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Old June 18th, 2008, 02:32 AM   #241
berkshire royal
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Originally Posted by Judge Phillip Banks View Post
Yeah, I was also pretty suprised to see how MLS attendance stacks up against the rest of the world. Especially in comparison to places like Brazil, Italy, and Argentina.

MLS average attendances rival that of the NBA and NHL, so I guess thats a good sign.
i reckon mls attendances could outgrow those two leagues soon and i heard that soccer in now beginning to become more popular than hockey dunno if thats right though. i wouldnt be suprised if the mls overtook the Italian Seria A soon and also the Argentinian Primera Division. i have to admit i was suprised to see attendances in those countries were so low but im guessing its probably down to very poor levels of stadiums infrastructure and poor security which put off a lot of people but i reckon after the 2014 world cup the attendances in brazil will probably shoot up and might even overtake germany and england.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 02:55 AM   #242
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good to hear. Montreal would be an awesome city for a team and a natural rival for Toronto. I would imagine it would have a pretty good fanbase too.
We have had the top attendance in the USL the last few years and so far every game in Saputo Stadium (13,500 capacity) has sold out.

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and i guess the new Seattle team...what is a Sounder?
The Sounders name comes from the fact that Seattle lies inside of Puget Sound.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 04:06 AM   #243
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Aaah, Canadian derby? After what FC Toronto present it could be really electric... What position would this rivalry put Vancouver in?
And btw, do you know if there is any tension between Chivas and Galaxy?
yeah, that would be an awesome game between TO and Montreal. Toronto has some pretty great fans.

Vancouver if awarded a team would probally have more of a rivarly with the nearby Sounders.

I am not too sure how big the rivarly is between Chivas U.S. and the Galaxy. I would imagine there is some tension, but the two teams are too new for it to be a geniune rivarly.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 04:25 AM   #244
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We have had the top attendance in the USL the last few years and so far every game in Saputo Stadium (13,500 capacity) has sold out.
.
Thats great for an USL team. I imagine the city would pack the house for an MLS game!

Sigh.....all this talk of the MLS just makes me sad knowing that my city will never have a team.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 06:41 AM   #245
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i have to admit i take an interest in the MLS i find it interesting seeing football being mixed with american sporting tradition which gives this league an interesting and very different feel to other leagues around the world. generally the league is becoming more and more of a success and despite what some people say about the level of popularity the sport has in terms of attendance figures the MLS is a relatively high number 11 in world football/soccer domestic leagues with an average gate of 16,770 and as far as i am aware are these figures are growing regularly.
is there any news regarding current clubs expanding their stadiums as i remember reading somewhere mentioning that fc toronto are looking to expand their stadium.
Let me start by saying I am a big fan of growing the game here and I support MLS...so when I tell you the attendance figures are more than a little misleading, please don't tell me I hate the game and want it to swiftly fade from the American sports scene. Kenn Tomasch worked for the league and tracked attendance figures regularly. He has since left the league and no longer has an interest in keeping track of paid gate estimates. A few points (to paraphrase his work):

1-In most of the rest of the world, attendance is tracked in terms of how many actually show up for a match. Here, it is based upon tickets distributed.

2-If you don't show up here but possess a ticket, you still count. In Europe/SA, you don't.

3-Two years ago, about 1 in 4 tickets here is a freebee. In Europe/SA, someone is paying for nearly every ticket. Even if you get a free one, most likely it was purchased by a corporation for clients.

As a result, attendance here is relatively overstated. It has improved in the last 2 years, but if the average is 16,000, the paying ticket base is about 12,000-13,000 and the numbers actually attending are closer to 11,000-12,000. MLS is also in the habit of playing double headers with national team matches or European exhibition matches headlining. For example, I went to a Fire-Columbus match a couple of years back that immediately preceded Chivas (Guadalajara) vs. Real Madrid. 60,000 showed up at Soldier Field and the Fire got attendance credit for that. Never mind 1/2 the crowd was Mexican and another 1/4 to 40% showed up to see Beckham, Zidane, Figo and Co.

MLS will not expand stadia for some time. They'll reduce the number of comped tickets first. Then, they'll increase the ticket prices to make the match a more scarce, must see "event" rather than something you can pay $15 to see if the weather is nice.

Part of the draw of the new soccer specific stadia (SSS) is that the crowd seems more full than playing in a larger American football stadium, so the atmosphere is better. The new SSS are scalable, so what you'll most likely see is one stand at a time being remodeled. Maybe they add a second tier to the main stand to increase capacity by 4,000 or so first, etc until everything looks symmetrical again.

I'm not complaining though. The simple fact that the league is still around and they didn't try to grow too quickly like MLS' predecessor NASL is a good first step. The fact that ESPN is actually showing the Euro matches on mainstream TV rather than Setanta covering it shows me that soccer is hitting the mainstream. MLS actually has a contract now with ABC/ESPN to show games, which is a big leap from the league actually paying the network to broadcast MLS a couple of years ago. We'll get there, but it won't be quick.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 06:48 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Nat76 View Post
Let me start by saying I am a big fan of growing the game here and I support MLS...so when I tell you the attendance figures are more than a little misleading, please don't tell me I hate the game and want it to swiftly fade from the American sports scene. Kenn Tomasch worked for the league and tracked attendance figures regularly. He has since left the league and no longer has an interest in keeping track of paid gate estimates. A few points (to paraphrase his work):

1-In most of the rest of the world, attendance is tracked in terms of how many actually show up for a match. Here, it is based upon tickets distributed.

2-If you don't show up here but possess a ticket, you still count. In Europe/SA, you don't.

3-Two years ago, about 1 in 4 tickets here is a freebee. In Europe/SA, someone is paying for nearly every ticket. Even if you get a free one, most likely it was purchased by a corporation for clients.

As a result, attendance here is relatively overstated. It has improved in the last 2 years, but if the average is 16,000, the paying ticket base is about 12,000-13,000 and the numbers actually attending are closer to 11,000-12,000. MLS is also in the habit of playing double headers with national team matches or European exhibition matches headlining. For example, I went to a Fire-Columbus match a couple of years back that immediately preceded Chivas (Guadalajara) vs. Real Madrid. 60,000 showed up at Soldier Field and the Fire got attendance credit for that. Never mind 1/2 the crowd was Mexican and another 1/4 to 40% showed up to see Beckham, Zidane, Figo and Co.

MLS will not expand stadia for some time. They'll reduce the number of comped tickets first. Then, they'll increase the ticket prices to make the match a more scarce, must see "event" rather than something you can pay $15 to see if the weather is nice.

Part of the draw of the new soccer specific stadia (SSS) is that the crowd seems more full than playing in a larger American football stadium, so the atmosphere is better. The new SSS are scalable, so what you'll most likely see is one stand at a time being remodeled. Maybe they add a second tier to the main stand to increase capacity by 4,000 or so first, etc until everything looks symmetrical again.

I'm not complaining though. The simple fact that the league is still around and they didn't try to grow too quickly like MLS' predecessor NASL is a good first step. The fact that ESPN is actually showing the Euro matches on mainstream TV rather than Setanta covering it shows me that soccer is hitting the mainstream. MLS actually has a contract now with ABC/ESPN to show games, which is a big leap from the league actually paying the network to broadcast MLS a couple of years ago. We'll get there, but it won't be quick.
i agree with most of what you said, however numbers 1 and 2 are not necessarily true
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Old June 18th, 2008, 07:20 AM   #247
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I think Seattle can fill up Qwest better then other cities could fill up there football stadiums, forcing them to move to smaller stadiums.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 07:33 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by en1044 View Post
i agree with most of what you said, however numbers 1 and 2 are not necessarily true
I'll show you how one is absolutely true and the other is at least generally true.

MLS attendance figures:

Read this article here: http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...z1s27goal.html

Paid tickets + comps in every case < announced attendance, so not only is MLS counting all tickets distributed (paid and free), they're actually counting more than all tickets distributed toward attendance.

In general, other nations use gate attendance rather than paid attendance when recording crowds. For example, the EPL here: http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/attend.html

The top of this list had 100% complete sellouts for all games in terms of paid attendance. Yet for example, Old Trafford's attendance was 500 less than capacity. This was due to the fact that official attendance figures count those who show up rather than those who purchase tickets. For every league match played there, there were 500 unused tickets per match. In leagues where crowd aren't as well controlled, i.e., no turnstiles, ticket scanning, this can't hold true.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 07:34 AM   #249
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Anyways, back to US soccer stadiums. Last I read on here about DC United, the original plans for the poplar point stadium have been scrapped, but the team and a new developer are working on a much more toned down stadium design, and are looking for government funding.
No, the plans to build are not dead, in fact the DC city council is supposed to make a decision whether to build or not in the near future.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 07:40 AM   #250
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DC needs to build that stadium, RFK is a relic left over from the past that needs to be demolished ASAP!
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Old June 18th, 2008, 07:40 AM   #251
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DC needs to build that stadium, RFK is a relic left over from the past that needs to be demolished ASAP!
ah, if only it was that simple

DC needs a new stadium, but i would hate to see RFK demolished as a result
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Old June 18th, 2008, 07:49 AM   #252
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ah, if only it was that simple

DC needs a new stadium, but i would hate to see RFK demolished as a result
Hate? what else would you use it for? RFK would serve no purpose other then sitting there and rotting.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 07:51 AM   #253
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Hate? what else would you use it for? RFK would serve no purpose other then sitting there and rotting.
its true, i know it has to go, it would just be a sad day in DC. Kinda like Yankee Stadium...a piece of crap but has so much history
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Old June 18th, 2008, 07:53 AM   #254
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its true, i know it has to go, it would just be a sad day in DC. Kinda like Yankee Stadium...a piece of crap but has so much history
I know how it is, the same thing will happen in Dallas next year when the Cowboys move from Texas Stadium to The New Stadium. It will be demolished.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 08:25 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Nat76 View Post
I'll show you how one is absolutely true and the other is at least generally true.

MLS attendance figures:

Read this article here: http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...z1s27goal.html

Paid tickets + comps in every case < announced attendance, so not only is MLS counting all tickets distributed (paid and free), they're actually counting more than all tickets distributed toward attendance.

In general, other nations use gate attendance rather than paid attendance when recording crowds. For example, the EPL here: http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/attend.html

The top of this list had 100% complete sellouts for all games in terms of paid attendance. Yet for example, Old Trafford's attendance was 500 less than capacity. This was due to the fact that official attendance figures count those who show up rather than those who purchase tickets. For every league match played there, there were 500 unused tickets per match. In leagues where crowd aren't as well controlled, i.e., no turnstiles, ticket scanning, this can't hold true.
It looks like to me that attendance exaggeration is not limited to MLS only in American pro sports. Last year an argument about the problem in MLB as well was reported by Korean medias. 375 VS 10,121. About the attendance of an MLB game Florida Marlins VS Washington Nationals played at Dolphins Stadium, Miami on 13th Sep 2007, the former is the figure which was counted one by one by a journalist and the latter is, surprisingly, official attendance figure published by the club! Incidently the game was broadcast live to Korean audiences including me because a Korean pitcher was to start the game. I remember the attendance then was so small that even I could count it on TV!

Of course I know that's because Florida Marlins count in unattended ticket buyers as other American professional clubs do and that fact was also explained in the article but one thing is certain. We cannot say that the American way of counting spectators is compliant with global standard and in conclusion the published attendance figures of American pro sports are somewhat overstated from the point of view of European football.

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
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Old June 18th, 2008, 08:35 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Nat76 View Post
I'll show you how one is absolutely true and the other is at least generally true.

MLS attendance figures:

Read this article here: http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...z1s27goal.html

Paid tickets + comps in every case < announced attendance, so not only is MLS counting all tickets distributed (paid and free), they're actually counting more than all tickets distributed toward attendance.

In general, other nations use gate attendance rather than paid attendance when recording crowds. For example, the EPL here: http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/attend.html

The top of this list had 100% complete sellouts for all games in terms of paid attendance. Yet for example, Old Trafford's attendance was 500 less than capacity. This was due to the fact that official attendance figures count those who show up rather than those who purchase tickets. For every league match played there, there were 500 unused tickets per match. In leagues where crowd aren't as well controlled, i.e., no turnstiles, ticket scanning, this can't hold true.
Ill use FedEx Field as an example of how its not necessarily true. Last year the home game against the Cowboys was the highest attended Redskins game in the history of FedEx Field with 90,910 people there. FedEx field seats 91,704 people and has been sold out every year it has been open. Since it was sold out, shouldnt the attendance have been 91,704?
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Old June 18th, 2008, 12:11 PM   #257
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Ill use FedEx Field as an example of how its not necessarily true. Last year the home game against the Cowboys was the highest attended Redskins game in the history of FedEx Field with 90,910 people there. FedEx field seats 91,704 people and has been sold out every year it has been open. Since it was sold out, shouldnt the attendance have been 91,704?
Depends on the capacity used by the team. They might not sell tickets to seats with poor sightlines (and from what I read here and there FedEx has quite some of those) or something like that. Of course that doesn't have to be the thing, but I think the numbers you've given don't proove much.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 02:57 AM   #258
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Depends on the capacity used by the team. They might not sell tickets to seats with poor sightlines (and from what I read here and there FedEx has quite some of those) or something like that. Of course that doesn't have to be the thing, but I think the numbers you've given don't proove much.
no, every seat is available, good and bad. The game i used is a good example as it was one of the biggest games in the teams history. More people actually showed up. It shows that it necessarily go by tickets distributed because the stadium would have been at capacity if it were the case
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Old June 19th, 2008, 06:15 AM   #259
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nice thread. Metrostars stadium will blow everything away. If it ever gets built.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 06:16 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Carrerra View Post
It looks like to me that attendance exaggeration is not limited to MLS only in American pro sports. Last year an argument about the problem in MLB as well was reported by Korean medias. 375 VS 10,121. About the attendance of an MLB game Florida Marlins VS Washington Nationals played at Dolphins Stadium, Miami on 13th Sep 2007, the former is the figure which was counted one by one by a journalist and the latter is, surprisingly, official attendance figure published by the club! Incidently the game was broadcast live to Korean audiences including me because a Korean pitcher was to start the game. I remember the attendance then was so small that even I could count it on TV!
image hosted on flickr
I would say that this applies mainly to MLB and NBA. Rarely will you ever see empy seats at NFL and NCAA games. Its much more obvious in places like Miami where you can literally count the pathetic crowds.
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