daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > Supertalls > Proposed Supertalls



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 17th, 2011, 07:20 AM   #821
RobertWalpole
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,607
Likes (Received): 2508

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arawooho View Post
I'm alright with moving the tower somewhere else. I think there are some empty/unused spaces down 7th ave I think they can use.
It's not moving anywhere. Under NYC zoning laws, a developer can't transfer air rights anywhere it wants. This site is zoned for over 2m sf, which is why this site will be developed.
RobertWalpole no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 17th, 2011, 07:29 AM   #822
JohnFlint1985
I love New York
 
JohnFlint1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York - New Jersey
Posts: 15,621
Likes (Received): 6558

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
It's not moving anywhere. Under NYC zoning laws, a developer can't transfer air rights anywhere it wants. This site is zoned for over 2m sf, which is why this site will be developed.
A lot can happen in the next few years. The place around Penn hotel is quickly becoming quite expensive, so I can see if someone will decided to make luxury apartments there instead of a skyscraper. Or another potential application for landmark designation can be forthcoming.
__________________
RIP QuantumX & Desertpunk

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” Thomas Jefferson
"We Shall Never Surrender." Winston Churchill
“Not all those who wander are lost.” J.R.R. Tolkien
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." Oscar Wilde
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
JohnFlint1985 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 07:39 AM   #823
RobertWalpole
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,607
Likes (Received): 2508

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFlint1985 View Post
A lot can happen in the next few years. The place around Penn hotel is quickly becoming quite expensive, so I can see if someone will decided to make luxury apartments there instead of a skyscraper. Or another potential application for landmark designation can be forthcoming.
That area is improving but it will never have luxury apartments like the area near Central Park. The only way that the 2m+ sf won't be developed is if it's landmarked. However, landmarking in NY is political, and Vornado has clout. No one will "rob" them of this site.
RobertWalpole no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 02:19 PM   #824
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

I dunno but maybe they could keep the hotel and construct a skyscraper next to it which will be thinner but taller than what is currently planned. Kinda a second 432 Park. This way they could both keep the hotel and gain their 2 million square feet of space
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 03:27 PM   #825
germantower
i ♥ NY
 
germantower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,451
Likes (Received): 1155

They cant do that. The block on which this hotel stands is shared by the hotel and the Manhattan Mall. There is no place for a tower, the hotel bldg and the Mall. Also, they cant use the hotel as the base ala Hearst tower, since the hotel penn is far too tall for a base. And the buildings to the south have simmilar architecture, but better maintained.

I dont thiunk there is any chance this hotel will be saved from a redeveloping, except a landmarking. NYC needs class A office space. The old office towers arent competitive, and i dont think that a developer will keep that building and sacrifise 2M FAR.

It's just a matter of time, until they can ensure profit.
__________________
more SHoP less BIG
germantower no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 06:46 PM   #826
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

Well, if there is no chance for it being saved then why said Vornado that he consideres renovating it?
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 07:14 PM   #827
germantower
i ♥ NY
 
germantower's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,451
Likes (Received): 1155

I am almost sure that it'll be just a minor renovation.
__________________
more SHoP less BIG
germantower no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 07:22 PM   #828
RobertWalpole
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,607
Likes (Received): 2508

Quote:
Originally Posted by germantower View Post
I am almost sure that it'll be just a minor renovation.
That's correct. Assuming that the world economy is quite strong in 3 years, this tower will rise then.
RobertWalpole no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 07:26 PM   #829
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

Well, I hope you folks are right
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 08:38 PM   #830
Hendycfc
Registered User
 
Hendycfc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Rotterdam/Glasgow
Posts: 1,390
Likes (Received): 422

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
That's correct. Assuming that the world economy is quite strong in 3 years, this tower will rise then.
Well i doubt that.
Hendycfc no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 10:17 PM   #831
Ajaypp
Trivandrum Lobbyist
 
Ajaypp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Trivandrum/Boston
Posts: 7,984
Likes (Received): 1131

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole
The Hudson Yards has substantial state and city subsidies, which enables Related to rent space at $70/sf. Moreover, Related has said repeatedly that it does not seek any profit on the office space at the Yards. It seeks to make money on the residential and retail segments. No other developer is looking to break even on its new office projects. Therefore, Related is at a massive advantage over everyone else and its space will be leased before any others.
Robert, I am not sure that Related is receiving much direct public subsidy, at least as far as I have understood in discussions with people associated with the project. Rather, I think that about $ 3 Billion is being invested in infrastructure improvements such as the 7 Line extension and so on. The true advantage would lie in its sheer scale and the comparatively low cost of acquisition of the air rights site, albeit offset to great extent by the additional cost of the deck.

That said, while Hudson Yards and the Manhattan West project will have a formidable position in the Midtown office market, we also need to understand that over 15 Million SF of large leases are expiring in the next 3-4 years in the Midtown office market alone. Add to that the fact that most large firms prefer to move to new space with better designs than remain in legacy space and that over 80% of Midtown's stock is pre-1980s in terms of age, and we it becomes evident that there will be a demand for trophy quality, state-of-the-art office space which can accommodate large blocks of space for large and medium tenants.

While the current economic turmoil may create a blip in the demand for new office space, I believe that we will not have to wait till the Yards and Manhattan West are fully filled up to see other projects start construction. I, for one, sure hope that things happen sooner because that's what I do for a living, as soon as I am done here at MIT.
Ajaypp no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 11:42 PM   #832
yankeesfan1000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,235
Likes (Received): 560

Well Related has said publicly that they don't want to make money on the office portion of the Hudson Yards, but will rely on retail and residential as their source of profits for the first stage. That's why they can offer rents so much lower, or at least part of the reason.

And to those of you not familiar with NY or this hotel, it's awful. These renovations I'm sure are just merely bringing it up to par.
yankeesfan1000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 17th, 2011, 11:58 PM   #833
Ajaypp
Trivandrum Lobbyist
 
Ajaypp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Trivandrum/Boston
Posts: 7,984
Likes (Received): 1131

Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000
Well Related has said publicly that they don't want to make money on the office portion of the Hudson Yards, but will rely on retail and residential as their source of profits for the first stage. That's why they can offer rents so much lower, or at least part of the reason.

And to those of you not familiar with NY or this hotel, it's awful. These renovations I'm sure are just merely bringing it up to par.
Yeap, Related can cross-subsidize the office using the residential space which is their forte. That said, the market could accommodate more office projects.
Ajaypp no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2011, 06:39 PM   #834
RobertWalpole
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,607
Likes (Received): 2508

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajaypp View Post
Robert, I am not sure that Related is receiving much direct public subsidy, at least as far as I have understood in discussions with people associated with the project. Rather, I think that about $ 3 Billion is being invested in infrastructure improvements such as the 7 Line extension and so on. The true advantage would lie in its sheer scale and the comparatively low cost of acquisition of the air rights site, albeit offset to great extent by the additional cost of the deck.

That said, while Hudson Yards and the Manhattan West project will have a formidable position in the Midtown office market, we also need to understand that over 15 Million SF of large leases are expiring in the next 3-4 years in the Midtown office market alone. Add to that the fact that most large firms prefer to move to new space with better designs than remain in legacy space and that over 80% of Midtown's stock is pre-1980s in terms of age, and we it becomes evident that there will be a demand for trophy quality, state-of-the-art office space which can accommodate large blocks of space for large and medium tenants.

While the current economic turmoil may create a blip in the demand for new office space, I believe that we will not have to wait till the Yards and Manhattan West are fully filled up to see other projects start construction. I, for one, sure hope that things happen sooner because that's what I do for a living, as soon as I am done here at MIT.
Related is receiving massive tax breaks. Other developers in the Yards will too. See below, as an example. (15 Penn obviously is east of the Yards.)

http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/HudsonYa...yTaxBreaks.pdf

Most significantly, Related has said repeatedly that it seeks to break even on the office space. Every other development looks to make money on the office towers, and therefore, can't offer discounted space like Related can.
RobertWalpole no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2011, 07:13 PM   #835
Jay
Registered User
 
Jay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: California to Barcelona
Posts: 4,054
Likes (Received): 1863

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
That's correct. Assuming that the world economy is quite strong in 3 years, this tower will rise then.
If by 3 you mean 30, then yea maybe.
Jay no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2011, 11:19 PM   #836
Ajaypp
Trivandrum Lobbyist
 
Ajaypp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Trivandrum/Boston
Posts: 7,984
Likes (Received): 1131

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole

Related is receiving massive tax breaks. Other developers in the Yards will too. See below, as an example. (15 Penn obviously is east of the Yards.)

http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/HudsonYa...yTaxBreaks.pdf

Most significantly, Related has said repeatedly that it seeks to break even on the office space. Every other development looks to make money on the office towers, and therefore, can't offer discounted space like Related can.
The Payment In Lieu of Tax or PILOT structure is a common form of incentive to promote selective development or redevelopment for the sake of economic growth. It's pretty common in New York and I have seen it here in Cambridge in the case of MIT's commercial assets. PILOTs help to remove the revenue uncertainty for the City and the cost uncertainty for the developer. Of course, there are two schools of thought as to whether it is better or worse but it seems to work well in helping to promote real estate development thus far.

The point is that the same incentives seem to apply to other West Side projects such as Manhattan West. The real advantage for Hudson Yards seems to be in its sheer scale and its ability to cross-subsidize office space through residential development. That said, there should be sufficient scope for other office projects to come up in the same time frame as the Yards.
Ajaypp no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2011, 05:43 AM   #837
JohnFlint1985
I love New York
 
JohnFlint1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York - New Jersey
Posts: 15,621
Likes (Received): 6558

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
That area is improving but it will never have luxury apartments like the area near Central Park. The only way that the 2m+ sf won't be developed is if it's landmarked. However, landmarking in NY is political, and Vornado has clout. No one will "rob" them of this site.
We never know about this area. With all the construction boom just one block away it very well can become a new magnet for rich and shameless. new subway line, possible new train station and etc. It has all the potential to become another rich area. I'd love to see the hotel being saved or maybe a tower rising above it.

To be honest - this glass tower is so ugly that I will not shed any tears if it is not built there. And I am certalinly will try to participate in landmark preservation - maybe there is a chance. After all this is 1911 hotel by McKim, Mead & White - famous NYC architectural firm.
__________________
RIP QuantumX & Desertpunk

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” Thomas Jefferson
"We Shall Never Surrender." Winston Churchill
“Not all those who wander are lost.” J.R.R. Tolkien
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." Oscar Wilde
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
JohnFlint1985 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2011, 01:57 PM   #838
RobertWalpole
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,607
Likes (Received): 2508

I've repeatedly said that I'd love to see the Hotel Penn landmarked, but it won't happen. Steve Roth of Vornado isa very powerful. A site with 2.5m sf of air rights is extremely valuable.
RobertWalpole no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2011, 07:53 PM   #839
JohnFlint1985
I love New York
 
JohnFlint1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New York - New Jersey
Posts: 15,621
Likes (Received): 6558

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
I've repeatedly said that I'd love to see the Hotel Penn landmarked, but it won't happen. Steve Roth of Vornado isa very powerful. A site with 2.5m sf of air rights is extremely valuable.
I hear you. But let's try. OK?
__________________
RIP QuantumX & Desertpunk

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” Thomas Jefferson
"We Shall Never Surrender." Winston Churchill
“Not all those who wander are lost.” J.R.R. Tolkien
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." Oscar Wilde
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
JohnFlint1985 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2011, 07:56 PM   #840
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

LOL, I smell NIMBYies in this thread
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
15 penn plaza, hotel pennsylvania, madison square garden, new york, new york project, penn station, vornado

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu