Quote:
Consider the following:

(1) The most powerful leagues get extra places in the comp. The Premiership is one of the most powerful, thus gets 4 places in the CL.
They get more chances to maintain their high coefficient ranking.

Quote:
(2) The first stages of the comp don't feature the clubs from the most powerful leagues, thus the Premiership being a strong league means that the clubs avoid the first couple of potential pitfalls.
... so, doesn't prove the champions league crowns the best team

Quote:
(3) By the time the 3rd qualifying round comes around there is still an excellent chance of drawing an opponant from a weaker league (FC Twente, 4th best team in Holland but into CL as result of Dutch play-offs, for example).
What is your point??? it still doesn't prove jack

Quote:
(4) The knock-out games themselves are played over 2 legs which vastly reduces the odds of an upset.
Upset, what upset, of course it would reduce the chances of an uspet but we aren't talking about the prospects of upsets, no team is that much worse than another. If Liverpool beat real madrid it's not an upset neither is if Real Madrid beat liverpool. It proves who played better over the two games was, not who is the better team overall.

Take the dutch league play offs which you mentioned. twente qualified by winning their home leg, then holding out for a 0-0 in their away leg. Ajax had an off day and didn't score. There is no doubt ajax were the better team.

Also away goals are a factor in two legged games and ruin the flow of a game and the way it is played
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle5827393.ece

Quote:
(5) Once through the qualification rounds, it switches to a league - a league format always favours the strongest clubs.
That is a round-robin. not a league format, 6 games aren't enough to deduce who is stronger. Anyone can have a good 6 game spell, and anyone can have a turmultuous 6 games and be out.

It was a UEFA compromise at the threat of a super league.

Quote:
(6) The league format remains in place until we get to the final 16 sides. At which point we return to 2 legged rounds, once again reducing the chances of a major upset.
once again upsets aren;t the issue here. What is the issue is that it can't be decided over two legs who is the better of two teams equally matched or slightly missed matched. The team who plays better on the day and gets the luck.

Quote:
No doubt about it - the English Premier League IS dominant. Over the last decade we've had more clubs through to the late stages of the tournament than any other nation. We may not have won it every year, but we've done better than most.
Dominant would meant hat english teams over the last decade had by far the most teams through to the latter stages. That isn't the case whatsoever.

Ever since 1999/2000 when the tournament was expanded to its current format these are the stats

QF,SF, F
England 20,12,5
SPain 17,12,6
Italy 14,6,4
Germany 7,3,1
Greece 1,0,0
Turkey 2,0,0
Portugal 3,1,1
France 4,1,1
Holland 3,1,0

It depends on what you refer to as later stages if you are talking about QFs then yes. Although heavily enhanced by last season and infact the season before.

If were talking semi finals, even with spain, but once again bloated by 2 seasons with 3 semi finalists

Consistency is definately on the sides of the spanish and italian leagues.

As with all stats they can be twisted turned, pulled and tugged in every which way. It doesn't mean that they are conclusive. As with all stats they can be bloated by small periods rather than being an even representation. Make of them what you will.

Last edited by bigbossman; March 8th, 2009 at 08:01 AM.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 02:28 PM   #618
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I can't see how you can look at those stats - dating back over an elongated period and not accept that they indicate a superiority. Take any individual season and I accept that random elements - a lucky result here, a lucky draw there can come into effect - total things up over 10 years and the fact that the richest league in the world comes out on top makes it quite clear that this league is dominating things.

The point of concern for FIFA appears to be that the dominance is growing stronger - 6 out of 8 semi finalists in the last 2 years, 8 out of 12 in the last 3 - 4 out of 16 remaining teams in the current competition (3 of them leading after the 1st leg).
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Old March 8th, 2009, 05:08 PM   #619
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Well, since Blatters statement is discussed so lively here. I'd like to explain my own personal worries and my opinion, which is very simmilar to blatters, but with a little different argumentation than he used. It turned out to be a pretty long post, so if you're not interested in discussing the matter just skip it and accept my apology for taking my part in this large off topic discussion.

First of all in any professional sport, soccer too, sucess is largely a matter of available money. Not only but largely. If you look at the money teams have availabe to spend you get a fairly accurate estimate on how sucessfull the teams are and will be. The financial ranking and the sports ranking are fairly equal, with a few exceptions of course.

Now with that in mind (I'll get back to it later) let's take a look at the national leagues. Two examples, because they're so different, again the premier league and the Bundesliga.
If we cut down the leagues to the "national championships", to their essential key element, the contest of finding out which team is the best.
Then, if we only look at this very single aspect. We see, that the Bundesliga is a very reasonable pool of contestants fighting to win the championship. In the Bundesliga any team can beat another. Noone is truely dominant only Bayern München stands out a little, but even they are not overly dominant, basically pretty much any team can somewhat reasonably win the championship and any pretty much any team can also drop out. Hamburger SV and VfL Wolfsburg for example fought hard to remain in the bundesliga two seasons ago, now they both allready compete for the title in a close race again, with just as much poinst as Bayern München have.

Now on the other hand there is the premier league. There, if you only look at the championship candidates again, basically the pool of the contestants is rationally just chosen "too large". Simply because only 4 teams have and had a reasonable chance to win the title. All the other teams don't really have any serious chance, because the top 4 are overly dominant. So for the sole aspect of determining the best national soccerteam, it would actually be fully sufficcient to just cut down the pool of contestants to 4 teams, if we're a little more generous and reasonable maybe 6 or 8 teams. So in fact a league of 8 teams for example, where one or two are replaced each season by relegation would in fact be completely sufficient in England to determine the national champion, that is of course if we solely look at this single aspect of determining which the best team is, not at all the rest of the entire event or sport.

Now if we take a look at all the other aspekts the "sideaspekts" which are also very important, we see that the premiere league has many advantages to the Bundesliga there.
In those fields the premiere league is extremely successful! And that is why it's so popular and dominating to most other leagues!
The top teams in the premiere league, are the ones that have the Superstars, they have the money, they have the best of the best players in the world. They naturally also have the success and they shoot the spectacular goals. So the big event soccer... the showbusiness... the superstars, the spectacular players, the most famous ones all the "Hollywood" of soccer is in the mostly premiere league. The top 4 teams compete in their own "league of the wealthy", the others just play along. The others only profit from lokal rivalries, being able to play against these popular stars, the top 4,benefit from the TV money and some other minor things also, of course. But the "rest" of the premiere league (even though it's in fact the vast majority) they don't really compete for the championship, they basiacally just play along or fight to remain in, very unlike the nature of the Bundesliga.

Now back to the first aspect, the available money and the resulting success of the teams.
In the Bundesliga almost all the clubs (The only real exception is Hoffenheim) have to raise their money from the sport soccer. The money they get to spend is earned by marketing the "product soccer". They provide the fanbases, they acquire sponsors and get their money basically only from marketing themselves more or less well and traditionally. They live from three fundamental bases, the TV money, the Sponsors and the Fans/ ticketsales etc. The money generated from TV marketing is distributed fairly well and reasonable, so all the teams get a somewhat reasonable share from the TV pool and the rights that are marketed by the league.
So the finances are fairly well distributed and the clubs with the large fanbases or with more success in the sport have more money to spend than smaller ones with only a few exceptions, as allways of course, but overall it's a very reasonable and "healthy" structure, financially and in the aspects of the sports-competiton.

In the premiere league it's naturally quite different. The top teams have much, much more money than all the rest. The distribution of the wealth is quite different much mor unequal. And one major aspect, one very important fact: the top teams don't really generate their income only with the "product soccer". They get their money "externally", with that I mean not just from marketing themselves or soccer or economically providing something in return for the money they get.
Bayern München for example basically generates and raises as much money as any team can, solely from the value of soccer and the sport, the brand the stars, fans image TV money (under the given conditions in the bundesliga of course)... they only have the classical type of sponsors.
ManU or Chelsea on the other hand don't just live from marketing themselves or the "product soccer". They live from the millions Abramovic and Gazer pump into their team additionally on top of the classical marketing and fundraising, the usual way most other teams in the premiere league or elsewhere have to get their money. The finances of Chelsea and ManU are fundamentally different in their nature. Those clubs don't need to look at debts or at economical aspects, because they have someone who pumps money into the club externally, kind of a "Moneyfountain" they sit on because the clubowner donates it to them.
And that is a fundamentally different situation to a normal "classical" professional team which has to earn and raise money traditionally, only by selling their "product soccer" providing the fanbase marketing possibillities for sponsores etc. in return.
And because the top teams in the premiere league live under financially completely different conditions, they are much more successfull and that allows them to dominate the league, to pay for these horrendeous salaries for their superstars, trainers players etc. That's what really separates them from "normal clubs" in the league or all over the world.
In other countries like Spain or Italy the gap between the dominating teams then instead often comes more from the nature of distributing the TV money there, which gives the top teams a big advantage over the other competing teams in their homeleague.
But in my opinion the premiere league is only so succesfull because the top teams are financially "doped" by their owners. And of course also because they too get a very large share of the TV money. And all that enables them to buy the best players in the world and provides the league with a larger fanbase worldwide, with the opportunity of marketing the whole event worldwide more successfull than any other league, because the fans in the homecountries of the superstars are also interested in their idols and therefore watch, follow the premiere league, too.
Manchester United surely doesn't have all that many fans of Manchester but a lot of fans from their superstarplayers, all over the world. Hardly anyone in Germany follows Chelsea because of the London club, the local team, but much rather because of Michael Ballack. So the secondary aspects of the big showbusiness, the "big event" premiere league are what make it so extremely successfull, not the primary aspect of the national championship itself.
And this financial gap, the financial bonus those top teams there have, do in fact really create problems in other leagues all over europe and worldwide. Because those teams there cannot really compete financially, to keep their own top players.

In Germany we have a number of very strict regulations on how a club can be financed, we have the rule that a minimum majority of 50+1 shares of the club cannot be sold to external owners etc.
All this to keep the overall system Bundesliga financially healthy, to keep clubs from being overly dependant on owners sponsors etc. To try to keep it an overall "fansport". But the downside of course is, that this makes it very hard or almost impossible to compete with those few clubs that have these "unlimited" financial possibilities because of their owners. Like ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal or as a new example here in Germany now, also even the new team from Hoffenheim.
And that in my opinion is quite unhealthy for the overall sport. It creates szenarios where clubs like Dortmund or Schalke or Bremen, Hertha BSC... etc. are suddenly forced to take much to big financial risks, if they decide they do want to try to compete with the best, the biggest. Even Bayern München cannot reasonably financially compete with those few top teams in the world or premiere league, and theoretically they cannot even financially compete with Hoffenheim, not if Hopp decides he wants to spend more money on his team. And those things, this "financial doping" from the billionaires, these vast amounts of money pumped into some few top teams from "outside" are not a really nice developement. And not very healthy for the majority of clubs all over the world. I personally believe they are not even very healthy for those few clubs themselves. ManU for example split up, a minor group of fans founded their own new club. And in the long run I believe this developement doesn't help the overall popularity of the sport either. And even the english national team also suffers in several ways from these developements, from the overall conditions in the premiere league. The German national team for example on the other hand has much better conditions here with the Bundesliga and the number of german players that play here in the top teams, or the first league in general.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 05:14 PM   #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alemanniafan View Post
Even thought it's actually pretty of topic. I personally believe blatters statement about the Premierleague is absolutely right.

And to show you why I think so the actual standings in the Bundesliga and in the Premier League:

Bundesliga:
Place Team matches -wins -draws - losses - goals - Points - qualification
1 Hertha BSC 23 14 -4 -5 38:27 46 CL
2 1899 Hoffenheim 23 12 -6 -5 49:31 42 CL
Bayern München 23 12 -6 -5 49:31 42 CL -Qual.
4 VfL Wolfsburg 23 12 -6 -5 46:28 42 UEFA -Cup
5 Hamburger SV 23 13 -3 -7 35:35 42 UEFA -Cup
6 VfB Stuttgart 23 11 -6 -6 42:32 39
7 FC Schalke 04 23 10 -7 -6 30:21 37
8 Bayer Leverkusen 22 11 -3 -8 44:30 36

Premier League: home away
Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS
1 Man Utd 27 12 1 0 30 5 8 4 2 18 7 36 65
2 Chelsea 28 7 5 2 23 8 10 2 2 25 8 32 58
3 Liverpool 28 8 6 0 22 8 8 4 2 23 12 25 58
4 Aston Villa 28 5 7 2 20 15 10 0 4 22 14 13 52
5 Arsenal 28 7 5 2 18 11 6 5 3 23 15 15 49
6 Everton 28 5 5 4 20 16 7 4 3 16 12 8 45
7 West Ham 28 7 1 6 19 17 4 5 5 15 17 0 39
8 Man City 28 9 0 5 30 12 1 5 8 15 24 9 35

Now you try predicting who's gonna win the title in the Bundesliga and in the premier league and then you tell me which league is more predictable and which one is going to be a closer call.
Oh, and in case you don't know Hoffenheim they're playing their first season in the Bundesliga. (mostly financed by Dietmar Hopp a billionaire, a founder of the softwarecompany SAP)
In my opinion Blatter is completely right with his statement, it's not good for a league to allways only be dominated by a handfull of top teams it's much more interesting and fun to watch a league where almost anyone may win like the Bundesliga and Herta BSC didn#t do all that well in the past decade. And the Hamburger SV like the Vfl Wolfsburg also was one of the many teams that really were somewhat worried they might actually drop out of the first league, two seasons ago, when half of the league battled to remain in.
What a load of crap.

Your league is on about 23 games.

The premier league is on 28.
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