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Old August 28th, 2010, 02:18 PM   #441
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I know financial return is the main goal.......but the heart and soul of New York makes it more than places like Dubai etc.....
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Old August 28th, 2010, 05:07 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by Newcastle Guy View Post
I wouldn't say London is 'building for the sake of it'. Or even Shanghai for that matter, I'd say that label may apply more to places like Dubai. The reason London has maintained it's position as one of the most powerful cities in the world is because it continues to evolve, New York would do well to remember that. Many people were opposed to the buildings we now look back at with very fond memories, change is required to keep a city fresh. I'm not saying that every case is the same and buildings of any size should go up regardless, but we cannot be too protective over our cities, it leads to stagnation. I do not know enough about this particular case to make a reasonable argument either way, but regarding the architecture of the project I think (with top-notch materials) it could be a very handsome building. It has good proportions, an elegant but understated top, and isn't too attention-seeking, which should be a good thing given it's location.
Yes but take the Shanghai World Financial Center.

They took over 10 years to build it. So with a billion people who are willing to work for 5 cents an hour - it still took 10 years to build it. That means that it isn't remotely in the same class as the ESB. It's more in the same class as your uncle's shed which took him 2 years to finish, 9 years less than it took them to build the SWFC.

And in London the problem is as I have described it. There are too many empty towers. The City is empty. They have put a hold on some projects, like the Walkie Talkie, as I read it. And the famous Wharf area, which is less than 10 years old is empty. There are many office vacancies. Because the finance industry which powers London and all of the UK is in disarray and disrepute. They have even stopped making James Bond films, things are that bad in London at the moment. And what is interesting is that many are now thinking and saying, thank God they haven't built these giant monstrosities. Maybe we don't need them in London, which is famous for its 17th, 18th and 19th Century architectural styles.

Yes, there has been too much building "just for the sake of it", so they can all look like Chicago or New York or Hong Kong. It's city to city envy - plain and simple.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 08:00 PM   #443
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Turning Torso is nicer
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Old August 29th, 2010, 03:57 AM   #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
Conde Naste is moving out of a building that was built only about 10 years ago because it wants to occupy a new tower. Morgan Stanley plans to leave its building which was built about 20 years ago because it wants to occupy a new tower. That's how things work.
Unless they materialize these demands into some concrete steps like buying or leasing space all this to me today is a wish list.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 04:07 AM   #445
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First off, companies can not always find space in already built structures. Even if they do, do you think they would prefer to reside in a modern skyscraper situated in Midtown with all the amenities of the modern world, or some crappy 3 story cube with lighting from the 70's? It's not always about finding space, but the quality of the building being leased.

Also, the entire World Trade Center site will not provide enough square footage for the various companies on the prowl for space. 7 WTC is almost completely occupied, and most of 1 WTC is already leased. 4 WTC is getting there, which pretty much leaves just 2 and 3 WTC. These possess combined square footage of approx. 4.5 million square feet.

The 2 biggest potential tenants, Bank of America and Morgan Stanley, are looking for 1 million square feet of space each. Combine that with the numerous other companies looking for space and the even larger number of leases that will expire soon, and you can see why there is a need for high quality, modern skyscrapers to be constructed.
WTC #4 is the only one which is being leased to private companies and don't forget it is the most easy to lease. so is number 7.
Freedom tower almost entirely will be leased for now by the city and port authority. they do this more as a political gesture rather than economical. since once again - there are no clients. tower number 5 is completely canceled due to the same reason. number 2 and 3 is not even being proposed to build now to full height.

Now the location of Pennsylvania hotel is not in a middle of midtown and it is actually a rather run down area all together. Lets see if Vornado shows anyone who asked them for office space. If they are indeed leased more than 50 5 of the future tower - than there is some justification for building it. otherwise i see this as nothing else but real esate speculation. If the talk was about building the residential tower like MOMA then I can understand their desire. But more office space today, in this economy? with no any clear demand in sight - just some questionable lists of maybes. Nah this is not serious talk.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 04:39 AM   #446
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big debate about hotel is here
http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showth...=6337&page=109
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Old August 29th, 2010, 04:43 AM   #447
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JFlint, three weeks ago Conde Nest agreed to lease 1 million square feet at WTC 1 so that tower has a substantial corporate presence already. And I think as this site, the park/memorial, transportation hubs, and neighboring towers, inch closer to completion it will become a more desirable place to lease, I really think the dominos will start to fall.

And I don't see how 12-15 leases of 300,000+ square feet of commercial leases expiring in the next few years is questionable, but whatever. And you have links of this apparent shortening of WTC 2 & 3? Because I haven't heard a whisper about it.

WTC 1-4 will all get built at their current heights, as will 15 Penn.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 05:17 AM   #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFlint1985 View Post
WTC #4 is the only one which is being leased to private companies and don't forget it is the most easy to lease. so is number 7.
The Port Authority is leasing 1/3 of 4WTC. As for the million+ square foot government leases in 1WTC, I doubt we'll see those to full fruition. Maybe a token amount, but none of those leases are signed. I'm sure they were intended as a safety net to bar against the tower opening largely empty.

I agree with many of your points JF1985. But the fanboys on this site don't want to hear it.

One negative though is the leases moving around to other buildings just empties the former occupied one. Conde Nast moving to 1WTC is great and all. But it empties a big portion of 4 Times Square. Which just leaves it hustling to find another tenant. It's good that its getting new towers started, but really doesn't help the overall office space market.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 05:29 AM   #449
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Space in NY is constantly being recycled. The elite companies and firms keep driving demand for new space, and second and third-tier companies and firms then take on that formerly premier space.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 07:55 AM   #450
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JFlint, three weeks ago Conde Nest agreed to lease 1 million square feet at WTC 1 so that tower has a substantial corporate presence already. And I think as this site, the park/memorial, transportation hubs, and neighboring towers, inch closer to completion it will become a more desirable place to lease, I really think the dominos will start to fall.

And I don't see how 12-15 leases of 300,000+ square feet of commercial leases expiring in the next few years is questionable, but whatever. And you have links of this apparent shortening of WTC 2 & 3? Because I haven't heard a whisper about it.

WTC 1-4 will all get built at their current heights, as will 15 Penn.
you can read about towers 2 and 3 at SSP. it was reported there from different newspapers and sites that Developer and Port authority reached a deal that these two towers will only be build up to grade unless developer Larry Silverstein will find 100% proof tenants for more than 50% of the office space. otherwise all the underground structures will be finished and the rest will sit there and wait until the demand for new officer space will appear in the market. I don't remember all the details exactly - its been a while, but this is the deal on the table today. So far I didn't hear anything about possible lease of space in these future buildings. according to Port authority this market is dead for foreseeable future. I am not convinced that port is right in this grim assessment, but recent move of Meryl Lynch into a new Bank of America building from Downtown actually raised the amount of vacant office space class "A" to 16% which is VERY BAD. So I am quite uncertain that in this economic environment we need to talk about more office space. Expensive apartments - maybe. Hotels definitely. Mixed development is also a good idea. Offices - that depends on too many unknowns. too risky.

just something I just found


Quote:
Port Authority and Larry Silverstein Make Nice, for Now

It looks the endless fight over the actual ground zero (not to be confused with the old Burlington Coat Factory) might be coming to a close and construction might actually finally get under way, about eight years too late. The board of the New York City Port Authority voted to let developer Larry Silverstein build two buildings on the old World Trade Center site as long as he can find some tenants and $300 million in capital. It ends the most recent year-long stalemate.

Earlier this month, the Port Authority finalized a partnership with the Durst Organization to start working on the 1,776-foot tower that will serve as the centerpiece of the site; if all goes according to plan (which hasn't happened so far), construction will be finished by 2013. If it doesn't, well, at least we'll have that mosque thing to bicker about!
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/08...rry_silve.html
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Old August 29th, 2010, 08:17 AM   #451
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The very act of starting a plan for the rest of the WTC site ignited a ton of new interest in the site.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 09:42 AM   #452
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I really can't remember a better chance to put a money grubbing developer in their place over an historic property. They can build this tower downtown, using the fascia of an (or more than one) old low-rise building as its street level cladding. You can have nice cool towers and progress without trashing the soul of a place, but this is something NYC has always struggled with. I just hope it's moved, it seems like a decent design, but not at the cost of a landmark hotel renown the world over for easy access to nyc for travelers since built in 1919. Funny, ESB folks upset about it, but the hotel was there for over a decade before ESB was on paper.

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Old August 29th, 2010, 11:55 AM   #453
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Conde Nast moving to 1WTC is great and all. But it empties a big portion of 4 Times Square. Which just leaves it hustling to find another tenant.
Quote:
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Space in NY is constantly being recycled. The elite companies and firms keep driving demand for new space, and second and third-tier companies and firms then take on that formerly premier space.
So... Times Square is now a formerly premier space for second and third-tier companies ?

When did this happen?
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Old August 29th, 2010, 01:31 PM   #454
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i can't believe this tower got approved without a height cut! haha, the NIMBYs must be weeping now. this is the best news for NY recently. finally the ESB gets some serious company.
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Old August 29th, 2010, 03:26 PM   #455
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So... Times Square is now a formerly premier space for second and third-tier companies ?

When did this happen?
Not Times Square, but those buildings. More new towers will rise in Times Square including Vornado's tower by Rogers above the PA bus terminal.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 12:25 AM   #456
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http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TE02/308299991

Changing skyline is victory for NYC

By Greg David
August 29, 2010



Quote:
A few months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, noted New York historian Kenneth Jackson came to Crain's to lead a seminar on what history could tell us about the likely impact of the attacks.

He offered two important lessons. The first was that no disaster had changed the fundamental course of the city's history. He was right to apply that observation to Sept. 11. The terrorist attacks had very little permanent impact on the economy or on the city's attractiveness to individuals or businesses.

The second lesson was that New York's genius, and the key to maintaining its position as the nation's most important city, is based on New Yorkers' willingness to remake the city as its economy changes.

The second insight is crucial to understanding the stakes in last week's face-off between the Malkins, the owners of the Empire State Building, and Vornado, which wants to build a massive skyscraper almost as high as the famous landmark on the site of the virtually derelict Hotel Pennsylvania.

The Malkins deserve kudos for the way they have revitalized the Empire State Building. Their progress is evident from their leasing successes. They are close to signing the city's biggest lease of the year.

However, their campaign to block Vornado's tower and create a 12-block zone in which no large office building could be built to compete with the ESB is misguided. Cloaked in the guise of what's good for the aesthetic of New York, this is nothing more than protectionism for their profits. If they had succeeded, it would have come at a big cost to the city's economy.

New York simply is not building enough modern Class A office space to keep pace with the changing need of businesses. In recent years, the city has added an average of only 2 million square feet of office space annually, and the average age of existing office buildings is 57 years.
If the city doesn't build more as the economy improves, it will simply not have the room that financial services companies, law firms or media enterprises will need, and they will have to go elsewhere. The Vornado project is one part of the solution to that problem.

No matter what the Malkins do, they simply can't transform the Depression-era ESB into the type of space that's needed. It will never be home to a Morgan Stanley or a News Corp. or a Condé Nast.
The best news from last week is that the City Council agreed with Mr. Jackson. In words the historian would have heartily endorsed, Leroy Comrie of Queens asked, “Is New York City a snapshot taken in 2010 to be held in perpetuity, or is the city an evolving, dynamic entity?''

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Old August 30th, 2010, 12:30 AM   #457
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NWe don't need to prove that we are Shanghai or London and build for the sake of it.

Um.. you obviously haven't been to London - first of all there's nothing in the way of skyscrapers and if there's any city that needs to go skywards for the amount of trade that goes on, it's London. There is NO space left anywhere!!

Build for the sake of it is one of Dubai's favorite hobbies.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 06:37 AM   #458
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...WhatsNewsForth

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Old August 30th, 2010, 06:57 AM   #459
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that article hits the nail on the head...if high rises go up around the ESB it will become like Woolworth,which imo would be great. it would become the crown jewel of a high rise community.
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Old August 30th, 2010, 02:33 PM   #460
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that article hits the nail on the head...if high rises go up around the ESB it will become like Woolworth,which imo would be great. it would become the crown jewel of a high rise community.
yes the article is worth of being posted here:

On the Horizon, a New Manhattan Skyline

By ANTON TROIANOVSKI

Quote:
The city's approval of an office tower near the Empire State Building last week is the latest reminder that New York is poised for one of its biggest waves of skyscraper development in decades—provided the economy cooperates.

Developers are readying two residential towers that will rise above most of Midtown. The massive mixed-use development planned west of Penn Station would transform Manhattan's skyline as viewed from New Jersey. Downtown, the transformation is already happening, with the warped, metallic skin of Frank Gehry's Beekman Tower looming over the neighborhood around City Hall and, at Ground Zero, 1 World Trade Center already rising to 36 stories.

Some of the proposed alterations to the city's skyline have been opposed. Vornado Realty Trust's plan to build a tower near Penn Station attracted criticism from people wanting to preserve the Empire State Building's iconic spot.

But the new projects are being propelled by powerful forces. The City Council's near-unanimous approval of the Vornado project is a sign that elected officials are much more concerned about producing jobs than aesthetic concerns. "They were saying New York needs new buildings," says Carol Willis, director of the Skyscraper Museum. "Before that, I would've said that New Yorkers like their city just fine the way it looks right now."

At the same time, backers of these projects are pointing out that the city needs to modernize office space to preserve its competitive position against other global cities like London and Hong Kong. In a letter to shareholders this year Vornado Chairman Steve Roth said the 40 million square feet of office space along Park Avenue from Grand Central Terminal to 59th Street is, on average, 45 years old. He called on the city to allow for denser construction on the avenue to give builders an incentive to tear down old buildings and create new and larger towers.

As the economic doldrums wear on, the city's politicians seem to be coming around to that idea. "We need new, modern buildings to accommodate the new business model that's out there today all over the world," Mark Weprin, chairman of the City Council's subcommittee on zoning and franchises, said at a press conference before last week's council meeting.

Of course, most of the projects aren't going to move ahead until the economy improves, more financing becomes available and demand for commercial space and apartments picks up. Rents in top-tier Manhattan office buildings are still some 20% off their peak. "This is still at least a year or two from the right circumstances for a deal, let alone construction," Michael Knott, who tracks office landlords for real-estate research firm Green Street Advisors, said of the prospects for Vornado's 15 Penn Plaza. "Getting approvals now is just prudent planning, not a signal to ready the cranes."

Some projects that got going before the bust are moving forward. The Beekman Tower, Forest City Enterprises Inc.'s $800 million, Frank-Gehry-designed residential skyscraper has already reached its 867-foot height. It's close to the 792-foot Woolworth Building, another iconic tower that was once the tallest in the world and has since been dwarfed by modern skyscrapers.

At the World Trade Center site, two office towers are already rising and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey last week cemented a deal with developer Larry Silverstein that allows him to continue with building Tower 4 and promises as much as $600 million in public support for Tower 3.

Meantime, in Midtown, developer Gary Barnett is building a 1,000-foot residential tower on 57th Street thanks in part to financing from his Middle East partners.

Other projects are going to have to wait. Mr. Silverstein also plans a 912-foot-tall hotel and condo tower at 99 Church St., on the same block as the Woolworth Building, once financing becomes available. The city has also approved a 1,050-foot-tall tower next to the Museum of Modern Art to be built by Houston-based property giant Hines, but the company said the project's timing hasn't been determined.

Related Cos. and a subsidiary of a Canadian pension fund signed a $1 billion lease with the Metropolitan Transit Authority in May that will allow the partnership to develop a massive complex of residential and commercial buildings west of Penn Station that are planned to be as high as 850 feet. A Related spokeswoman said the developer hopes to start construction as early as 2012.

Before the recession hit, developers Moinian Group and Brookfield Properties Corp. also floated West Side towers, proposed to be more than 1,000 feet tall. "There's not much going on at the moment but it's definitely something we're excited about for the future," a Brookfield spokesman said of the company's project, at Ninth Avenue and 33rd Street. Moinian wants to build a 1,060-foot office and residential tower nearby, but construction won't start before 2013, a spokesman said.

Buildings such as those could have a greater impact on some well-known views of the Empire State Building than 15 Penn Plaza, City Council Speaker Christine Quinn said. "The idea that nothing is happening on the West Side that has any impact on the Empire State Building views that would allow that postcard to remain frozen in time is not the case," Ms. Quinn said at the press conference. "There are already buildings that the city has acted upon that will go up when the market bears that will change the views from…New Jersey, " she said at the press conference.

If developers do get around to constructing high-rises around the Empire State Building, it "becomes something like the Woolworth Building," said Thomas Hanrahan, dean of the School of Architecture at the Pratt Institute. "It wouldn't diminish or make the Empire State Building any less extraordinary than it already is."



of course there are many more skyscrapers on the way... as 56 leonard, 2WTC, 3WTC and others.

EDIT: title should be changed from Pro to App!
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