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Old August 7th, 2014, 08:31 PM   #1141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HardBall View Post
The design of that hotel has always left much wanting, and it's not in good shape at all and needs massive rennovation to bring up to standard. If the new design for the office tower can be aesthetic and iconic, then it's time for the hotel to go into the sunset.
The design is classic Pelli Clarke Pelli and I would love to see it in NYC.

There are many blocks near 15 PP that are much more ripe for redevelopment than the hotel, though. Really, all of them.

In an ideal world, both this would be built and the hotel renovated.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 10:20 PM   #1142
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If I am a prospective anchor tenant...

Right now, I would pick 15 Penn over Manhattan West location because it is in a better location.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 10:26 PM   #1143
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I don't understand the glorification of the hotel, it's a P.O.S. compared to most buildings in NY from that time.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 10:33 PM   #1144
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That hotel is only good for quickies!!! Don't ask!! Lol. Actually I took my wife then Girl friend there a long time ago and we where ambushed by a freak in the hall way flashing us in a black trench coat. #truestory

Seriously that place is prolly littered with bed bugs and needs to be razed.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 10:55 PM   #1145
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Here's a little something I found.
http://www.radiiinc.com/15-penn-plaza/





I just realized that there is actually 2 diff versions of this tower with the diff base! Anyone know which one is the latest version?

I pref the top.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 12:02 AM   #1146
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Originally Posted by onewtclover View Post
I heard way before that 15 Penn Plaza would block views of the ESB from the west. What happened with that issue?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/ny.../24empire.html

AFAIK New York doesn't have protected sightlines like London or Paris. It should, though, especially with the Empire State.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 01:39 AM   #1147
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Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
I just realized that there is actually 2 diff versions of this tower with the diff base! Anyone know which one is the latest version?
IIRC, Vornado was gauging interest in two variants at the same time: one with an anchor tenant and one without. The two bases might be these two variants of the same tower.

Quote:
I pref the top.
Agreed. But if that long side is facing the avenue, then positioning the tower in the middle of the block will looker nicer.

Thanks for sharing that anecdote about the hotel!
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Old August 8th, 2014, 07:00 PM   #1148
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Originally Posted by SomeKindOfBug View Post
AFAIK New York doesn't have protected sightlines like London or Paris. It should, though, especially with the Empire State.
Of course it shouldn't have protected sightlines. That's ridiculous over-regulation. London barely has tall buildings, other than the Shard, and Paris has no tall buildings at all in the city limits (the area governed by protected sightlines). That's exactly the way to continue to exacerbate affordability issues in NYC and a big part of why London and Paris are among the most expensive cities in the world--over-regulation of building.

In any case, Hudson Yards and Manhattan West will have already blocked the ESB from the direct western view anyway.
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Old August 8th, 2014, 07:22 PM   #1149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillBuild View Post
IIRC, Vornado was gauging interest in two variants at the same time: one with an anchor tenant and one without. The two bases might be these two variants of the same tower.
Interesting and thanks for the info on the different design. Now thinking about it the tower in the middle could be nice as well.

I did a little search and found some more I’d like to share to bring everyone up to speed in chronological order.


http://www.theouthousers.com/forum/t...er-t48635.html


(Feb 2010) 15 Penn Environmental Impact Final Scope:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/pdf/env_...inal_scope.pdf

(Aug 2010) City Council Approves New Midtown Skyscraper
http://www.ny1.com/content/news/1243...own-skyscraper

Quote:
The City Council approved plans for a new skyscraper across from Pennsylvania Station by a 47-1 vote Wednesday, after it passed two subcommittees earlier in the morning.

The council's subcommittees on Zoning and Franchises and Land Use also approved the proposal for the development of 15 Penn Plaza, which would occupy the current site of the Hotel Pennsylvania.


(Dec 2013) Interview with the Architect: Rafael Pelli – New York Yimby
http://newyorkyimby.com/2013/12/inte...ael-pelli.html

Quote:
15 Penn Plaza is another huge project you’ve done in New York City; what were your thoughts behind that building, the evolution of the design… and when will it be built? Do you think it will be built in its current form?

I can’t say. I never try to predict the future; large building projects in the city always go through a lot of evolution, and they change over time, and even the same architect ten years later will look at it with a different eye, and see different possibilities. 15 Penn was a concept design which we did for the zoning approval.

So it wasn’t even a real proposal?
Well, it’s not a complete design; there’s a lot remaining to fully design that building. The final one that was approved was set close to Seventh Avenue, and it was a very developed concept from an urban standpoint, in terms of city planning. They wanted to know how the height and mass would interact with the city, what the set-backs would be like, and how it would affect the site. Really, how it affects the city from the outside — but as a worked-out building on the inside, there’s a lot to be determined, and that’s going to depend on the tenant. If this ends up being for a financial institution, it’ll be one kind of building; if it’s for a big software company, it’ll be another kind of building. And it’s going to evolve; it will be refined further depending on tenancy, and it’s hard to determine when the market will necessitate it being built.

The 2020′s!
Could be! Buildings get built, but they take time, and then they respond to the conditions of that time. I’m sure it’ll evolve in ways I can’t fully anticipate right now, but what we have today is just an elegant concept. I think it would be a beautiful skyline presence as a tapered form, but in a more contemporary way. But there’s still a lot of work to do.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 04:05 AM   #1150
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"plans for an immense hotel being drawn" in 1909

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
I don't understand the glorification of the hotel, it's a P.O.S. compared to most buildings in NY from that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
That hotel is only good for quickies!!! Don't ask!! Lol. Actually I took my wife then Girl friend there a long time ago and we where ambushed by a freak in the hall way flashing us in a black trench coat. #truestory

Seriously that place is prolly littered with bed bugs and needs to be razed.
The following an excerpt from the Dave Barry article on his family's stay at the Hotel Shpennsylvania:

Quote:
We enjoyed a restful night until about 1 a.m., when the couple next door returned to their room. This couple was really hitting it off, if you know what I mean. I did not realize that it was physically possible for humans to hit it off that many times in one night. We could hear them clearly, because compressed grime does not block sound well, and they were hitting it off with intensity, passion, and what sounded like at least four head of cattle.

During those brief periods when the couple was resting, smoking cigarettes, watering the livestock, etc., we would listen to the people in the room on the other side, who apparently were in town for the International Convention of Loud Talkers With Insomnia. They were having a fine time, the kind of time when everything is so hilarious that everybody must repeat it at least four times.

A distinct aroma drifting through the grime made us wonder if they were using shmarijuana, but of course that would be illegal, even in New York. Whatever it was, it quieted them down for brief periods, during which the couple on the other side would rouse the steers again. Before we knew it, it was dawn.
- Dave Barry/Miami Herald
http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/693415/posts

I had to stay overnight in the Hotel Pennsylvania in the early 1980s due to a snowstorm sweeping up the Atlantic coast. The hotel was a dump.

The render below is from a slightly older, pre-Vornado, plan for the site. The planned building is on right (east) side of 7th Ave:

Library of Congress
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Last edited by solgoldberg; August 9th, 2014 at 10:30 PM.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 04:32 AM   #1151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertical_Gotham View Post
Here's a little something I found.
http://www.radiiinc.com/15-penn-plaza/





I just realized that there is actually 2 diff versions of this tower with the diff base! Anyone know which one is the latest version?

I pref the top.
The top one is the single tenant tower configuration which tops out at 1,190ft.

The second is the multi tenant configuration and it tops out at 1,216ft.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 07:14 AM   #1152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillBuild View Post
The design is classic Pelli Clarke Pelli and I would love to see it in NYC.

There are many blocks near 15 PP that are much more ripe for redevelopment than the hotel, though. Really, all of them.

In an ideal world, both this would be built and the hotel renovated.
Sure, but the location wrt penn station and the midway between ESB & Hudson yards. If both could be done, then sure, but that isn't exactly financially smart.

The design is very stale, and quite common place for buildings of similar size. There isn't really anything unique about it.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 07:22 AM   #1153
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Originally Posted by LastConformist View Post
Of course it shouldn't have protected sightlines. That's ridiculous over-regulation. London barely has tall buildings, other than the Shard, and Paris has no tall buildings at all in the city limits (the area governed by protected sightlines). That's exactly the way to continue to exacerbate affordability issues in NYC and a big part of why London and Paris are among the most expensive cities in the world--over-regulation of building.

In any case, Hudson Yards and Manhattan West will have already blocked the ESB from the direct western view anyway.
This.


And Paris sure did a fantastic job protecting views of Tour Montparnasse!
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Old August 9th, 2014, 07:38 AM   #1154
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Originally Posted by SomeKindOfBug View Post
AFAIK New York doesn't have protected sightlines like London or Paris. It should, though, especially with the Empire State.
We live in the US, which has different set of ideals and ethos than ancient European city centers. We don't need to blindly emulate others and try to be like things that we are not. NYC is built on the motto of bigger, bolder, and more ambitious, not mindless protection of millenia old monuments and urban layouts (like we have any to begin with).
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Old August 9th, 2014, 01:41 PM   #1155
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why says the thread title "On Hold" btw. ?
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Old August 9th, 2014, 07:45 PM   #1156
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Originally Posted by desertpunk View Post
This.


And Paris sure did a fantastic job protecting views of Tour Montparnasse!
It's a pity NYC is so constrained in terms of space. If there were more room, the old early 20th century manhattan that had buildings reminiscent of European planned cities of the 17th/18th century could have been maintined without being overrun by poorly designed post-war scrapers and art-deco plain designs. Photos of early manhattan in the late 1800's are far more beautiful than the manhattan we see today. The need for office space and tall towers could have been delegated to specific delimited zones if the city had been planned properly to take historic preservation and aesthetic concerns in to account. However, efficiency won the day which is understandable and the lack of space combined with the cost of building very tall towers. Thus we saw the infestation of the modernist and art-deco movement that erradicated so many beautiful structures and totally transformed the face of central NYC.

The ideal city for me is one that has a large swath of historical low-rise structures with several small constrained zones of supertalls in strategic locations combined with more modern zones. Nothing beats the amazing nature of a large swath of contiguous historical ornate structures with modern buildings kept to other newer areas. Canyon are over rated anyway. Clusters are far more impressive when you have historic city centers. That is why the ruination of early 19/20th century NY is a crime because it was beautiful and a rival to London's mayfair or picadilly areas.

The idea of having sight lines is over for NYC, it never was actually to begin with. Thank God for London and Paris are smart enough to know they must keep their heritage. These cities that know that they must not ruin their old centers with scrapers like NYC did but instead delegate them to certain areas that do not impinge upon the old beauties. Even the NYC art-deco movement ruined beautiful old ornate buildings with far more crude designs, barring a few standouts that we all know and love today.

So, no to sight lines to protect the ESB, it is a futile activity. Yes to other cities preserving what NY threw away.

Last edited by City-of-Platinum; August 9th, 2014 at 08:04 PM.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #1157
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That itself sounds too European for the US. What makes NYC so great and vibrant in person is the mix of architectural styles that are all fully integrated with each other. Segregated architectural districts don't fit NYC the way they fit older European cities.
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Old August 9th, 2014, 11:05 PM   #1158
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Originally Posted by City-of-Platinum View Post
It's a pity NYC is so constrained in terms of space. If there were more room, the old early 20th century manhattan that had buildings reminiscent of European planned cities of the 17th/18th century could have been maintined without being overrun by poorly designed post-war scrapers and art-deco plain designs. Photos of early manhattan in the late 1800's are far more beautiful than the manhattan we see today. The need for office space and tall towers could have been delegated to specific delimited zones if the city had been planned properly to take historic preservation and aesthetic concerns in to account. However, efficiency won the day which is understandable and the lack of space combined with the cost of building very tall towers. Thus we saw the infestation of the modernist and art-deco movement that erradicated so many beautiful structures and totally transformed the face of central NYC.

The ideal city for me is one that has a large swath of historical low-rise structures with several small constrained zones of supertalls in strategic locations combined with more modern zones. Nothing beats the amazing nature of a large swath of contiguous historical ornate structures with modern buildings kept to other newer areas. Canyon are over rated anyway. Clusters are far more impressive when you have historic city centers. That is why the ruination of early 19/20th century NY is a crime because it was beautiful and a rival to London's mayfair or picadilly areas.
If your concern is Mayfair or Picadilly, NYC has plenty of areas that are virtually indistinguishable. Try Soho or Carnegie Hill. And London certainly did ruin a lot of its city center without building tall buildings (though not necessarily voluntarily--most of the ruination is from the Blitz). Also, this is presentist bias. Everything you cite as "historical" in London or Paris is actually quite recent by the antiquity of either city--19th or 20th century. Paris in particular has virtually no buildings pre-dating the French Revolution other than a handful of landmarks. Somehow "preserving heritage" didn't matter so much in the 19th century when what you like was built.

That isn't to say I disparage 19th or early 20th century architecture. I actually find them quite beautiful and far superior to much of what is produced today. But that is not an argument against height or density; it is only an argument against the modernist fetishism of today's schools of architecture.
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Old August 10th, 2014, 03:25 AM   #1159
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why says the thread title "On Hold" btw. ?
It was approved and the site never underwent demolition. There is the proposal you see on this page which was put to the side in favor of renovating Hotel Penn, but recently Vornado has received plans to finance the revival of the proposed tower.
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Old August 10th, 2014, 01:10 PM   #1160
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if they do revive it that would be excellent
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