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Old May 16th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #1101
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I'm off for a pint of ale to drown my sorrows anyway.
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Old May 16th, 2010, 10:43 PM   #1102
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I just assumed that's how you guys expressed joy.
O rly? Don't you think that it was offensive?
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Old May 16th, 2010, 11:14 PM   #1103
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OK. I understand you're all upset about the incident and the Newspaper, but seriously. I believe some people here are not only loosing their manners but also their common sense.
For once, I seriously doubt this is the easiest bid ever.
And second I seriously doubt that this skandal would make a halfwhat reasonable excuse should England lose the bid to Russia or Belgium and the Netherlands, Spain and Portugal or whoever.

I honestly don't really see England win this bid and even if, then surely not any way close to easy at all. And the reason why I believe so has absolutely nothing to do with this cheap yellowpress skandal of some more or less important FA official up there.
Russia for example has a gigantic and fast growing market for soccer with tons of money being pumped into it and lots of brandnew or modernized stadia. Their bid alone should be far from easy to beat for England or anyone else.

You might be convinced that England has the strongest league and will have the biggest and best stadia on the planet in time for the WC - and thus, by logic should surely have the best cances, but that is an overly optimistic view in my humble opinion, since it just covers very few of the aspects involving the overall bid package. Important ones of course and very good and strong arguments for the bid, yes, surely. But still far from making it a certain winner or the bid an easy one to win for England.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 01:27 AM   #1104
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I honestly don't really see England win this bid and even if, then surely not any way close to easy at all. And the reason why I believe so has absolutely nothing to do with this cheap yellowpress skandal of some more or less important FA official up there.
Russia for example has a gigantic and fast growing market for soccer with tons of money being pumped into it and lots of brandnew or modernized stadia. Their bid alone should be far from easy to beat for England or anyone else.
+ 100 I think so too.

England already has a high developed sport infrastructure. England already is great football country. And this is, imho, a strong and also weak side of England bid, because FIFA interested in the developing football in the whole world. That is why they gave WC to Africa. We don,t have a good stadiums but if we win the WC bid we will build 12 new and reconstruct 4. The strong side of Russian bid is that we can make a lot for developments football in the whole Asia and Eastern Europe. I hope that FIFA understands it…
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Old May 17th, 2010, 01:43 AM   #1105
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Originally Posted by Alemanniafan View Post
OK. I understand you're all upset about the incident and the Newspaper, but seriously. I believe some people here are not only loosing their manners but also their common sense.
For once, I seriously doubt this is the easiest bid ever.
And second I seriously doubt that this skandal would make a halfwhat reasonable excuse should England lose the bid to Russia or Belgium and the Netherlands, Spain and Portugal or whoever.

I honestly don't really see England win this bid and even if, then surely not any way close to easy at all. And the reason why I believe so has absolutely nothing to do with this cheap yellowpress skandal of some more or less important FA official up there.
Russia for example has a gigantic and fast growing market for soccer with tons of money being pumped into it and lots of brandnew or modernized stadia. Their bid alone should be far from easy to beat for England or anyone else.

You might be convinced that England has the strongest league and will have the biggest and best stadia on the planet in time for the WC - and thus, by logic should surely have the best cances, but that is an overly optimistic view in my humble opinion, since it just covers very few of the aspects involving the overall bid package. Important ones of course and very good and strong arguments for the bid, yes, surely. But still far from making it a certain winner or the bid an easy one to win for England.
Nonsense..Russia isnt in the same league as England as a Football country..we invented the game..spread it around the world..have the worlds biggest league and most passionate fans..no one deserves the world cup more than England it is the home of football
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Old May 17th, 2010, 03:06 AM   #1106
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Originally Posted by Fobos2030 View Post
+ 100 I think so too.

England already has a high developed sport infrastructure. England already is great football country. And this is, imho, a strong and also weak side of England bid, because FIFA interested in the developing football in the whole world. That is why they gave WC to Africa. We don,t have a good stadiums but if we win the WC bid we will build 12 new and reconstruct 4. The strong side of Russian bid is that we can make a lot for developments football in the whole Asia and Eastern Europe. I hope that FIFA understands it…
I think that YOU guys have a view that is too optimistic. FIFA didn't give the WC to Africa because they wanted football to grow. They did it because there's a power struggle between UEFA and the rest of the world in FIFA's executive board. And "not opposing" is enough for them to get it, considering how well represented these countries are within the executive board.

World (CAF and CONMEBOL, especially) has the presidency (Blatter), UEFA is well represented in the executive board - as shown in the 2006 WC host election, at which Germany won an election that was engineered to be won by South Africa.

So the next decision by Blatter (or, considering he's just a sock puppet, by Havelange) was to authoritarily give the 2010 and 2014 to Africa and South America, his political bases - he knew that those bids wouldn't have the support within the executive board to win an election.

And now, unless Havelange is really old and starting to hallucinate, he won't oppose to giving the 2018 WC to one of the countries in UEFA's hardcore - 5 World Cups away from England, Italy, France, Germany and Spain could cause a coup d'etat within the organization. And "not opposing" is enough for them to get it, considering how well represented these countries are within the executive board.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 06:00 AM   #1107
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Well, there's seven months to go before we know for sure what is going to happen. Stuff tend to be put into perspective.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 06:19 AM   #1108
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I think that YOU guys have a view that is too optimistic. FIFA didn't give the WC to Africa because they wanted football to grow. They did it because there's a power struggle between UEFA and the rest of the world in FIFA's executive board. And "not opposing" is enough for them to get it, considering how well represented these countries are within the executive board.

World (CAF and CONMEBOL, especially) has the presidency (Blatter), UEFA is well represented in the executive board - as shown in the 2006 WC host election, at which Germany won an election that was engineered to be won by South Africa.

So the next decision by Blatter (or, considering he's just a sock puppet, by Havelange) was to authoritarily give the 2010 and 2014 to Africa and South America, his political bases - he knew that those bids wouldn't have the support within the executive board to win an election.

And now, unless Havelange is really old and starting to hallucinate, he won't oppose to giving the 2018 WC to one of the countries in UEFA's hardcore - 5 World Cups away from England, Italy, France, Germany and Spain could cause a coup d'etat within the organization. And "not opposing" is enough for them to get it, considering how well represented these countries are within the executive board.
Very well said.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 06:40 AM   #1109
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I see in many ways that Englands bid might be the strongest overall, but I still believe that Russia will win the rights to host instead.

As mentioned earlier, Russia is a growing football market, whereas England is already a saturated market. Like it on not, FIFA like to look outside the square and England seem to just play on its 'home of football' self proclaimed title. It needs to do more to win than that and needs to show FIFA what benifits it will bring the game if it was hosted there.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:16 AM   #1110
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Originally Posted by Melb_aviator View Post
I see in many ways that Englands bid might be the strongest overall, but I still believe that Russia will win the rights to host instead.

As mentioned earlier, Russia is a growing football market, whereas England is already a saturated market. Like it on not, FIFA like to look outside the square and England seem to just play on its 'home of football' self proclaimed title. It needs to do more to win than that and needs to show FIFA what benifits it will bring the game if it was hosted there.
Yes we have done in the past, but this notion has been played down to such an extent that it is practically banned by the bid team. They have tried to learn from previous mistakes(just a pity they seem to have a habit of making new ones), and

Of course you will still see these threads littered with it, but it's been recognised by the FA that the whole 'football's coming home' thing is seen as being arrogant elsewhere in the world so you won't see it as an official theme of the bid..
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:22 AM   #1111
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England are certainly able to host.

BUT once the FIFA stadium requirements are compared to many of the "older" venues, the scope of works and the cost of works will become more apparent.

A venue hosting matches every week is not necessarily going to meet FIFA's requirements, which after South Africa 2010 are very exact and non-negotiable, including the amount of space required around the venue for hospitality,commercial affiliate space etc.

I don't doubt though that the England has taken all of this into account.

Expect to see "stadium costs" doubled/triple after the bid is won...but thats not really new to any major event.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 01:10 PM   #1112
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Yes Triesmans resignation is a blow, and I expect the Russian and Spainish / Portuguese FA's will react angrily to the allegations in the paper. Has this done the England bid some harm yes, has it blown the bid no. London's 2012 bid was also interrupted by resignations, in 2004 the then chairwoman of the bid, Barbara Cassani resigned only to be replaced by Lord Coe. As we know London later won the bid to hold the 2012 olympics against very tough bidding cities.

What I don't think this England bid can say is that we deserve it (although in my eyes I feel we do), as we tried this approach for the 2006 world cup bid and we lost. The route that the English FA are saying that our bid will be the most profitable ever is a good one.

On another note going from the post: 1060 by RobH on page 53 of this thread, the net capacities of our stadiums in the bid bring them right down. We only have 1 stadium capable of holding 80,000+ (wembley actual capacity 90,000. net capacity 84,700). Then only 1 stadium of holding 70,000+ (London Olympic stadium actual capacity 80,000. Net capacity 72,000). Then 2 stadiums in the 60,000+ bracket (Old Trafford actual capacity 76,000. Net capacity 67,000. And New Anfield actual capacity 72,000. Net capacity 68,500) The net capacity would also bring down the Emirates from 60,300 to 55,141 and also Spurs new stadium from 56,000 to 53,000. The remaining 11 stadiums in the bid are all in the 40,000+ bracket. I am quite concerned our stadiums are looking on the small side compared with other world cups and Spain/ Portugal 2018 bid! Does anyone else have this concern?
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Old May 17th, 2010, 01:56 PM   #1113
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Yes we have done in the past, but this notion has been played down to such an extent that it is practically banned by the bid team. They have tried to learn from previous mistakes(just a pity they seem to have a habit of making new ones), and

Of course you will still see these threads littered with it, but it's been recognised by the FA that the whole 'football's coming home' thing is seen as being arrogant elsewhere in the world so you won't see it as an official theme of the bid..
Its good to see that such things were looked at and reviewed by the bid team. Now I guess its up to the politics of football to decide who wins and whether those doing the voting remember those statements made in the past and the other issues that have come up.

It is a pity as a WC in England would be great and would bring back the focus on e game itself, but things do not always work out that way.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 02:28 PM   #1114
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Nonsense..Russia isnt in the same league as England as a Football country..we invented the game..spread it around the world..have the worlds biggest league and most passionate fans..no one deserves the world cup more than England it is the home of football
"invented the game, spread it around the world, worlds biggest league, most passionate fans... " maybe, but alow me to dissagree with some of these statements . Oh and there's of course one more famous quote to add to that list:
"Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans win." — Gary Lineker, July 4, 1990

Besides all the entertaining soccer rivalry between England and Germany, there are a few things to coment about your statements.

The premiere league may as a league be the biggest buisiness, the larges money machine, but England does have a saturated soccer market indeed and a number of clubs that have piled up enormeuos amounts of debts. I believe the english market for will most likely decrease in the next years and those eormeous debts allready start having their negaitve effects on those clubs. And more than one premiere league club would get into serious financial problems should their russian owners, investors or sponsors draw their money out of them and focus on their "homeleague" in russia instead.
The premiere league is just like most other countries leagues still a pretty fragile construct after all, despite the big business and its worldwide popularity.
I believe the british soccer market and the premiere league are far more likely to decrease in the nearer future than to grow even bigger. And the UEFA is planing or even allready taking measures against clubs piling up so vast amounts of debts.

And to get to this funny argument of having the most passionate fans... that's just plain BS. And on top of that, you should know that this probably will be more of a concern for the FIFA than it might be a positive argument. The FIFA just isn't very interested in passionate fans, they are interested in consumers spending lots of money without causing any troubles, violence or skandals etc. And English soccerfans are widely regarded as ones causing more problems and being more agressive and violent than other countries fans. And even if English fans really were more passionate than elswhere in the world, which I seriously doubt since I believe soccerfans all over the world are generally pretty equally fanatic and passionate, no matter what country they come from, even if that really were the case, then it surely wouldn't be a positive argument if thought and followed througha ll the way, but rather a negative one instead. - No matter how often the FIFA states soccer is about and that they do love passion and passionate fans.

Russia does potentially have a much, much bigger consumer market than England has. Plus they do have a lot of very strong and powerfull diplomatic connections all over the world especially to many many smaller or less powerfull countries all over he world in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, which they will surely benefit from and which will definetely get them a lot of votes. And as I also believe, the Russians won't hesitate to use nearly any necessary and possible measures to convince, pressure or even "buy" votes if it should help them get what they want.
Russia is one of the worlds biggest global players it is one of the worlds superpowers and they do pump a lot of russian money into soccerclubs all over the world. You really shouldn't underestimate that, it makes Russia extremely powerfull in the global soccer business and lets them have quite a lot of influence. In soccer, Russia is a sleeping Tiger so to speak.

But Russia is just one example I brought up to undermine my opinion and to explain what other aspects there are to consider. It's just one major contestand for England out of several others. There's also the US, Spain and Portugal, Belgium and the Netherlands, Australia or Japan which are also surely not at all easy to beat. - And definetely not just by simply stating that soccer would be coming home and that the premiere league is the biggest in the world, that alone surely won't be enough to win against all of those strong candidates.

England definetely does have a very good chance to win, but I personally believe other European countries will beat them. My first bet would be on Russia and then maybe even also Belgium and the Netherlands.
Out of the non European countries Australia and the US will surely also be two very strong opponents.
The biggest problem for England though (and all the other european contestants of course) should be, that surely only one of these two World Cups in 2018 and 2022 will go to Europe.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 03:30 PM   #1115
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but England does have a saturated soccer market
What you'd call saturated I'd call mature and steadily growing. Several clubs are looking to move into bigger grounds or expand including Liverpool, Spurs, Man City and Everton and Villa. All of these clubs have long season ticket waiting lists. The market is not saturated and in fact demand outstrips supply to a large extent.

Quote:
And on top of that, you should know that this probably will be more of a concern for the FIFA than it might be a positive argument
Completely and utterly wrong. FIFA are certain of full stadiums and passionate fans in England. It's far, far more of a positive than it is a concern. To spin it any other way is disingenuous. England fans have bought more than twice as many tickets as the next European nation for this year's world cup and outnumbered Portugal fans when we played them in their own country in Euro 2004. The last serious problems caused by England fans were a decade ago. A huge amount of effort has gone into ridding our game of the hooligan element and it has been largely a success. FIFA knows this and the organisers of the 2006 world cup in Germany suggested England fans were the unofficial fans of the tournament.

Quote:
And as I also believe, the Russians won't hesitate to use nearly any necessary and possible measures to convince, pressure or even "buy" votes if it should help them get what they want.
You want a fair play award do you? Good to know you back up Treisman's stance on Russia's tactics to win this world cup. I hope you're wrong and I should think some Russians here would take offence at the suggestion you're making.

Quote:
And definetely not just by simply stating that soccer would be coming home and that the premiere league is the biggest in the world, that alone surely won't be enough to win against all of those strong candidates.
It's lucky that the bid is doing a lot more than that then isn't it?!
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:07 PM   #1116
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England are certainly able to host.

BUT once the FIFA stadium requirements are compared to many of the "older" venues, the scope of works and the cost of works will become more apparent.

A venue hosting matches every week is not necessarily going to meet FIFA's requirements, which after South Africa 2010 are very exact and non-negotiable, including the amount of space required around the venue for hospitality,commercial affiliate space etc.

I don't doubt though that the England has taken all of this into account.

Expect to see "stadium costs" doubled/triple after the bid is won...but thats not really new to any major event.
The choice of a FIFA World Cup host is not about stadiums. Just remember, when Brazil was chosen we didn't even have candidate cities, let alone candidate stadiums. The first 7 projects were approved by FIFA last year - two after the selection of the host country.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:10 PM   #1117
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Brazil is something of an exception to the rule though. They were picked with virtually no competition and have had all the time in the world to get stadium projects ready. In a competitive bid process, something Brazil didn't really have to undergo, simply saying "we'll build what's necessary when you choose us" probably won't cut it.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:35 PM   #1118
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The choice of a FIFA World Cup host is not about stadiums. Just remember, when Brazil was chosen we didn't even have candidate cities, let alone candidate stadiums. The first 7 projects were approved by FIFA last year - two after the selection of the host country.
I'm talking about when England win. When the stadia are interrogated and host cities realize that the train station adjacent to the venue will not serve the matches at the venue.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:46 PM   #1119
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which article?
can somebody post it?
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Old May 17th, 2010, 06:08 PM   #1120
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...
You want a fair play award do you? Good to know you back up Treisman's stance on Russia's tactics to win this world cup. I hope you're wrong and I should think some Russians here would take offence at the suggestion you're making.
A World Cup is a gigantic business and hosting a worldcup or not is a question of making money or not for a lot of people and businesses involved.
And as allways in big decisions like these with major consequences it's a tough contest, where contestants make deals, team up pressure each other and most likely don't allways only use 100% clean and straight out fair measures.
But no, I'm not looking to get a fair play award and my personal opinion and statements are surely not meant as an offence or even an accuisation or in an insulting way to Russians, any officials, or anyone else around.
I just personally do believe that just like Russia, England or basically even any one else of the other bidders will naturally do pretty much exactly just the same, trying to win this immensely important bid. And I personally believe that just like Russia, England also wouldn't hesitate to use pretty much all necesary measures, to pressure or force and if necessary even "buy" (to make it clear what I mean by "buying a vote" here and before in this context: I don't necessarily mean it in the illegal sense of really paying people some amount of money as a bribe, but first and foremost much rather in the legal sense of "buying a vote" by offering something else that's valuable in return for an unrefuseably "good deal" so to speak.) votes by making the strangest types of deals, als long as it's more or less within legal boundaries, because that's the way it naturally works with big business decisions, that's how bids are won. - Not just by telling each other how great a host oneself would be.

A recent example of what I mean can be found here:
http://1800-worldcup.com/world_cup_f...ld_cup_bid.htm

Now go ahead and ask yourself, why Germany won the bid by just this one little vote more than South Africa and strangely, while one single vote has not been submitted in the final election, for whatever inexplicable reason.
It was indeed a pretty strange election process in my personal view and I really don't want to know how Germany managed to convinced the majority of this one single vote for Germany and not for South Africa instead and how they ended up not having a tie of 12 to 12 votes, where Blatter would have been most likely to vote for South Africa.

But that's politics, that's what making big business in a tough competition is like and about. And it's certainly not allways only 100% fair or 100% clean and straight forward honourable.
To cut it all down: I personally believe that Russia has and will so to say "pour a little more oil into the gears of the election process" to make things in general work more smoothly for them, than England has and can.
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