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Old July 9th, 2008, 09:08 PM   #521
Benn
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Originally Posted by Benjuk View Post
I would say drop Phoenix, put Miami into the South area, stick Boston into the East. Maybe St Louis or Detroit for Minneapolis?
Unless St Louis builds a new stadium I don't think they have much of a chance. Detroit is in the same situation with a dome, which even though a field can survive a couple weeks indoor, I think FIFA will be opposed to the idea, not to mention Ford Field's capacity is a little low. If Detroit and St Louis still have the crime problems that they currently do, that would probably hurt them a bit.

I do like the idea of Miami being a South grouping, but it would be hard to drop Phoenix (which by the way is putting in a large LRT system as we speak, though the tempatures could suck something fierce). ButI still don't see Gillette stadium being a stong bid, out in the middle of nowhere with fairly minimal mass transit access, close to New York and with smaller capacity than the alternatives. Chicago is the only city I can see getting away with a capacity under 70,000 by then, and thats just on the prestige and size of the city.

And Lucas Oil would be a great venue, all the retractable seating would make it a really easy change over, and about 70,000 seats, and could be a pretty strong candidate, although it would be the smallest host. I have heard the mass transit system could use a lot of help as well.
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Old July 9th, 2008, 11:23 PM   #522
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U guys just keep basing it on stadia. It's more than that. As in 1994, the chosen venues were selected also due to the cosmopolitan mix of the local citizenry.

Phoenix AIN'T gonna happen. That's seniorsville and it's a FURNACE in the summer.

Midwest, I'd say Columbus, OH, has more of a chance than Indianapolis, notwithstanding Indy's new Lucas Field. Columbus is more of a hotbed of soccer than Indy is. Besides, Columbus is also the Ballroom Dancing capital of the US. So there.

Solaris, distances? Please. Die-hard soccer fans are going to travel to the ends of the earth to follow their teams regardless of the cost. And you don't think South Africa or Brazil will be an impediment?

As the tournament progresses to the quarters, then the semis, and then the finals-- what are the fans from abroad who are staying until the end, going to do during the extended rest days? Well then, those extra days can relieve them from taking the 'so-called' 'expensive airfares. Why don't they take the train? Or charter buses (50 or 60 to an A/C bus)?

Also, incomes will also be up 14 years from now - commensurate with the cost of living.

Further, the Official Airline sponsor will be offering promo deals for the fans of the teams that have to travel. So this 'expensive airfare' argument, 14 years from now, doesn't hold.

If FIFA really wants to think of fans and their wallets, then they should schedule the games one day after the next, so that the groupies DON'T have to pay for extra days at hotels when games aren't happening. But that is not going to happen. Besides, personally following your team is your OWN PERSONAL CHOICE. No one is forcing you to fly halfway around the globe to follow your team. That is entirely an optional plan.

Last edited by rover3; July 9th, 2008 at 11:53 PM.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 12:30 AM   #523
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Rover3 - I think you have to recognize that the vast distances you're proposing fans travel in a bus is not a strong point.
While you could be correct about 'cheap' airfares, US internal flights are regarded as notoriously expensive in the rest of the world. Add top this the United States current reputation of being unwelcoming to foreigners and I think even you must try to understand that any US bid has some challenges that other countries bidding will not be facing.

Australia has a reputation for being very welcoming to outsiders (the gene pool needs to be freshened up) and China's potential bid, I think, will be made or broken based on next months Olympics.

It's quite possible that the delegates who vote may not care a whole lot what the experience is like for the regular fans.

Agree with you 100% about Phoenix in June/July.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 12:52 AM   #524
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Quote:
And Lucas Oil would be a great venue, all the retractable seating would make it a really easy change over, and about 70,000 seats, and could be a pretty strong candidate, although it would be the smallest host. I have heard the mass transit system could use a lot of help as well.
Our mass transit is no good. I think most fans would just walk to the stadium since it's downtown.

Quote:
Midwest, I'd say Columbus, OH, has more of a chance than Indianapolis, notwithstanding Indy's new Lucas Field. Columbus is more of a hotbed of soccer than Indy is. Besides, Columbus is also the Ballroom Dancing capital of the US. So there.
I don't see them playing a game at Ohio Stadium. Indy is way ahead of Columbus in terms of hosting major events (i.e. F1 race from 2000-2008, now MotoGP)

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Add top this the United States current reputation of being unwelcoming to foreigners and I think even you must try to understand that any US bid has some challenges that other countries bidding will not be facing.
I think the US is very receptive to outsiders, especially those there to spend money. I really disagree.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 01:08 AM   #525
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I think the US is very receptive to outsiders, especially those there to spend money. I really disagree.
I agree with you. However, a lot of people overseas think they'll meet 300 million rover3's if they come and visit.

It's really a matter of perception and that perception for the last few years has resulted in poor numbers travelling to the USA. Considering the very low value of the US dollar you'd expect numbers to be very high. They are still below 2000 levels and about 10 million below the trend line.

http://www.poweroftravel.org/statist...0to%20U.S..pdf
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Old July 10th, 2008, 01:14 AM   #526
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Add top this the United States current reputation of being unwelcoming to foreigners and I think even you must try to understand that any US bid has some challenges that other countries bidding will not be facing.
And for China this year? Russia for Winter Games 2014?

China's expecting some 500,000 visitors from overseas for the events next month.

As for the US, well, they shifted the World Boxing Championships to Chicago last October. It got high marks, esp. in the visa department. A special task force was created in the State Dept. to handle visas associated with that event. The big Sportaccord convention, held last month in Athens, will convene in Denver next year. So I don't really see the visa thing as a problem.

It's really a minor hiccup in the normal course of staging international events. Besides, if you have no ulterior motive to hide, then you shouldn't be afraid. And if you're not literate enough to read, understand and complete an application form, then indeed you would have no reason to come over.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 02:10 AM   #527
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U guys just keep basing it on stadia. It's more than that. As in 1994, the chosen venues were selected also due to the cosmopolitan mix of the local citizenry.

Phoenix AIN'T gonna happen. That's seniorsville and it's a FURNACE in the summer.

Midwest, I'd say Columbus, OH, has more of a chance than Indianapolis, notwithstanding Indy's new Lucas Field. Columbus is more of a hotbed of soccer than Indy is. Besides, Columbus is also the Ballroom Dancing capital of the US. So there.

Solaris, distances? Please. Die-hard soccer fans are going to travel to the ends of the earth to follow their teams regardless of the cost. And you don't think South Africa or Brazil will be an impediment?

As the tournament progresses to the quarters, then the semis, and then the finals-- what are the fans from abroad who are staying until the end, going to do during the extended rest days? Well then, those extra days can relieve them from taking the 'so-called' 'expensive airfares. Why don't they take the train? Or charter buses (50 or 60 to an A/C bus)?

Also, incomes will also be up 14 years from now - commensurate with the cost of living.

Further, the Official Airline sponsor will be offering promo deals for the fans of the teams that have to travel. So this 'expensive airfare' argument, 14 years from now, doesn't hold.

If FIFA really wants to think of fans and their wallets, then they should schedule the games one day after the next, so that the groupies DON'T have to pay for extra days at hotels when games aren't happening. But that is not going to happen. Besides, personally following your team is your OWN PERSONAL CHOICE. No one is forcing you to fly halfway around the globe to follow your team. That is entirely an optional plan.
You hit the nail on the head. Places like Phoenix, Cleveland, Nashville, Indianapolis are not going to happen. The cities chosen will pretty much mirror those of 94, the only change I could see happening would be the inclusion of Seattle into the mix, possibly. Other than that, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, New York, Washington, D.C., Dallas are pretty much locks with Philadelphia, Seattle, Orlando/Miami the other options.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 05:14 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by rover3 View Post
Phoenix AIN'T gonna happen. That's seniorsville and it's a FURNACE in the summer.

Midwest, I'd say Columbus, OH, has more of a chance than Indianapolis, notwithstanding Indy's new Lucas Field. Columbus is more of a hotbed of soccer than Indy is. Besides, Columbus is also the Ballroom Dancing capital of the US. So there.

Solaris, distances? Please. Die-hard soccer fans are going to travel to the ends of the earth to follow their teams regardless of the cost. And you don't think South Africa or Brazil will be an impediment?

As the tournament progresses to the quarters, then the semis, and then the finals-- what are the fans from abroad who are staying until the end, going to do during the extended rest days? Well then, those extra days can relieve them from taking the 'so-called' 'expensive airfares. Why don't they take the train? Or charter buses (50 or 60 to an A/C bus)?

Also, incomes will also be up 14 years from now - commensurate with the cost of living.

Further, the Official Airline sponsor will be offering promo deals for the fans of the teams that have to travel. So this 'expensive airfare' argument, 14 years from now, doesn't hold.

If FIFA really wants to think of fans and their wallets, then they should schedule the games one day after the next, so that the groupies DON'T have to pay for extra days at hotels when games aren't happening. But that is not going to happen. Besides, personally following your team is your OWN PERSONAL CHOICE. No one is forcing you to fly halfway around the globe to follow your team. That is entirely an optional plan.
Well, you'll have to consider the proportions of the fans at the venues that are going to be foreign versus local supporters. The people from outside the US who would come to the WC games are most likely going to be a bit wealthier than your average fans, considering the costs of airfare, hotel rates, food, etc. Of course, we can't assume these costs will be the same as today, considering how volatile exchange rates are and absolutely no knowledge of what the state of the US and world economy will be in 12 years. Same goes for airfares. We can't say more than a decade ahead, what the state of the airline industry will be and how it will sort itself out.

Same goes for cost of living, wages, oil prices (though considering the speculative bubble, they should go down a bit at some point, but not to the level of the 90's) and other economic variables. Then there's the foreign vs. domestic comparison, and there are just too many variables way too far ahead in time to precisely know what things will be like. We can only extrapolate from current or pre-current conditions.

Still, a trip of this magnitude and length is bound to be expensive.

I'd agree with rover3 to some extent on the characteristics of the city for hosting. It's a big plus for any hosting candidate if it has other attractions outside of the football venue to please visitors. A trip like this encompasses more than just watching a game, it's a whole "experience". So a city like Phoenix just doesn't cut it. It's REALLY hot in the summer, poor transit options, and has very little to offer for tourists in regards to other attractions. And like many other American downtowns, downtown Phoenix is quite unattractive, little shopping, culture, and lots of homeless people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain1974 View Post
Rover3 - I think you have to recognize that the vast distances you're proposing fans travel in a bus is not a strong point.
While you could be correct about 'cheap' airfares, US internal flights are regarded as notoriously expensive in the rest of the world. Add top this the United States current reputation of being unwelcoming to foreigners and I think even you must try to understand that any US bid has some challenges that other countries bidding will not be facing.

Australia has a reputation for being very welcoming to outsiders (the gene pool needs to be freshened up) and China's potential bid, I think, will be made or broken based on next months Olympics.

It's quite possible that the delegates who vote may not care a whole lot what the experience is like for the regular fans.

Agree with you 100% about Phoenix in June/July.
I agree with the bus comment. Have you ever ridden a bus rover3? It could be an option for venues 2-3 hours away, but any longer and it becomes really bad. I've taken a bus in Europe between Germany/Poland/Czech Republic, and even though it was a really nice, new, modern bus, the ten hour ride was really tedious and tiring. It's even worse than flying economy class on a plane.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 05:21 AM   #529
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Thats 10, the bid would probably have twelve, but I personally don't see that many bids going to the northeast. In Germany Düsseldorf and Gladbach lost out to Nurenberg and Kaiserslautern, despite being larger cities with better stadiums and infrastructure based on proximity to the other stadiums in the region. New York is a for sure, Boston and Philly imo are maybes, but probably competing against each other one spot. Phoenix would be miserably hot, but so would Dallas and Houston. Unless Orlando builds a new stadium, they aren't even a possibility, not to mention it gets really hot in the summer, that definitely works in Miami's favor.

Personally, especially after looking through some of FIFA's guides on hosting, it's fair to expect both stadium and general public infrastructure to be one of the deciding factors. To say it's all going to be on how cosmopolitan and "international" a city is is the big factor is kind of foolish. Cities with plenty of hotel rooms, good mass transit and serious international airports are going to have a big leg up just on that. The percived make up of the citizenry is certainly a part of it, but to say Columbus will be a better host than Minneapolis or Indy despite a nonexistant stadium outlook versus what will probably be two of the better ones anywhere doesn't make sense. If some games ended up in Ohio Cleveland is the only realistic host, if you don't have a stadium that can handle the event, you can't host it, that should be common sense.

Weather Could be key as well, the northeast, upper midwest and northwest are gorgeous in June. Around here the high is usually mid 70s F and sunny. Houston, Phoenix and the like might not be so nice (or with in 20 degrees of nice).

Last edited by Benn; July 10th, 2008 at 05:28 AM.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 05:30 AM   #530
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US will not get the cup in 2022. Its going to China, Possibly Australia.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 06:10 AM   #531
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US won't get it because its coming here in 2010

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....ap/index.html


Yep. Shocker. No one saw this coming [/sarcasm]
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Old July 10th, 2008, 11:31 AM   #532
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As for the travel complains...they can schedule the groups to play in each regions and only travel outside the region for the 2nd round, quarters, semi's etc;

For example, have groups A & B play in the west (seattle, SF, LA), groups C & D in the east (DC, NYC, Boston), groups E & F in the south (houston, dallas, miami), and groups G & H in the midwest (denver, chicago, indy/minny). This way fans won't have to travel as much, until the 2nd round at least.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 09:16 PM   #533
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No I agree that the cosmopolitan factor won't be the overriding factor in the decision. Venues and access to venues are going to be more important, but the cosmo factor can play some part (especially if the city completely lacks any). But more often than not, the truly cosmo cities already have the important infrastructure mentioned. So it might be a moot point.

We keep mentioning Phoenix, but I don't see why we're grouping Phoenix with Houston or Miami. Those are cities more in the "actual" South. Phoenix is in the Southwest, the same region as LA and San Diego (though they're on the coast). Phoenix is actually pretty close to LA and SD, and much further away from Houston or Miami.
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Old July 10th, 2008, 11:52 PM   #534
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Yeah but if you put it in the west then what happens with Seattle? Very likely to host and really won't fit into any othergroup Geographically. So maybe Phoenix drops for that reason, and average june temp. Miami doesn't in really fit anywhere interms of reducing travel times, but a city that big, with a good stadium and good weather is hard to pass on. And it would be a little suprising if Florida didn't get a few games.
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Old July 11th, 2008, 12:02 AM   #535
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US won't get it because its coming here in 2010

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....ap/index.html


Yep. Shocker. No one saw this coming [/sarcasm]
The United State has much better chances of getting the 2010 world cup than the one in 2022. So you better pray south africa does not meet the requirements by 2010.
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Old July 11th, 2008, 05:32 AM   #536
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The United State has much better chances of getting the 2010 world cup than the one in 2022. So you better pray south africa does not meet the requirements by 2010.
That's kind of a bad thing to wish for. You're basically wishing ill will on South Africa, just so that the US gets a chance to host the WC. Very selfish.
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Old July 11th, 2008, 06:49 AM   #537
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That's kind of a bad thing to wish for. You're basically wishing ill will on South Africa, just so that the US gets a chance to host the WC. Very selfish.
I dont think he wants the US to host a WC
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Old July 11th, 2008, 11:09 AM   #538
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The United State has much better chances of getting the 2010 world cup than the one in 2022. So you better pray south africa does not meet the requirements by 2010.
I'm sorry but South Africa will get things straight unlike Colombia.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 02:23 AM   #539
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I'm sorry but South Africa will get things straight unlike Colombia.
then say bye bye to a world cup in the U.S., at least during your lifetime.
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Old July 12th, 2008, 07:06 AM   #540
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Short of total economic collapse I would be shocked if the US doesn't host in the next 20 years or so. If you take the assumption that FIFA is just going to keep going to countries that have yet to host, then I don't think you understand FIFA and how money driven it is. Our economy should pick up in the next couple of years (assuming we get out of or scale down the stupid war we are in at the moment, and stop borrowing trillions of dollars to fund it). China will probably host before too long but I think 2026 is more realistic, not to mention just about every major Chinese stadium has an athletics track, which FIFA will try to avoid when possible (though not as much as one would expect).
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