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Old April 15th, 2009, 12:50 AM   #941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salaverryo View Post
Europeans are so obsessed about roofed stadiums!
Not about roofed stadiums but covered stands.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 12:54 AM   #942
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Originally Posted by en1044 View Post
If we dont care about getting wet then what does it matter?
Who cares what you think. When those who pay hundreds of million Euro demand a shelter they'll get it.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 01:09 AM   #943
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Who cares what you think. When those who pay hundreds of million Euro demand a shelter they'll get it.
Not in the US. Its not just what I think, its what all Americans think.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 05:56 AM   #944
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Why this roofed stadium debate is useless and stupid:

If the US had to host 2010 with all roofed, all seated stadiums, we could do it.

Reliant Stadium
New Cowboys Stadium
Alamodome
University of Phoenix
Georgia Dome
Lucas Oil Field
Louisiana Superdome
Ford Field
Pontiac Silverdome
Metrodome/New Vikings stadium
Edward Jones
Qwest Field

add to that, Cleveland and Miami are both talking about adding retractable roofs to their stadiums.
Only thing missing are the LA, NY, Boston and DC. If we didn't have to serve these markets then no one would even talk about roofs.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 06:03 AM   #945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Hot showers and other comforts are awaiting the players right after the game. Fans, however, walk home without such treatment and wait for minutes in draughty stations. You don't support your team by getting wet and catching a cold. A simply roof can keep thousands of supporters dry and most importantly keep the noise where it belongs.

Anyway, the required roof on main stands of World Cup stadiums isn't meant to cover supporters. This roof is needed to keep the staff and equipment of hundreds of TV stations dry and working.
No one will catch a cold when it rains in the summer in the US, if anything it would be a welcome relief from the heat.
Look, roofs would help for shade but every country has it sets of compromises for the US it's the roof issue. For other countries it's something else, no bid is perfect. It's up to FIFA to decide who ultimately has a the best bid.

But I think the lack of roofs is not good enough on it's own to disqualify the US bid. It's a molehill not a mountain.
Besides, theres plenty of stadiums in the US who do have roofs. But they all aren't necessarily in the "right" cities areas. I'm not sure if Alabama in the middle of summer would the right place for a world cup.

Qwest, Reliant, Arlington, Lucas Oil, Ford Field, Phoenix even a couple of college stadiums have nice covered stands.

But then, some of those cities aren't by the best transportation centers. So covered stands aren't end all be all.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 06:06 AM   #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salaverryo View Post
Europeans are so obsessed about roofed stadiums!
not only us, take a look at the new stadiums/projects everywhere in the world !

Quote:
Originally Posted by en1044 View Post
Not in the US. Its not just what I think, its what all Americans think.
Are you so sure, are you a kind of representative for 350 Millions citizens ?
Because I know some, who tried covered stands in Europe or elsewhere and they liked the atmosphere !

I think, even if I say all that I can, your opinions about everything will never change and stay to "everything I/we do or think is right".
You have to know that is not the point of view of "all Americans"...Far from that, fortunately.
You could say I'm "Anti-American" after that, but it won't be true, I'm Anti: People (from everywhere: don't be paranoiac) who pretend to know everything better than others and people who are convinced to be in the right way unlike others !

Anyway, I understand very well that it's two different cultures, but the point is we are talking about Soccer and WC bidding, that why you should adapt, DURING THE WC, the host stadiums for soccer culture (unlike 94 World Cup, although I love Bowls but not for soccer games).
Many soccer fans, from every part of the world, will come and their culture is with covered stands for the great majority of them, WC is made for fans !

For example in outdoor Tennis, our culture (in France) is not with covered stands and we don't have ones, today.

If I have the right to show European soccer culture:

As told before, roofs protect us from the bad weather or sunlights, the acoustic is much better and this is better for the atmosphere and warmth of the venue.
Many American fans (soccer and football) should try once in their lifetime an European soccer or rugby Stadium with its roof over the stands !

Hampden Park


Celtic Park


Borussia, Dortmund


Fenerbahce, Istanbul (the best Asian club in Europe)


BTW, I've already post my choice of venues for a FIFA world cup in USA, besides, with many stadiums without roof !

Last edited by parcdesprinces; April 15th, 2009 at 06:14 AM.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 06:14 AM   #947
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What i'm basically gathering from this debate is....

Americans - Don't feel the need for covered roof's and are adamant about it, to the extent it could be considered arrogant.

Various people's from other parts of the world - That roof's are a WC FIFA regulation and do much for the atmosphere of the sport in general, again in a semi arrogant stance.

Seems to be a stand-off to me.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 06:25 AM   #948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parcdesprinces View Post
You could say I'm "Anti-American" after that, but it won't be true, I'm Anti: People (from everywhere: don't be paranoiac) who pretend to know everything better than others and people who are convinced to be in the right way unlike others !

Then tell me...whats the point of having the WC in different countries if everything is supposed to be the same? If you have it here, then you have to accept the fact that stadiums arent going to have roofs. Why should we adapt? Why should we change to be like everyone else when we are perfectly happy the way we are?

For a long time, there were tons of stadiums all around the world that didnt have roofs. It was alright then, and it will continue to be ok. How many Spanish stadiums dont have roofs? It still ok.

How can you tell me that im pretending to know everything? How are you not acting like someone who knows better than me? You are trying to tell us what we should have. We are fine with what we have, we dont need any input on it. We know the weather and culture here better than anyone else. We know what we're doing.

Obviously you dont realize the discussions that have been had on this site, as you are new.

Do not come here and tell me that I am wrong regarding my own country. I may not stand for 100% of all Americans when it comes to roofs but im pretty sure i stand for at least 90% of them. Its probably hard for you to fathom not watching a game under a roof but it can be done. We do it all the time.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 06:27 AM   #949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthemod View Post
What i'm basically gathering from this debate is....

Americans - Don't feel the need for covered roof's and are adamant about it, to the extent it could be considered arrogant.

Various people's from other parts of the world - That roof's are a WC FIFA regulation and do much for the atmosphere of the sport in general, again in a semi arrogant stance.

Seems to be a stand-off to me.
1.) Roofs are not a WC FIFA regulation, but rather a suggestion. Covering the media and dignitaries are. Modern stadia have suites and American football stadia have pressboxes just for this.

2.) Roofs are something that mostly occured in England and Germany until very recently. Yes you had other roofed stadiums, but it seems this didn't boom until FIFA and UEFA began to suggest/require them . To suggest its part of the atmosphere worldwide would then be a misnomer unless you're going to say the rest of world's soccer had no atmosphere prior to this decade.

3.) As you can see by my list there are plenty of roofed stadia in the US even though we don't feel the need. A roof in England means getting fans out of the rain. A roof in California means hiding healthy people from 80 degree sunshine OR greedy owner who simply wants every event under the sun in his stadium.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 06:28 AM   #950
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Rantonamo makes a good point. Also Americans aren't afraid to battle a little nature to watch the games. I love getting sun burned or rained on during a football game.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 07:10 AM   #951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by en1044 View Post
Then tell me...whats the point of having the WC in different countries if everything is supposed to be the same?
The cities, the countries (host and qualified) aren't the same and this is the most important !

Quote:
For a long time, there were tons of stadiums all around the world that didnt have roofs. It was alright then, and it will continue to be ok. How many Spanish stadiums dont have roofs? It still ok.
Time is changing, take a look, in Europe, for big countries this is not due to UEFA !

Quote:
You are trying to tell us what we should have. We are fine with what we have, we dont need any input on it. We know the weather and culture here better than anyone else. We know what we're doing.
Again, stop talking in the name of a whole Nation (you didn't built this nation as far I know) !

For your own sports, indeed, you can do everything you want !

I'm trying to explain you need to respect the soccer cultures, even European ones (which is the half of the world cup). We are talking about an International competitions with international rules (official and unofficial). It' s not simply a matter of roofs or Stadiums............this is also your (personnally) state of mind !

Quote:
Its probably hard for you to fathom not watching a game under a roof but it can be done. We do it all the time.
No it isn't, I did it In Lane Stadium, Yankee Stadium and Old Soldierfield, and In some European Stadiums !
I liked it and I can make a comparison................................
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Old April 15th, 2009, 07:22 AM   #952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parcdesprinces View Post
The cities, the countries (host and qualified) aren't the same and this is the most important !



Time is changing, take a look, in Europe, for big countries this is not due to UEFA !



Again, stop talking in the name of a whole Nation (you didn't built this nation as far I know) !

For your own sports, indeed, you can do everything you want !

I'm trying to explain you need to respect the soccer cultures, even European ones (which is the half of the world cup). We are talking about an International competitions with international rules (official and unofficial). It' s not simply a matter of roofs or Stadiums............this is also your (personnally) state of mind !



No it isn't, I did it In Lane Stadium, Yankee Stadium and Old Soldierfield, and In some European Stadiums !
I liked it and I can make a comparison................................
But its not necessarily soccer culture. Its a European thing that caught on in the rest of the world. And I believe I can speak for all Americans when I say that roofs really arent needed here. I live here, I know what people like. Common sense.

Take a look at stadiums in North and South America. There are TONS that dont have roofs, in stadiums that are mainly soccer nations. Roof culture came because Europeans needed them to stay dry, then they became the norm. Because FIFA has such a strong Euro influence, guess why so many stadiums started being built with roofs?

Come over to this side of the Atlantic. In both NA and SA, in soccer countries and non soccer countries, there are roofless stadiums all over the place. Even Brazil, the most successful of them all, has tons of roofless stadiums. We have weather that is suitable to fans sitting in the open. Europe, Asia and Africa are all very connected with each other and ideas spread freely, allowing the concept of roofs to spread. Over here, we did our own thing. Stadiums evolved differently, even for soccer. So to say that roofs are needed to be a soccer stadium is just ignorant. Roofs are not needed for atmosphere...its the people who truly make it.

Roofless stadiums arent just an American thing, its as international as anything else.
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Last edited by en1044; April 15th, 2009 at 07:39 AM.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 08:48 AM   #953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by en1044 View Post
But its not necessarily soccer culture. Its a European thing that caught on in the rest of the world.

Take a look at stadiums in North and South America. There are TONS that dont have roofs, in stadiums that are mainly soccer nations. Roof culture came because Europeans needed them to stay dry, then they became the norm. Because FIFA has such a strong Euro influence, guess why so many stadiums started being built with roofs?

Come over to this side of the Atlantic. In both NA and SA, in soccer countries and non soccer countries, there are roofless stadiums all over the place. Even Brazil, the most successful of them all, has tons of roofless stadiums. We have weather that is suitable to fans sitting in the open. Europe, Asia and Africa are all very connected with each other and ideas spread freely, allowing the concept of roofs to spread. Over here, we did our own thing. Stadiums evolved differently, even for soccer. So to say that roofs are needed to be a soccer stadium is just ignorant. Roofs are not needed for atmosphere...its the people who truly make it.

Roofless stadiums arent just an American thing, its as international as anything else.
I Already know all of that and it's true (there is some cultural specificities beetween stadiums in Europe. Eastern ones was quite differents than ours, Italian ones differents than French ones, roofed or not) !

I've been to Santiago and Rio (I didn't go to see a game there) but, indeed, their very old stadiums are roofless. As you said, their next generation of stadium will be built with roofs, not only due to FIFA but especially due to the hegemonics UEFA Champions League and Brit Premier League !

I'm wondering if is not this hegemony which makes you sick ????
Because, today it comes to US Soccer (Red Bull Arena is typically an European Stadium, and surely not the last one).

About the atmosphere, believe me it does (for soccer games), as I said, try it in Europe before judging !
Ask to Marseille (on the Med sea) fans who don't have a roof over the four stands... They have never stop to ask for a roof since the refurbishment of their stadium in 1998 for the world cup, because of the violent and cold Mistral wind in the stadium and they can't hear their chants although they are some of the greatest fans of Europe !

Marseille, Stade Vélodrome
image hosted on flickr




Except that, remember US very first stadiums, they had a roof (especially baseball ones). I'm wondering what happened ?
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Old April 15th, 2009, 09:05 AM   #954
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It's just a matter of culture. Here in the US, the majority of people like the weather during sporting events (for the most part) and consider it a badge of honor to sit through the bad weather when it comes. In Europe, a lot of people feel that the fans should be protected from the weather. Neither is right nor wrong, it's just a matter of different cultures and unless you want to take on an entire culture, it's a useless argument. It's just a difference without a right or wrong.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 09:44 AM   #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by en1044 View Post
Then tell me...whats the point of having the WC in different countries if everything is supposed to be the same? If you have it here, then you have to accept the fact that stadiums arent going to have roofs. Why should we adapt? Why should we change to be like everyone else when we are perfectly happy the way we are?

For a long time, there were tons of stadiums all around the world that didnt have roofs. It was alright then, and it will continue to be ok. How many Spanish stadiums dont have roofs? It still ok.

How can you tell me that im pretending to know everything? How are you not acting like someone who knows better than me? You are trying to tell us what we should have. We are fine with what we have, we dont need any input on it. We know the weather and culture here better than anyone else. We know what we're doing.

Obviously you dont realize the discussions that have been had on this site, as you are new.

Do not come here and tell me that I am wrong regarding my own country. I may not stand for 100% of all Americans when it comes to roofs but im pretty sure i stand for at least 90% of them. Its probably hard for you to fathom not watching a game under a roof but it can be done. We do it all the time.
This is the attitude that has brought you Americans into so much trouble, so just go on with it. You are after all the Leader of the Free World.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 10:45 AM   #956
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I don't think this will make much of a difference on voting day, but President Obama wrote a letter to FIFA in support of the US WC bid for 2018/2022:

Quote:
"As a child, I played soccer on a dirt road in Jakarta, and the game brought the children of my neighborhood together," Obama said, according to excerpts released Tuesday by the U.S. Soccer Federation. "As a father, I saw that same spirit of unity alive on the fields and sidelines of my own daughters' soccer games in Chicago."

FIFA's executive committee will decide the hosts for both tournaments in December 2010. The United States hosted the World Cup for the first time in 1994, and the 52 games drew records for total attendance (3.59 million) and average (68,991).

"Soccer is truly the world's sport, and the World Cup promotes camaraderie and friendly competition across the globe," Obama wrote. "That is why this bid is about much more than a game. It is about the United States of America inviting the world to gather all across our great country in celebration of our common hopes and dreams."
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Old April 15th, 2009, 02:12 PM   #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantanamo View Post
1.) Roofs are not a WC FIFA regulation, but rather a suggestion. Covering the media and dignitaries are. Modern stadia have suites and American football stadia have pressboxes just for this.
Your comments makes me wonder whether you are actually aware what a World Cup is. Gathering the whole world isn't just a meaningless phrase in case of football. It is a reality with the consequence that radio and TV station from almost 200 countries require space within the stadium.

The pressboxes you mentioned are fine for a few local and one nationwide TV and radio networks that broadcast a NFL game. They are, however, nowhere near enough for World Cup games.

This picture gives you a rough idea what it means and what is needed when the whole world is watching a game.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 02:22 PM   #958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by en1044 View Post
Roofs are not needed for atmosphere...its the people who truly make it.
.
Maybe this applies in gridiron but roofs are good for atmosphere in a soccer context. If the only type of noise produced by soccer fans was the white noise effect you get in america when fans are trying to make life difficult for a team trying to make a play then I might agree with you but world football atmosphere is different from gridiron atmosphere. Chants and songs dont catch on so well if the noise goes up and out of the stadium.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 06:00 PM   #959
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I have to say that this is just a damn silly debate with the roof thing.

Many American sports venues have roofs. The concept that American sports fans/teams do not want a roof is just plain crazy. I think this concept comes from Baseball. There are only a scant few baseball fields in the world with roofs, I THINK like 5/30 for MLB and and I doubt there is a cricket ground in all the world with a roof. It is because of the nature of the sport. There are 159 Minor league Baseball stadiums without roofs. Zero with roofs. In America, going to a game and soaking in the sun and the beer is an American tradition.

Part of the equation is cost. Only the huge pro baseball teams can build stadiums with retractable roofs and whatnot. its just too damn expensive for every team to do.

Rignt now the 8or so MLS teams with their own stadiums have minimal roofs purely because it is a fledgling league and draws roughly 15,000 fans a game with minimal tv and sponsorship revenues. Building a stadium even as nice as Leverkusen is unheard of here. It is starting to change but be absolutely certain it has nothing to do with a preferance. it is a money issue. as the league continues to grow and expand the new stadiums will all have roofs of some kind. Roofs make sense.

Most new NFL stadiums have roofs, partial or retractable. The era of the roofless stadium is pretty much over but thats because back before the 80s the goal was just to get as many people inside the venue as possible. Now the goal is to get as much money as possible out of each person you can get into the stadium. Luxury boxes, comfy seating all demand higher prices. so teams are adding roofs to make the experience more comfortable. this is essential when you pay a minimum of 80 per seat. people demand more for their money. Also NFL stadiums used to be paid for by the team, now they are multi billion dollar bonding issues paid for my the team, the league, the city and the state. there is a lot more money to pay for extras like retractable roofs.

Minor league baseball with its sunny or rainy seats only costs about 10 bucks a seat, and major league soccer is only maybe 20 each so you get what you pay for.

The huge American NFL stadiums are a point of pride for their regions and athats why they have roofs. the huge European clubs represent the region as well. in some areas like Scottland they might represent one religion vs another. because of these factors most European clubs reflect the pride of the region and have all the bells and whistles. Football grounds are revered and spoken about like members of the family. Family deserves a roof

Last edited by The Voice of reason; April 15th, 2009 at 06:14 PM.
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Old April 15th, 2009, 06:34 PM   #960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Your comments makes me wonder whether you are actually aware what a World Cup is. Gathering the whole world isn't just a meaningless phrase in case of football. It is a reality with the consequence that radio and TV station from almost 200 countries require space within the stadium.

The pressboxes you mentioned are fine for a few local and one nationwide TV and radio networks that broadcast a NFL game. They are, however, nowhere near enough for World Cup games.

This picture gives you a rough idea what it means and what is needed when the whole world is watching a game.
?

Do you have any idea how large these pressboxes are in an NFL stadium? Most take up an entire sideline area that you may think are suites and have larger capacities than individual suites. This is why they DON'T count press credentials for capacity in the NFL while they do in college. There are thousands of credentials given out each game and space to accomodate them. Especially stadiums like U of Phoenix who are bidding for the Super Bowl each year. Its the NFL that is being underestimated here. Its hard to imagine because its just an individual league in on nation, but these stadiums are built with these events in mind, not just the needs of their home team.

As I said, moot point as the US could host the World Cup tomorrow and have more than enough large roofed stadia. Why is this being ignored? Everyone talks of roofed stadia like they don't exist in North America. We have what you want right now

1.)Reliant Stadium
2.)New Cowboys Stadium
3.)Alamodome
4.)University of Phoenix
5.)Georgia Dome
6.)Lucas Oil Field
7.)Louisiana Superdome
8.)Ford Field
9.)Pontiac Silverdome
10.)Metrodome/New Vikings stadium
11.)Edward Jones
12.)Qwest Field

what's the problem?
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