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Old April 26th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #881
erbse
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The grand ballroom of Hotel Pennsylvania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hp_ballroom_edit.jpg

The Palm Room

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hp_palm_room_edit.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pa...etail_edit.jpg



How could anyone be as foolish and blind to deny the quality, value and importance of beacons like the Penn Hotel?
NYC finally needs to raise awareness for ALL its heritage!

We've already seen The Drake disappearing, gems such as The Singer Building, Penn Station (just around the corner) or the CityInvest! Don't let such crimes happen again and again!

You're losing so much while gaining so little. There are other places for great new modern towers to rise.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #882
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Just below 14th St there are 18 landmarked neighborhoods including Soho, meaning at least a handful of full city blocks that can not be altered in any way period. In addition, there are hundreds of individually landmarked buildings, again all just below 14th St.

Throughout Manhattan alone, there are thousands and thousands of landmarked buildings including the Chrysler and Woolworth, and dozens and dozens of acres landmarked neighborhoods including places like the West Village which are some of the most expensive neighborhoods in the country. NY does an incredible job of preserving it's architectural past.

Ever seen this building in person or stayed there? Because trust me, in person this building is nothing special. If it were it'd be landmarked or they would be some movement to get it landmarked, which there isn't. Plus, those pictures you keep posting are from 1919 when the building was new. There's no way the interiors look that good anymore.

At the end of the day, this building was approved by the City Council by a margin of 47-1 for a reason.

Also, this same discussion pops up every few pages...
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Old April 26th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #883
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That's because this discussion isn't settled in any way.


If NYC did a great job handling its heritage, buildings like The Drake or Penn Hotel wouldn't disappear. Period.

There are still more than enough post-war eyesores, empty lots, parking decks and the likes that could be replaced, instead of refined classic historical buildings.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #884
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If it's not all that good in person didn't they do a bad job in preserving it's original appearance? Landmarked buildings in Amsterdam
are being restored all the time, i can't recal anyone ever complaining about the lack of highrises overthere...

"this building was approved by the City Council by a margin of 47-1 for a reason."

yes -> $

Last edited by seb.nl; April 27th, 2012 at 08:37 AM.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 05:47 PM   #885
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But erbse those photos you posted of the interior are from 1919 when the hotel opened. This is what lobby looks like today, looks like a POS you'd find in Reno...

Edit: Also, the discussion is settled. This building isn't landmarked, the tower was approved 47-1. This buildings days are numbered.





image hosted on flickr

Source.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 05:48 PM   #886
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erbse - Greatest example - sites around Hudson yards.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #887
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^ Indeed. Loads and loads of space. If it's all about the money in NYC, they could easily get way less expensive lots there, without the need to demolish something (which isn't ecologically and economically feasible in many cases, anyway).

Quote:
But erbse those photos you posted of the interior are from 1919 when the hotel opened. This is what lobby looks like today, looks like a POS you'd find in Reno...

Edit: Also, the discussion is settled. This building isn't landmarked, the tower was approved 47-1. This buildings days are numbered.
And that means the original interiors couldn't be restored?
Things like that are done in Europe all the time. You'd be considered mentally ill to tear down a historical building in a European heritage old town. The same should go for Manhattan. All the way!

This buildings days are only numbered when they're starting to demolish it.


And btw: There isn't just black & white. Demolition or preservation. Both can be combined and there are loads and loads of examples even throughout NYC.

Hearst Tower should be well known to all of you.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #888
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The Hudson Yards is not comparable to this site at all. This is directly across the street from the busiest rail station in North America, which is a large reason why the site is so valuable. The Hudson Yards is still a neighborhood full of parking lots, strip clubs, and construction sites.

It could obviously be restored, but you'd end up having to gut the building because the lobby needs to replaced, as do the rooms, and to pay for that you're going to have to add amenities and make it up scale. It's a huge pain and incredibly expensive to do to a building that has 2M square feet of developable air rights, which will be developed in the next decade anyway. Those air rights are what makes this buildings days absolutely numbered. 2M SF of air rights right across the street from Penn Station, and a max of 10 mins from Grand Central is worth millions and millions. This will be built. Period.

I know about the Hearst Tower. But the base was landmarked, this isn't. If this was worth saving in any capacity, it would be landmarked. If you've got a problem with it, take it up with the Landmark Preservation Commission.

And not to sound arrogant, but the comparison between Manhattan and a European heritage old town is absurd, and I shouldn't even have to get in to why.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 06:46 PM   #889
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You are wrong. In Europe we got a lot of XIX and early XX-century landmarks and cities with buildings from that peroid. They are usually considered as a little bit less valuable than urban forms from times before industrialization, but still preserved and protected. Look at Madrid or Barcelona for example.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
^ Indeed. Loads and loads of space. If it's all about the money in NYC, they could easily get way less expensive lots there, without the need to demolish something (which isn't ecologically and economically feasible in many cases, anyway).


And that means the original interiors couldn't be restored?
Things like that are done in Europe all the time. You'd be considered mentally ill to tear down a historical building in a European heritage old town. The same should go for Manhattan. All the way!

This buildings days are only numbered when they're starting to demolish it.


And btw: There isn't just black & white. Demolition or preservation. Both can be combined and there are loads and loads of examples even throughout NYC.

Hearst Tower should be well known to all of you.
Something new and better can always be built in an old building's place when the building is like this one.

This hotel is inconsequential, the city already has many landmark buildings in the same style that blow it of the water.

We can't just save every old building, there would never be any growth. Manhattan is an island, they can't just keep expanding the borders of the town and building out so that nothing old gets replaced.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 08:25 PM   #891
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Thank you. i completly agree.

I'll through this into the topic that maybe others can incorperate.
Let's compare the Penn Hotel with another building just 10 blocks away. Hotel Chelsea.
image hosted on flickr

In person, hotel penn looks run down and old. Chelsea hotel looks marvelous from the outside and in the lobby. If Penn hotel is as great and historic as some say, there should have been a better effort to actually preserve it instead of letting it pretty much rot in the years.
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Old April 26th, 2012, 09:32 PM   #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexter2 View Post
You are wrong. In Europe we got a lot of XIX and early XX-century landmarks and cities with buildings from that peroid. They are usually considered as a little bit less valuable than urban forms from times before industrialization, but still preserved and protected. Look at Madrid or Barcelona for example.
Right and how big are those projects in Madrid or Barcelona? Because it sounds like you're proposing somehow retaining the 22 stories of facade here, while simultaneously demolishing that same buildings foundation, and then building a new foundation sufficient for a 1200 foot office building, again all around the 22 stories of facade of the Hotel Penn, and then building a modern 21st century office building around the 22 stories of facade... The office building will be built, so the hotel's gotta go.

Nice to have some sense PDC and Ara, and I agree the Hotel Chelsea is way more interesting than this.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 07:51 AM   #893
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Love this building, NYC is on the rise ! It also fits perfectly in midtown
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Old April 27th, 2012, 10:27 AM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000;
...the comparison between Manhattan and a European heritage old town is absurd, and I shouldn't even have to get in to why.
While I regard you as one of the best forum members, I respectfully disagree with this point. The vast majority of structures in any European city are from the 1800s and early 1900s and therefore, are no older than what finds in Manhattan. Photos of Midtown from the early 1900s show that the city looked a lot like London. However, NY, despite its long (by American standards) 400 year history, has no respect for the past. In this regard, it differs from Europe.

I think that 15 Penn is a great tower, and it clearly will rise at some point. However, I would prefer to see the Hotel Penn saved. I agree that it's currently a dilapidated flea bad, but its grandeur can be restored. That being said, I acknowledge that this will not happen.



Last edited by RobertWalpole; April 27th, 2012 at 10:33 AM.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 12:37 PM   #895
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Exactly, it always strikes me how Americans underestimate their architectural heritage.
It is indeed so that in America they made some bad choices the last 50 years with city centre and building preservation.
If you look at almost every arial photo of an American city, you can see big buildings and skyscrapers right in the centre of them. While in Europe, that would be impossible to imagine.
Don't forget that before WOII almost all American cities looked a lot like European ones.
But because of money and short term thinking the old cities of the US are almost completely gone.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 03:10 PM   #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Please also have a look beyond the surface of Pennsylvania Hotel!

The historical lobby

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hp_lobby_old_edit.jpg
The contemporary lobby:


http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/med...lvania-new.jpg


The hotel is a shadow of its former self. If the original lobby, at the very least, still existed, I'd fully support its preservation. At this point I'm on the fence, but I'm still rooting for 15 Penn. Its presence would finally give the Penn Station the focal point it deserves, as the current Penn Station is sorely lacking in that department. Think of how the Grand Central Terminal single-handedly jumpstarted the creation of Midtown's CBD, which later became the largest in the world. Penn Station is similarly scaled in terms of carrying capacity. It can support very high commercial density on the surrounding blocks. If you want to big build, you must do it next to major public transport hubs, or else a 15-story garage for all the commuters would be needed. This location is perfect. This development would, however, come at the cost of a historic hotel that can be brought back to its old glory through a very expensive and lengthy restoration. It's not just some "paint and cleaning" like you said earlier, it would require a massive overhaul of the entire building and its infrastructures.




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Old April 27th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
While I regard you as one of the best forum members, I respectfully disagree with this point. The vast majority of structures in any European city are from the 1800s and early 1900s and therefore, are no older than what finds in Manhattan. Photos of Midtown from the early 1900s show that the city looked a lot like London. However, NY, despite its long (by American standards) 400 year history, has no respect for the past. In this regard, it differs from Europe.

I think that 15 Penn is a great tower, and it clearly will rise at some point. However, I would prefer to see the Hotel Penn saved. I agree that it's currently a dilapidated flea bad, but its grandeur can be restored. That being said, I acknowledge that this will not happen...
Ha, thanks. The point I was trying to make about the comparison was really that this is Midtown Manhattan, and comparing the largest business district in the world, and one of the densest places on earth, to a European town is never going to be a good comparison, especially when it comes to conservation. If this building were in Chelsea, or basically anywhere but Midtown it would have a much better chance of being saved, but it isn't. And I agree that in a perfect world this would be saved, and 15 Penn would be built on the corner of 34th and 7th, either on the SE or SW corner. Hope that clears up the point I was trying to make.

Those are great photos by the way. Photos of NY from that era are just incredible. They give Paris and London a run for their money.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #898
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The argument that European cities have 'so much more history' than American ones also irks me. London may have been founded by the Romans, but the current city is merely the latest incarnation of many--London exemplifies what has occurred in the vast majority of European cities, and the vast majority of its building stock was built after 1800-1850. Before this time, great fires were extremely common (and even in the U.S., SFO burned down after the earthquake in 1906). WWII was Europe's equivalent of 'new urbanism,' as vast areas of cities were destroyed in bombings (London had the blitz, almost all German cities were gutted...).

There are few exceptions to this (mainly Spanish and Italian cities... Seville, etc), but really, the core of many American and European cities have buildings that were built at roughly the same times. It just happens that suburban development exploded in the U.S. after WWII on a completely absurd scale, which is why European cities are mostly much more walkable/attractive.
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Old April 27th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
While I regard you as one of the best forum members, I respectfully disagree with this point. The vast majority of structures in any European city are from the 1800s and early 1900s and therefore, are no older than what finds in Manhattan. Photos of Midtown from the early 1900s show that the city looked a lot like London. However, NY, despite its long (by American standards) 400 year history, has no respect for the past. In this regard, it differs from Europe.

I think that 15 Penn is a great tower, and it clearly will rise at some point. However, I would prefer to see the Hotel Penn saved. I agree that it's currently a dilapidated flea bad, but its grandeur can be restored. That being said, I acknowledge that this will not happen.


Although I love this building, I agree. We need to respect our history, and remember our past. One of the main reasons i prefer New York and Chicago to all the Asian cities with futuristic architecture, is the history. Art deco buildings are a must for a great skyline for me. It enables you to look at historic buildings and remember your past, or what people before you saw. Another thing, is that our past is a key to our future, it allows us to see where we had success, and where we had failure.

I am okay with this building going up, but I hope they don't continue tearing down old buildings.
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Old April 28th, 2012, 03:16 PM   #900
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I am okay with this building going up, but I hope they don't continue tearing down old buildings.
But they will. Someone finally needs to stop this madness that is eroding Manhattan!

(Again: Of course the hotel needs a major revitalization. No one doubts that. There'd def. be investors if it were sold thoughtfully.)

This crap is occupying the two sites just next to Pennsylvania Hotel (to the left and righthand). Flat buildings without any value. In this area, they almost seem like empty lots.

They're even of comparable size as the 15 Penn Plaza site, at least a big boy phallus tower would have enough space.

Despite the fact that a demolition of such a huge building like the Penn Hotel is neither ecologically nor economically feasible in the first place, a lot more density could be added to the area by developing these almost empty sites. Instead of tearing a huge historical hotel down.

It seems, NYC doesn't really consider things like cityscape or urban psychology. Not even its grand past and historical value that is globally unique.
It's not like the city is becoming more beautiful this way. Rather dull, faceless and inhuman.
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