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Old May 15th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #981
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That's quite a sweeping statement that isn't backed by sources. In the examples I know that's more the opposite of a case (except places like Detroit...).

I just think the dense urban mix of Manhattan is pretty much perfect, only disturbed by ugly brutalist monstrosities. There's absolutely no need to tear down valuable historical buildings and to replace them with new brutalist monstrosities (432 Park and the likes). Add blocking main views towards landmarks and you have yet another pejoration of classical NYC.

15 Penn Plaza would be perfect elsewhere.
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Old May 15th, 2012, 11:08 PM   #982
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delete

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Old May 15th, 2012, 11:14 PM   #983
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Huh, two same posts.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 12:40 AM   #984
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hahah yeah, I read that and thought "deja vu" then I read your post.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 03:31 AM   #985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
HardBall: Getting into comparisons of those single landmarks was pretty much pointless.
I agree, but you were the one who offered the first comparison, not me.

Quote:
You're right about the builder's intention. Of course they didn't really intend to have ESB & Chrysler standing "alone" in the urban jungle of Manhattan forever.

But on another note... Eiffel Tower was intended to be torn down after World Expo. Things use to change.
Sure things have changed since these structures were first designed; and certain buildings of each era become standard bearers of that generation. But things changes still today, and new and more efficient constructions will gradually displace the old and outdated designed. Not saying that the 20s/30s art deco should all disappear, but to hold an area of many city blocks of air space open, in one of the most valuable areas on the planet in terms of commercial real-estate, just to accommodate a single 80 yr old build's "stature" and "reputation" seems a bit extreme, to say the least.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 05:07 AM   #986
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Huh, two same posts.
was it mine? sorry, I posted with my phone, it's probably being stupid.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 05:17 AM   #987
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Quote:
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15 Penn Plaza would be perfect elsewhere.
erbse without going into specifics (I did this before) I just want to say that I support your point of view.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 05:31 AM   #988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
That's quite a sweeping statement that isn't backed by sources. In the examples I know that's more the opposite of a case (except places like Detroit...).

I just think the dense urban mix of Manhattan is pretty much perfect, only disturbed by ugly brutalist monstrosities. There's absolutely no need to tear down valuable historical buildings and to replace them with new brutalist monstrosities (432 Park and the likes). Add blocking main views towards landmarks and you have yet another pejoration of classical NYC.

15 Penn Plaza would be perfect elsewhere.
Even in Detroit that is being reversed
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Old May 16th, 2012, 05:36 AM   #989
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erbse without going into specifics (I did this before) I just want to say that I support your point of view.
+1 Erbse really hit the nail on the head
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Old May 16th, 2012, 07:18 AM   #990
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NYC/Manhattan can grow elsewhere, it doesn't have to tear down valuable historical buildings and viewing axes.

Why not tear down some of those multiple horrible 50s/60s/70s/80s eyesores? There are enough of them. Get off true historical ground!

They've already destroyed Penn Station, Singer Building, City Insurance, the Drake Hotel and many more... And other gems will follow if it continues this way. Again: There should be limits to density. (Parts of Manhattan are way too crowded already, look at places like Sao Paulo, Hongkong, Tokyo or Shanghai where extreme density leads to...)
Because those ugly buildings aren't on this plot.

Even then, there is *nothing* special about this wretched hotel.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HardBall View Post
I agree, but you were the one who offered the first comparison, not me.



Sure things have changed since these structures were first designed; and certain buildings of each era become standard bearers of that generation. But things changes still today, and new and more efficient constructions will gradually displace the old and outdated designed. Not saying that the 20s/30s art deco should all disappear, but to hold an area of many city blocks of air space open, in one of the most valuable areas on the planet in terms of commercial real-estate, just to accommodate a single 80 yr old build's "stature" and "reputation" seems a bit extreme, to say the least.
I 1000% agree with you. ESB is amazing, but it is about time it gets some competition in the neighborhood
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Old May 16th, 2012, 09:37 PM   #992
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432 Park is most definitely not Brutalist--most of the structure is glass, and it certainly isn't dominating. It's extremely thin. Brutalism is about horrifying/imposing structures with few windows that completely dominate their surroundings. 432 Park will certainly be tall, but I don't think it will dominate in a way characteristic of Brutalism.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #993
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It's not brutalist. It's minimalist.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 10:06 PM   #994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babybackribs2314 View Post
432 Park is most definitely not Brutalist--most of the structure is glass, and it certainly isn't dominating. It's extremely thin. Brutalism is about horrifying/imposing structures with few windows that completely dominate their surroundings. 432 Park will certainly be tall, but I don't think it will dominate in a way characteristic of Brutalism.
That's not brutalism. Brutalism is about using simple, boxy functional shapes. Even a lowrise with skyscrapers arround it can be a brutalist building if it's boxy and lacks fancy decorations
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Old May 16th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #995
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babybackribs2314: That's the first time I hear something like that and never read that in any fundamental approach on architecture of that time.

Essentially brutalism is about simple geometrical language and exposed structure (such as exposed concrete). 432Park is following the mainstream school of the 60s there. But that doesn't really belong here.
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Old May 16th, 2012, 11:10 PM   #996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
That's not brutalism. Brutalism is about using simple, boxy functional shapes. Even a lowrise with skyscrapers arround it can be a brutalist building if it's boxy and lacks fancy decorations
very wrong
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Old May 16th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #997
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Examples are typically very linear, fortresslike and blockish
blockish
blockish
blockish
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Old May 16th, 2012, 11:24 PM   #998
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i'm just going to leave it at and call it a functionalist design... nothing fancy it's just there to serve a purpose.

Last edited by Hudson11; May 16th, 2012 at 11:40 PM.
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Old May 17th, 2012, 01:23 AM   #999
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That's pretty much it. So whatever we call it... It's rather plain, simple, functionalist... combined with strange proportions. Makes a strange building all in all.


Back to 15 Penn Plaza!
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Old May 18th, 2012, 02:09 AM   #1000
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I hate to see the destruction of any great, old structure. Bear in mind,however, that the overwhelming majority of Manhattan and Brooklyn consists of pre-war structures.
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