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Old July 28th, 2009, 11:58 PM   #1401
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Originally Posted by berkshire royal View Post
Although you wrote this a bit forecefully I can see your point and it is one of my SMALL reservations of a US World Cup. One of the things I like about the modern World Cup is that it leaves behind a host of new stadiums and an improved infrastructure for that nation, we saw it in Korea/Japan, Germany, Brazil and you would probably see it in all the other nations it they get a World Cup but it wouldn't really make any difference on that front in the US. But it definately isn't a strong enough reason to not give them a World Cup.
Its great to have that new infrastructure, but it wasn't free.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 07:32 AM   #1402
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And a lot of that "legacy" in Japan/Korea are just some big white elephants.

And the main competitor to the USA for 2022, Australia, is not going to leave much legacy for soccer either.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 08:40 AM   #1403
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It is really interesting the position of Obama regarding the world cup. By that is almost sure that mexico will not be hosting its third world cup.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 10:19 AM   #1404
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And a lot of that "legacy" in Japan/Korea are just some big white elephants.

And the main competitor to the USA for 2022, Australia, is not going to leave much legacy for soccer either.
Not going to have much legacy? What about a chance to promote Soccer in the areas of Australia where it's least popular? The chance to have the indigenous population involved? The upgraded stadiums used for both NRL and A-League sides? The general infrastructure that will be in place? There's plenty of legacy to choose from.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 12:56 PM   #1405
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what I meant was the 94 World cup did verry little for America in comparison to what it has done for other host nations. there was no infrustructure gained and although MLS resulted from the World Cup it is a very small league for a country of 300,000,000. and shows the lack of interest for the sport across the US.

Admittadely a world cup would also do little to improve the state of the game in England due to its already massive following/league. yet this large following, the lack of a world cup for 60 years and england being the birthplace of football is more than enough to justify bringing back the cup.
If England can get it only once every 60 years i see little reason why the USA should recieve it once every 25.

Also in tearms of building the game north America has proved it will never be a major sport in the region whereas there is much room for growth in Asia/Oceania. of which the main bids for the two world cups is in Australia, where it would be of major benefit to the game and to the country.

Out of the many countries bidding for 2018/2022 i would be greatly dissapointed if it was granted to america as i believe it will gain the least from holding the event.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 02:14 PM   #1406
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Old July 29th, 2009, 05:47 PM   #1407
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Originally Posted by mvictory View Post
what I meant was the 94 World cup did verry little for America in comparison to what it has done for other host nations. there was no infrustructure gained and although MLS resulted from the World Cup it is a very small league for a country of 300,000,000. and shows the lack of interest for the sport across the US.

Admittadely a world cup would also do little to improve the state of the game in England due to its already massive following/league. yet this large following, the lack of a world cup for 60 years and england being the birthplace of football is more than enough to justify bringing back the cup.
If England can get it only once every 60 years i see little reason why the USA should recieve it once every 25.

Also in tearms of building the game north America has proved it will never be a major sport in the region whereas there is much room for growth in Asia/Oceania. of which the main bids for the two world cups is in Australia, where it would be of major benefit to the game and to the country.

Out of the many countries bidding for 2018/2022 i would be greatly dissapointed if it was granted to america as i believe it will gain the least from holding the event.
Same thoughts that are dividing Formula 1 right now. Potential money vs money in the bank. I'm not smart enough to decide which is best. If no one wants the US to have the Cup then so be it. But to sit there and pretend 1994 had no effect is simply incorrect.

As for England. Did they bid every 4 years? 60 years is irrelavent if they only bid a couple of times in that span.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 06:05 PM   #1408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvictory View Post
what I meant was the 94 World cup did verry little for America in comparison to what it has done for other host nations. there was no infrustructure gained and although MLS resulted from the World Cup it is a very small league for a country of 300,000,000. and shows the lack of interest for the sport across the US.

Admittadely a world cup would also do little to improve the state of the game in England due to its already massive following/league. yet this large following, the lack of a world cup for 60 years and england being the birthplace of football is more than enough to justify bringing back the cup.
If England can get it only once every 60 years i see little reason why the USA should recieve it once every 25.

Also in tearms of building the game north America has proved it will never be a major sport in the region whereas there is much room for growth in Asia/Oceania. of which the main bids for the two world cups is in Australia, where it would be of major benefit to the game and to the country.

Out of the many countries bidding for 2018/2022 i would be greatly dissapointed if it was granted to america as i believe it will gain the least from holding the event.
So because MLS isn't one of the world's best, it wasn't a major impact. It was only a month ago that many were praising the US team for their Confederations Cup play. Look how many of the players on that team played in MLS early in their careers. The US went to the quarterfinals in the 2002 World Cup. Tha doesn't happen without MLS, which produced a lot of the talent on that roster. Also, MLS has the 12th best attendance of any soccer league in the world, ahead of Scotland and Portugal, so it's not an insignificant league. It's actually pretty darn good for a league that began in 1996 when you compare it to 60, 80 or 100 year old leagues.

That World Cup also funded our youth development programs, which are thriving and seeing many players offered academy options from the world's top clubs. It also led to SUM, which is becoming a huge part of soccer here, as it arranges sponsorships, TV deals and matches, including the friendlies here with European clubs that have drawn 50,000, 60,000, 70,000, 80,000 and 90,000. Countries that don't care about soccer don't put 90,000 people in the seats.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 06:56 PM   #1409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvictory View Post
what I meant was the 94 World cup did verry little for America in comparison to what it has done for other host nations. there was no infrustructure gained and although MLS resulted from the World Cup it is a very small league for a country of 300,000,000. and shows the lack of interest for the sport across the US.

Admittadely a world cup would also do little to improve the state of the game in England due to its already massive following/league. yet this large following, the lack of a world cup for 60 years and england being the birthplace of football is more than enough to justify bringing back the cup.
If England can get it only once every 60 years i see little reason why the USA should recieve it once every 25.

Also in tearms of building the game north America has proved it will never be a major sport in the region whereas there is much room for growth in Asia/Oceania. of which the main bids for the two world cups is in Australia, where it would be of major benefit to the game and to the country.

Out of the many countries bidding for 2018/2022 i would be greatly dissapointed if it was granted to america as i believe it will gain the least from holding the event.

Exactly that's a great post.A lot of the stadiums in England need updating so winning the World Cup in 2018 will see stadiums improving up and down the country,so football will benefit here from this.Personally I think it's in the bag.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 06:59 PM   #1410
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MLS has the 12th best attendance of any soccer league in the world, ahead of Scotland and Portugal
Scottish football is awful,some teams barely have a ground and are in really remote places were the population is really tiny.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 06:59 PM   #1411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryebreadraz View Post
So because MLS isn't one of the world's best, it wasn't a major impact. It was only a month ago that many were praising the US team for their Confederations Cup play. Look how many of the players on that team played in MLS early in their careers. The US went to the quarterfinals in the 2002 World Cup. Tha doesn't happen without MLS, which produced a lot of the talent on that roster. Also, MLS has the 12th best attendance of any soccer league in the world, ahead of Scotland and Portugal, so it's not an insignificant league. It's actually pretty darn good for a league that began in 1996 when you compare it to 60, 80 or 100 year old leagues.
Well, well. MLS franchises each purposely placed in a conurbation of several million people draw bigger crowds than Kilmarnock and Aberdeen. This is truly impressive. Powerhouses like the USA really should host a World Cup every other decade.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 07:03 PM   #1412
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And the main competitor to the USA for 2022, Australia, is not going to leave much legacy for soccer either.
Way, way wrong.
Newcastle stadium would be upgraded from 33,000 to 40,000+
Melbourne rectangular stadium would be upgraded from 31,500 to 50,000+
Canberra 45,000 rectangular stadium would be built
Either a Carrara stadium of Robina stadium upgrade to over 40,000 at the Gold Coast

Those are 4 already announced, guaranteed upgrades to go ahead only if Australia wins the bid.

Along with that there would be almost certainly
Townsville stadium upgrade to modern 45,000 stadium, with possible temporary stands reverting to 25,000
Perth rectangular stadium or multi purpose stadium would be built helping Rugby union, rugby league, obviously soccer and possibly cricket and AFL as well
Adelaide is in the same situation as Perth

Thats another 3 proposals which are either only going to go ahead if Australia wins the bid, or are likely to produce far better stadia for soccer as opposed to other proposed upgrades.

So thats seven major stadium infrastructure upgrades.

Along with that there would be serious investment in other areas of infrastructure, which due to Australia's smaller size, would have a higher relative impact.



All that, however, probably counts for very little when Blatter comes out in support of the USA bid:
http://player.sbs.com.au/twg#/twg_08...ks-US-Cup-bid/

Our prime minister has to travel to Zurich to get a meeting with sep.
Your president it seems, has sep come over to his house, and gets a personal invite to South Africa next year.

Funny how he talks about the new rotation policy, which AFAIK does not exist... or does he mean the old one which has been discontinued??? ohh FIFA and their policies...

Race not over yet. He really had no choice but talk positively about your chances when he is in your country. Still, the most positive thing he had to say about Australia while in Sydney last year, was "Australia isnt that far away after all". lol

Last edited by woozoo; July 29th, 2009 at 07:13 PM.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 07:11 PM   #1413
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Also, MLS has the 12th best attendance of any soccer league in the world, ahead of Scotland and Portugal, so it's not an insignificant league.
The MLS average attendance is about the same as the A league attendance. Difference is USA pop = 300 mil. Aus pop = 21 mil

I guess some people mean when they say that the 94 world cup was a failure in promoting the game in USA, is that they expected more. Its still a relatively small league (despite being in the richest country in the world), and lags far behind other sports in terms of interest. It took more than a decade before the league stopped paying tv networks to air games!

It has come along though recently, and as someone said, is probably comparable to something like the Greek league in terms of quality (maybe a little weaker)? It produces talent and is actually sustainable financially. You could ask for a lot more but its getting there slowly which is good.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 07:24 PM   #1414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
Way, way wrong.
Newcastle stadium would be upgraded from 33,000 to 40,000+
Melbourne rectangular stadium would be upgraded from 31,500 to 50,000+
Canberra 45,000 rectangular stadium would be built
Either a Carrara stadium of Robina stadium upgrade to over 40,000 at the Gold Coast
And those wouldn't be white elephants? Who the hell is going to fill those regularly? Canberra doesn't even have an A-League team and they're the goddamn capital. The Newcastle Knights are way more popular than the Jets but still struggle to stay afloat because they play in what's effectively a regional town but world standards. Only AFL averages that high and they certainly won't be playing on rectangular pitches anytime soon (except against Ireland).

This is just more in the long line of inexplicable animosity from Aussies toward American soccer. You're no better off just because you make a concerted effort to call it "football" now.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 08:02 PM   #1415
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Yer, my two posts are FULL of animosity towards US soccer...

Melbourne wouldn't be a white elephant. Crowds average 24,000 after only 4 years, and at the hated, oval etihad stadium. Big games pull crowds around 35k and finals sell out 55. Watch how many games sell out at the rectangular ground with 31 capacity in two seasons time.

Newcastle knights average around 20k at their current outdated stadium. In a new ground in 13 years time after steady population growth, a 40k stadium would be adequate.

Titans already sell out robina quite often. Forecasts show the population should grow from 500 to 800k by 2020, so an upgrade would be useful.

Canberra needs a new stadium capable of hosting bigger socceroos games, state of origin and wallabies games. The proposed plan would inlude a new athletics stadium, a rectangular ground, and reverting Bruce stadium to oval for footy, all in the one major sports precinct. It's a ripper plan for the capital. Canberra could easily have an a league team by 2022.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 08:50 PM   #1416
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Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
The MLS average attendance is about the same as the A league attendance. Difference is USA pop = 300 mil. Aus pop = 21 mil
By almost the same you mean, 20-25% higher? Total attendance is almost 3 times larger and with 3 teams averaging about 20K fans entering the league in the next two years, it's only going to be higher.

For god sakes, your national team coach won't even callup players in the A-League because he doesn't respect it. There was an article in the guardian about it and no one disagreed in the comments. It was just various permutations of "Yes, I agree. The A-league is rubbish". I'll go dig it out, if you don't believe me.

Let's at least agree to use facts and not blatant half-truths. I'm not against an Australian bid, but people don't have to minimize the impact of the sport in the United States. Who knows where the league will be in 2022.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 10:35 PM   #1417
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So because MLS isn't one of the world's best, it wasn't a major impact. It was only a month ago that many were praising the US team for their Confederations Cup play. Look how many of the players on that team played in MLS early in their careers. The US went to the quarterfinals in the 2002 World Cup. Tha doesn't happen without MLS, which produced a lot of the talent on that roster. Also, MLS has the 12th best attendance of any soccer league in the world, ahead of Scotland and Portugal, so it's not an insignificant league. It's actually pretty darn good for a league that began in 1996 when you compare it to 60, 80 or 100 year old leagues.

That World Cup also funded our youth development programs, which are thriving and seeing many players offered academy options from the world's top clubs. It also led to SUM, which is becoming a huge part of soccer here, as it arranges sponsorships, TV deals and matches, including the friendlies here with European clubs that have drawn 50,000, 60,000, 70,000, 80,000 and 90,000. Countries that don't care about soccer don't put 90,000 people in the seats.

12th in the world? I make it 11th of the list I've seen. Still, that's really nothing to shout about.

Rank Country Average Attendance Population
1 Germany 41,914 82,000,000
2 England 36,076 51,000,000
3 Spain 29,214 47,000,000
4 Italy 23,180 60,000,000
5 France 21,050 65,000,000
6 Argentina 20,886 40,000,000
7 Holland 19,827 16,000,000
8 Japan 19,278 127,000,000
9 England (2nd League) 17,022 51,000,000
10 Brazil 16,992 191,000,000
11 USA 16,460 307,000,000
12 Germany (2nd League) 15,550 82,000,000
13 Scotland 14,915 5,000,000
14 Turkey 14,058 73,000,000
15 China 13, 534 1,400,000,000


Apart from China the US is by the biggest population there and is quite low down on the list. It's even worse if you think of the difference in the size of the cities.

To put into perspective, Norwich City have sold more than the MLS average in season tickets alone, and they are in the third tier this season.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 10:44 PM   #1418
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Originally Posted by SSE View Post
12th in the world? I make it 11th of the list I've seen. Still, that's really nothing to shout about.

Rank Country Average Attendance Population
1 Germany 41,914 82,000,000
2 England 36,076 51,000,000
3 Spain 29,214 47,000,000
4 Italy 23,180 60,000,000
5 France 21,050 65,000,000
6 Argentina 20,886 40,000,000
7 Holland 19,827 16,000,000
8 Japan 19,278 127,000,000
9 England (2nd League) 17,022 51,000,000
10 Brazil 16,992 191,000,000
11 USA 16,460 307,000,000
12 Germany (2nd League) 15,550 82,000,000
13 Scotland 14,915 5,000,000
14 Turkey 14,058 73,000,000
15 China 13, 534 1,400,000,000


Apart from China the US is by the biggest population there and is quite low down on the list. It's even worse if you think of the difference in the size of the cities.

To put into perspective, Norwich City have sold more than the MLS average in season tickets alone, and they are in the third tier this season.
Yeah but in the US soccer is maybe the 5th most popular sport. I'd say those numbers are pretty good for what its come from since 1996 and having to compete with other sports.

16K a match isnt low at all.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 11:19 PM   #1419
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5th most popular sport in US isn't really comparable here because after football, Rugby Union, Cricket and Rugby League we don't really have a sport with a regular professional season or any stadium infrastructure. Tennis? Golf? F1?
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Old July 30th, 2009, 12:56 AM   #1420
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And those wouldn't be white elephants? Who the hell is going to fill those regularly? Canberra doesn't even have an A-League team and they're the goddamn capital. The Newcastle Knights are way more popular than the Jets but still struggle to stay afloat because they play in what's effectively a regional town but world standards. Only AFL averages that high and they certainly won't be playing on rectangular pitches anytime soon (except against Ireland).

This is just more in the long line of inexplicable animosity from Aussies toward American soccer. You're no better off just because you make a concerted effort to call it "football" now.
All of those stadiums would be used year round with football in summer and nrl/super 14 in the winter. after the cup most of them are planned to be reduced to 25 000 which is perfect for those sports with the exception of the melbourne stadium which would remain at 50 000 because there main tennant averages 25 000 to regular season games with matches against rival teams regularly pulling 40-55000. none of these developments would be white elophants.

America has 300,000,000 people. therefore having similar attendance figures to scotland (5,000,000) and australia (20,000,000) is not something to boast about.
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