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Old November 17th, 2014, 04:42 AM   #1221
dexter2
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So what? How many medieval churches are in France? Are you gonna demolish them also because there is a lot of them? And what are you gonna do when in some time you realize that almost none is left? Cry? It'll be too late by then.


Anyway, there are much bigger architectural losses in NYC now, this one'll be is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Old November 17th, 2014, 05:11 AM   #1222
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Well if you ever have been on the inside of this hotel it looks like hell compared to the original. That's why people are not so upset about this building, while there is a great deal of concern about the Roosevelt because that is still in pristine condition and it is on the chopping block due to midtown east re-zoning
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Old November 17th, 2014, 05:35 AM   #1223
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And what are you gonna do when in some time you realize that almost none is left? Cry? It'll be too late by then.
.
Nothing because it will never reach that point, since most are illegal to demolish.
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Old November 17th, 2014, 02:40 PM   #1224
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Most? You mentioned just well-known landmarks, how about other buildings? Do you have complex knowledge about all worth-preserving old buildings in NYC?
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Old November 17th, 2014, 02:56 PM   #1225
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Americans have a whole other way of looking at their heritage than Europeans.

And at some point there will be almost nothing left. And I think that even then they won't care.

A couple of months ago there was a conversation on a Dutch radiostation about a centuries old building in upstate New York that was build by the Dutch. Some Dutch people were trying to save it from being demolished. But they said that Americans don't feel the same about these old buildings, so it's really hard to save these kind of stuff in the states.

Once a lot of the American cities were beautiful gems. Now only a handfull of them, for example Savannah, are still beautiful.
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Old November 17th, 2014, 03:50 PM   #1226
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Exactly. Not many people know that Detroit or Houston once looked similar to Boston or Philly.
Which cities are more attractive now? Yeah, that's retoric question...
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Old November 17th, 2014, 04:42 PM   #1227
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Quote:
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Americans have a whole other way of looking at their heritage than Europeans.

And at some point there will be almost nothing left. And I think that even then they won't care.

A couple of months ago there was a conversation on a Dutch radiostation about a centuries old building in upstate New York that was build by the Dutch. Some Dutch people were trying to save it from being demolished. But they said that Americans don't feel the same about these old buildings, so it's really hard to save these kind of stuff in the states.

Once a lot of the American cities were beautiful gems. Now only a handfull of them, for example Savannah, are still beautiful.
ThatOneGuy is actually European, so please don't generalize. I'd say most NYC and American posters here are very good about balancing heritage with new supertalls. You have to remember that not all New Yorkers are as "supertall" hungry as SSC forumers so you really are extrapolating based on a subset that is more 'pro-development'. And even then there are only a few who cough up the same "there's more left!" bs everytime this discussion comes up. Come to Soho, or Tribeca or Greenwich Village and you'll see lots of beautiful old structures.

You have to remember that modernism was the 'in' thing after World War II and so when America reached its Golden Years immediately after World War II society wanted nothing less than the most 'modern' product. The skyscraper was a sign of modernity and so many Americans at the time had no qualms about destroying the old buildings. The European Golden Years peaked in the 1960s. The French Trente Glorieuses reached its peak in the 1960s. By then, the Counterculture was developing and there was a backlash against conformist "modernism". American cities were flush with fancy new office buildings that took the place of old beautiful structures while Europe's economy didn't reach 'skyscraper mode' until the Counterculture had already developed and society began to move away from "material wealth"

Buildings Over 150m in the European Union before 1975:
Paris: Tour Les Poissons 150m (1970)
Paris: Tour Montparnasse 210m (1972)
Paris: Tour Areva 178m (1974)
Paris: Tour CB21 166m (1974)
Paris: Tour Ariane 152m (1974)

By this point the US already had hundreds of towers over 150m. So the historic preservation movement kicked in at the most opportune time to prevent Europe from going the American route (see the Montparnasse movement for instance). So it's not cultural but a mix of historical confluences that just helped Europe. Europe's economic and skyscraper boom paralleled the end of 'modernist' aspirations, the rise of historic preservation as a movement, the rise of the Counterculture, etc. There's tons of NIMBYism in the US (San Francisco, Washington, New York, Boston, etc). It's just that the NIMBY concern is misplaced and the truly devoted historic preservation folks are always outflanked by developers and city government keen on more tax revenues (for a while American cities were hemorrhaging people and no city gov't was going to say no to a 500' tower.)

As for American cities, there's tons of beauties: Savannah, Charleston, New Orleans, Galena, Asheville, New England and New York have tons of charming towns, Napa Valley villages, even the Texas Hill Country. Our major cities are not pretty nor do they have a chance to be. All but a handful in the US boomed in the 20th century and never had the history to claim old structures, etc. Detroit is an extreme outlier in that regard. It's a failed city but certainly not representative of the US as a whole. I think Washington DC, for instance, has done a good job of protecting its history. New York is woefully lacking in Midtown preservation though but the rest is good. It's just a function of history, not society.
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Old November 17th, 2014, 07:58 PM   #1228
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Thank you, exceedingly well stated. I would like this several times over if I could. (Also, shout out to Napa!)
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Old November 18th, 2014, 09:49 PM   #1229
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I wouldn't tear down the Hotel Penn for Pelli's Tower. has nothing to do with it's proximity to the ESB, the Pelli tower is down right UGLY!!

Just another retread of the tired Pelli design.. one of them is right across the Hudson in Jersey City.

Come on..got to do better!!
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Old November 18th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #1230
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I would agree... I have nothing against tearing down the Hotel Pennsylvania and have said it here a few times, because it's overall not worthy of saving, it's not that great a building for what a landmark should be. However the Pelli retread is not the way to go if it's going to be demolished. Something really original and worthy of New York City should go there.
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Old November 18th, 2014, 10:14 PM   #1231
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Most? You mentioned just well-known landmarks, how about other buildings? Do you have complex knowledge about all worth-preserving old buildings in NYC?
Why do you think those other buildings weren't given landmark status? Because they're mediocre and not worth preserving. Does this building really add anything meaningful to the area? How many ordinary people do you think gave a second thought about this building especially after they've seen those landmarks?

I'd say the building next to it looks way better, and honestly this hotel detracts from it. A nice modern tower next to it would add a sense of visual interest and contrast instead of just blending in with another dirty brick block. Even on Google Streetview there are plenty of similar-looking buildings on that street.
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Old November 18th, 2014, 10:41 PM   #1232
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I believe that most buildings on 7th ave and Broadway between 30th and 42nd streets should be landmarked. These buildings are beautiful. Sure some of them need a good restoration, but that's what should encouraged. Trust me I am definitely pro development, but this isn't the right area to be redeveloped. Broadway and 6th ave south of 30th street on the other hand...those blocks are horribly decrepit and should be redeveloped. If you don't believe me just take a walk on your lunch time around that area and you'll see exactly what I mean!
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Old November 18th, 2014, 11:10 PM   #1233
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I would agree... I have nothing against tearing down the Hotel Pennsylvania and have said it here a few times, because it's overall not worthy of saving, it's not that great a building for what a landmark should be. However the Pelli retread is not the way to go if it's going to be demolished. Something really original and worthy of New York City should go there.
I agree. Being such close proximity with ESB, 15 Penn NEEDS to be much better but either way, Hotel Penn can go afaic. Please!!!!

While the current proposal is nice imo, it should be for in a different location somewhere in midtown or lower manhattan.

I know ThatOneGuy is gonna kill me, but would not mind a 1,100' + Stern tower. lol. I know... wishful thinking on my part.
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Old November 19th, 2014, 03:11 AM   #1234
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Penn Station should be rebuilt.
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Old November 19th, 2014, 03:21 AM   #1235
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agree totally msg is a turd contaminating the area where the station needs to be
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Old November 19th, 2014, 03:30 AM   #1236
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I believe that most buildings on 7th ave and Broadway between 30th and 42nd streets should be landmarked. These buildings are beautiful. Sure some of them need a good restoration, but that's what should encouraged. Trust me I am definitely pro development, but this isn't the right area to be redeveloped. Broadway and 6th ave south of 30th street on the other hand...those blocks are horribly decrepit and should be redeveloped. If you don't believe me just take a walk on your lunch time around that area and you'll see exactly what I mean!

Broadway South of 30th down to Madison Sq Park/Flatiron Building is being transformed before our eyes.. Hotels, restaurants...this area is HOT right now and will continue. Some really beautiful old buildings on Bway being restored block after block.

As for 6th Ave...it's rundown for only a few blocks around 28th to 31st st..but even that has benn changing little by little.

The City is in a building boom the likes we've never seen and it goes why beyond the supertalls being built around 57th st, the Hudson Yards and the WTC.

NYC!!!
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Old November 19th, 2014, 04:41 AM   #1237
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As for 6th Ave...it's rundown for only a few blocks around 28th to 31st st..but even that has benn changing little by little.
That's exactly what I was talking about. The area bounded by 28th street, 6th ave, 31st street, and Broadway is is the area that needs to redeveloped. These blocks have nothing but taxpayers, surface parking lots, and decrepit buildings. The garment district buildings and hotel penn need to be restored and landmarked. Buildings like those cannot be replaced.
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Old November 19th, 2014, 06:46 PM   #1238
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Hotel Penn is a neoclassical designed building that isn't historically / culturally / architecturally all that significant. There are plenty of other better preserved examples of this architectural style around NYC and really all over the US. Infact there is one literally a block away at 6th ave and 34th st. Don't get me wrong I like the building but without being a real standout structure and with the proximity of the site to a major transportation hub it makes sense to demo and build something more appropriate for the location. It's sad but sometimes you gotta take Old Yeller out back and put him down.
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Old November 19th, 2014, 07:58 PM   #1239
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That's exactly what I was talking about. The area bounded by 28th street, 6th ave, 31st street, and Broadway is is the area that needs to redeveloped. These blocks have nothing but taxpayers, surface parking lots, and decrepit buildings. The garment district buildings and hotel penn need to be restored and landmarked. Buildings like those cannot be replaced.
Problem is that that stretch of 6th Avenue is zoned exclusively for commercial use, so residential development, the main driver of new development in the city, is not permitted.

The city should be rezoned to permit residential use everywhere (only excluding commercial/industrial uses where appropriate), but no one has the guts to do it.
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Old November 19th, 2014, 08:08 PM   #1240
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Problem is that that stretch of 6th Avenue is zoned exclusively for commercial use, so residential development, the main driver of new development in the city, is not permitted.

The city should be rezoned to permit residential use everywhere (only excluding commercial/industrial uses where appropriate), but no one has the guts to do it.
What? There is lots of residential on that stretch of 6th ave.
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