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Old August 24th, 2015, 01:02 PM   #361
hans280
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Originally Posted by yishbarr View Post
Heard the news? Well, X-rays prevent people with kalashnikovs from boarding a train in Israel.
Yes, I am a regular passenger on the Thalys and this little incident doesn't frighten me one bit. In fact I'm currently engaged in discussions here in France, arguing against heightened security. I make gratuitous use of quotations from the Nowegian then-prime minister Stoltenberg after the terror attacks in Oslo: "Terrorists shall not be allowed to terrorise us. We will not put armed guards in front of public buildings..." And so on.

No doubt attitudes will change if we get dozens of such attacks. But not quite yet. - And, oh, by the way: not even in the darkest days of IRA terrorism did the UK aurhorities allow armed patrolling by the police.
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Old August 24th, 2015, 04:29 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Yes, I am a regular passenger on the Thalys and this little incident doesn't frighten me one bit. In fact I'm currently engaged in discussions here in France, arguing against heightened security. I make gratuitous use of quotations from the Nowegian then-prime minister Stoltenberg after the terror attacks in Oslo: "Terrorists shall not be allowed to terrorise us. We will not put armed guards in front of public buildings..." And so on.

No doubt attitudes will change if we get dozens of such attacks. But not quite yet. - And, oh, by the way: not even in the darkest days of IRA terrorism did the UK aurhorities allow armed patrolling by the police.
Your attitude is a bit concerning. If things like this continue happening, the authorities should take care of it even if it happens once. No politics, but anyways, in Israel, we have 50 attacks daily (not necessarily fatal) from terrorists. The security here is successful, and it's actually not as intense as expected, but it's still required.
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Old August 24th, 2015, 05:23 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Yes, I am a regular passenger on the Thalys and this little incident doesn't frighten me one bit. In fact I'm currently engaged in discussions here in France, arguing against heightened security. I make gratuitous use of quotations from the Nowegian then-prime minister Stoltenberg after the terror attacks in Oslo: "Terrorists shall not be allowed to terrorise us. We will not put armed guards in front of public buildings..." And so on.

No doubt attitudes will change if we get dozens of such attacks. But not quite yet. - And, oh, by the way: not even in the darkest days of IRA terrorism did the UK aurhorities allow armed patrolling by the police.


I really respect your attitude. But actually I am more than glad that in Israel we do have a tight security check on out Train System. People (foreigners) claiming that they do not use Trains in Israel because of the security checks are - sorry for that - dumb. Most Israelis - including me - wont use the Trains without proper security. Because we Need it. It was proven often enough
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Old August 24th, 2015, 07:16 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Yes, I am a regular passenger on the Thalys and this little incident doesn't frighten me one bit. In fact I'm currently engaged in discussions here in France, arguing against heightened security. I make gratuitous use of quotations from the Nowegian then-prime minister Stoltenberg after the terror attacks in Oslo: "Terrorists shall not be allowed to terrorise us. We will not put armed guards in front of public buildings..." And so on.
If 200 Breiviks were, at the time of that incident, helping some white supremacist group carve a Nazi state in, say, Ukraine, he might have reconsidered.

Also, secutiy at train stations is not that bad. Lines are never really long from my experience (tbf, as a tourist, I rarely made the morning rush hour). In fact, the biggest transport line I saw was at the Jerusalem CBS, not at a rail station.
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Old August 24th, 2015, 07:39 PM   #365
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I really respect your attitude. But actually I am more than glad that in Israel we do have a tight security check on out Train System. People (foreigners) claiming that they do not use Trains in Israel because of the security checks are - sorry for that - dumb. Most Israelis - including me - wont use the Trains without proper security. Because we Need it. It was proven often enough
So, why am I dumb? I am perfectly aware of the Jewish soloquism according to which the preservation of human life is the highest moral impetus. However, as a northern protestant (originally from Denmark) I subscribe to another code, according to which the social interest trumps that of individuals. In clear text, I am not prepared to accept measures to ensure railway security if these move us closer toward an ugly, Spartan state.

Even the most radical measures currently considered here in France do not include systematic luggage checks, because (in the words of the head of SNCF) there's 700,000 people passing Gare du Nord daily and you cannot control them all without creating an unacceptable disruption. Yesterday a top officer in the national police went even further and described the idea of arms checks in railway stations as - yes, really - "dumb" because "then you might as well check entrants to shopping malls and cinemas, which would be ridiculous".

Kavim91, I cannot make myself clearer than this: I am prepared to risk a few hundred lives per year, including my own, if that's the price for avoiding the socially disruptive impacts of security controls in railway stations. - And THAT was the point the Nowegian PM made when he spoke against armed guards: maybe it enhances security, but security can come at too high a price.

If it's not too inappropriate, let me quote the prominent German Jewish scholar Marcel Reich-Ranicki: "If I change my everyday because I'm afraid, the antisémites will have won". I obviously don't want the antisémites to win. And I don't want the terrorists to win either...
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Old August 24th, 2015, 10:39 PM   #366
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Kavim91, I cannot make myself clearer than this: I am prepared to risk a few hundred lives per year, including my own, if that's the price for avoiding the socially disruptive impacts of security controls in railway stations.
Uhm...ok...
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Old August 25th, 2015, 04:11 AM   #367
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I agree that x-rays are kind of stupid. What is the point really?? other than the x-ray manufacturer who supported winning candidate in the last election..
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Old August 25th, 2015, 09:09 AM   #368
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I cannot make myself clearer than this: I am prepared to risk a few hundred lives per year, including my own, if that's the price for avoiding the socially disruptive impacts of security controls in railway stations.
That actually says it all. Good for you guys, you do not Need a security check liek we do in Israel - and I never claimed so. But we do in Israel, and I think ist very inappropriate to state someone wouldnt use the Trains in Israel because of security measures. Other than you, we prefer to not risk anyones live.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 01:32 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Even the most radical measures currently considered here in France do not include systematic luggage checks, because (in the words of the head of SNCF) there's 700,000 people passing Gare du Nord daily and you cannot control them all without creating an unacceptable disruption. Yesterday a top officer in the national police went even further and described the idea of arms checks in railway stations as - yes, really - "dumb" because "then you might as well check entrants to shopping malls and cinemas, which would be ridiculous".
Alright, that makes sense, but I still hope there is SOME kind of security. (BTW, in Israel we have security guards in places like that).

But that's not what I said. I wasn't asking you to put guards in French train stations, I was just saying that we need these things a lot more than you do, and if someone is going to come to this thread for objecting going through a second security gate that takes 5 seconds, because he doesn't have those things at home, that's kind of stupid.

Also, don't compare the IRA terrorism to what we have here.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 05:14 PM   #370
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That actually says it all. Good for you guys, you do not Need a security check liek we do in Israel - and I never claimed so. But we do in Israel, and I think ist very inappropriate to state someone wouldnt use the Trains in Israel because of security measures. Other than you, we prefer to not risk anyones live.
Most Israelis probably never take trains, or not to the extent Europeans do. There are several stations in Paris that handle more passengers than the entire Israeli train system. Installing metal detectors and luggage scanners is a non starter.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 05:30 PM   #371
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Most Israelis probably never take trains, or not to the extent Europeans do. There are several stations in Paris that handle more passengers than the entire Israeli train system. Installing metal detectors and luggage scanners is a non starter.
So what you wanna say? I said in the post that you quoted: I NEVER claimed they should/Need x-rays in Europe BUT we Need them in Israel AND if europeans come to Israel and do not take a Train here because of the securty measures its dubious. What you wanna tell me now?
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Old August 25th, 2015, 09:24 PM   #372
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Most Israelis probably never take trains, or not to the extent Europeans do. There are several stations in Paris that handle more passengers than the entire Israeli train system. Installing metal detectors and luggage scanners is a non starter.
Duh. Paris is probably really dense and has a longer history to it's railways from the industrial revolution, while in Israel which was only independent in 1948, a long time afterwards, until the 1990s, the government didn't build more railways, and it was stuck with the poor infrastructure built by the Ottomans, and stayed like that until then. And there are no extensive urban railways in Israel to move around, so people use the road.

Also, we have about 200 Thousand riders a day from 2014. That's 50 million a year, and with the new railways, especially the one to Jerusalem, it'll rise dramatically. And no, it doesn't matter that you have more users, because as I said, Paris is denser than places like Tel Aviv.

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Old August 25th, 2015, 11:02 PM   #373
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Duh. Paris is probably really dense and has a longer history to it's railways from the industrial revolution, while in Israel which was only independent in 1948, a long time afterwards, until the 1990s, the government didn't build more railways, and it was stuck with the poor infrastructure built by the Ottomans, and stayed like that until then. And there are no extensive urban railways in Israel to move around, so people use the road. Also, we have about 200 Thousand riders a day from 2014. That's 50 million a year, and with the new railways, especially the one to Jerusalem, it'll rise dramatically. And no, it doesn't matter that you have more users, because as I said, Paris is denser than places like Tel Aviv.
200000 a day is not a lot. That's a bit the point in trying to make. Wether Israel does, or does not need these security measures is not something I can judge. But what I do know is that it will become a hard to solve issue issue if the railways really become popular. How will you implement unmanned stops for example?
What will you do when you get 500000 a day in one station? Will you still make everybody pass a security checkpoint?
Imagine rail in Israel would become as popular as in Switzerland...
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Old August 26th, 2015, 12:00 AM   #374
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200000 a day is not a lot. That's a bit the point in trying to make. Wether Israel does, or does not need these security measures is not something I can judge. But what I do know is that it will become a hard to solve issue issue if the railways really become popular. How will you implement unmanned stops for example?
What will you do when you get 500000 a day in one station? Will you still make everybody pass a security checkpoint?
Imagine rail in Israel would become as popular as in Switzerland...
Well, imagine that now, suddenly from 200,000 a day, we get to the amount of train users in Switzerland. Nice imagination, not happening at least now. Also, there are no halt stations, though that would be nice, but as I said, Israel has no urban railways, and the distances between largely populated areas is small, so no stops in the suburbs yet. Until the political situation gets better, there's going to be security gates.

What are you trying to say? I mean, yes, 200,000 is not a lot, that means security is easier than other countries, right? As I said, I didn't ask anyone to put guards in their stations.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 02:55 PM   #375
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Comparing the need for security checks in Israel to the need for security checks in Europe is difficult because Israel has many thousands of Breiviks, intent on completing what what Europeans started in the 1930s. Israel could solve the problem quite simply by executing every convicted terrorist instead of releasing them after a few years, but taking human life (even the life of a terrorist) is highly objectionable to Jews. Hence Israelis put up with security checks that the rest of the world would find intolerable. In Israel, the alternatives to the security checks are to either execute all the terrorists or eventually be exterminated as a people. Europe doesn't have such a problem.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 04:09 PM   #376
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Well, imagine that now, suddenly from 200,000 a day, we get to the amount of train users in Switzerland. Nice imagination, not happening at least now.
Well, reverting to my earlier post the number of passengers passing through the Gare du Nord (the terminus of Thalys) on an average day is 700,000. - And that's just one out of six railway stations in urban Paris. This makes certain approaches to security totally unfeasible unless you want to make people wait for almost as long as in the airport.

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As I said, I didn't ask anyone to put guards in their stations.
Fair enough. For the reasons I mentioned this is not going to happen either. The exception is the Eurostar terminals - and THAT has more to do with the British immigration authorities' claim to stop asylum seekers on French soil rather than their own.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 05:57 PM   #377
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ANNNYYYWAYYYS, I find this one interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-s...y_to_Kfar_Yona

Never heard of it, but they started building it 3 days ago. Looks like they are seriously trying to build in the periphery, which is good, since usually they only do that on existing rail lines, not dedicated lines. No sources are listed, so I can't prove anything yet.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 06:36 PM   #378
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Also, I think the new "East lev Hamifratz" station and the old one are actually going to be in the same building. They're building this massive building in Haifa which will include the coast line station, the Valley line station, and the railway terminal to Nazareth, whether it's a light rail or not.

The railway bridge is for the valley line, the road bridge is for Haifa's BRT, and the other railway, and the Nazareth railway is at the back, on ground level.
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Old August 26th, 2015, 06:44 PM   #379
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ANNNYYYWAYYYS, I find this one interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-s...y_to_Kfar_Yona

Never heard of it, but they started building it 3 days ago. Looks like they are seriously trying to build in the periphery, which is good, since usually they only do that on existing rail lines, not dedicated lines. No sources are listed, so I can't prove anything yet.
Hmmmm.... it looks like this is mostly about connecting Kfar Yona to Netanya? From there the trains will (or so it seems) follow the legacy tracks from Netanya to Tel Aviv, and then the newish tracks from Tel Aviv to Modi'in. In that case I'm not sure the word "high-speed" is very appropriate, because the middle third of that route is anything but modern. Except, perhaps, significant renovations and speed upgrades are planned for the Netanya-Herzliya-Tel Aviv line?
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Old August 26th, 2015, 07:00 PM   #380
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Hmmmm.... it looks like this is mostly about connecting Kfar Yona to Netanya? From there the trains will (or so it seems) follow the legacy tracks from Netanya to Tel Aviv, and then the newish tracks from Tel Aviv to Modi'in. In that case I'm not sure the word "high-speed" is very appropriate, because the middle third of that route is anything but modern. Except, perhaps, significant renovations and speed upgrades are planned for the Netanya-Herzliya-Tel Aviv line?
Yes.

No, it's too small to be a high speed line. For some odd reason, many new railways are known as HSR in Israel, even though they're not and far from being one.

I think that's just a term used by strange Wikipedia editors for new railways that are relatively straight, and don't use level crossings, or parallel positions to roads, so trains actually go faster than usual, but it's a bad term.

Even the HSR to Jlem isn't a real HSR, (I think) since trains won't go faster than 160 km.

Other railways, like the railway to Modiin, Beer Sheva, Carmiel, are known has "High speed".

Unless the Jlem train will eventually manage to accelerate to 210 km/h somewhere, the only HSRs in Israel would be the railway to Eilat, which would reach a maximum of 300 km/h in the Aravah, and the new HSR which will be built between Netanya and Binyamina for TA - Haifa trains.

But in general, there is going to be a segregated line for the Raanana branch between TA and Herzelia, and another segregated line for extra train traffic for suburban services in the Netanya - Binyamina are, or something like that.
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