Orlando to get Great Wheel!

[MNiemann]

Originally Posted by FloridaFuture

^Great job comapring cities a 1000+ years old to cities that are barely a hundred years old.

not to mention

Paris - 2.16 million

Warsaw - 1.8 million

Barcelona - 1.6 million

Orlando - 228,000

Tampa - 337,000

[jzquince69]

Sorry, Weisheit, but you need to get your facts straight. Chicago and every other major metropolitan area are all choc full of sprawl... it's called having suburbs. Orlando's got them too.

And you are way off base about Orlando proper. Who was that nutsack, Zerobullchip, who lived out by UCF and used that as his standard for what Orlando is? Work, live, and play downtown or near downtown- that's where it's at.

[Weisheit]

Originally Posted by jzquince69

Sorry, Weisheit, but you need to get your facts straight. Chicago and every other major metropolitan area are all choc full of sprawl... it's called having suburbs. Orlando's got them too.

......That's exactly my point. The sprawl is spread out over large distances, and not centered around DT. Furthermore there's little (read terrible) public transportation to take people between these places. Since when did having sprawl amount to "urban"?

Work, live, and play downtown or near downtown- that's where it's at.

I agree. The problem is DT is tiny, and only a tiny fraction of any metropolitan areas population lives there. Most of these people are living in the suburbs, which is nothing like urban living.

I think you missed my point that having a tiny semi-urban core doesn't make Orlando urban.

Originally Posted by FloridaFuture

^Great job comapring cities a 1000+ years old to cities that are barely a hundred years old.

Fair point. It doesn't change the fact though that many people made decisions to build cities that
went in the opposite direction of urban living.

Originally Posted by MNiemann

not to mention

Paris - 2.16 million

Warsaw - 1.8 million

Barcelona - 1.6 million

Orlando - 228,000

Tampa - 337,000

I wont post more pictures but population statistics are meaningless. The only difference between Those big cities and smaller ones in much of Europe is height and the extent to which the human mass extends. I live in a city of less than 70k (not a skyscraper in sight) and it's much more "urban" than any US city I've been to save NYC.

[MNiemann]

Originally Posted by NihonKitty

Also about the theme park stuff, isnt orlando the biggest city for conventions in the US?

Yes this is somewhat true. I'm not sure if you can count the convention atendees as "tourists" (state budgets separate the two categories) but the convention center here is the 2nd largest in the U.S. behind Chicago, and we have the second largest number of hotel rooms in the U.S. behind Vegas. Orlando is still behind Chicago in terms of numbers of conventions, though.

[FloridaFuture]

Originally Posted by Weisheit

......That's exactly my point. The sprawl is spread out over large distances, and not centered around DT. Furthermore there's little (read terrible) public transportation to take people between these places. Since when did having sprawl amount to "urban"?

I think everyone here agrees with that...

Originally Posted by Weisheit

Fair point. It doesn't change the fact though that many people made decisions to build cities that
went in the opposite direction of urban living.

Well, you also have to not only consider how old the cities are but the time they were layed out as well. The majority of Paris's, Warsaw's and Barcelona's existance have been in a pre-car society where people HAD to stay dense and close. Those three cities in no way CHOSE to build urban, it was their only option anyway. I can't speak for Orlando becasue I don't know much about its history but Tampa and Jacksonville were as urban as those older, bigger cities pre-WWII/before cars and highways were common, just on a smaller scale.

Plus Europe has had a tradition of urban for 1000+ years, while North America other then the Northeast and a few other cities does not have an urban tradition at all.

[Weisheit]

Originally Posted by FloridaFuture

Well, you also have to not only consider how old the cities are but the time they were layed out as well. The majority of Paris's, Warsaw's and Barcelona's existance have been in a pre-car society where people HAD to stay dense and close. Those three cities in no way CHOSE to build urban, it was their only option anyway.

This is all definitely true. I was just trying to get across that most people coming from cities in Europe (probably northern US cities too) aren't going to Orlando for its "urban fabric". It's not meant as a slight on Orlando btw, Tampa, Jacksonville, even Miami don't have "urban living" on the same scale (or quality) as equivalently sized European cites (this is probably true of most US cities).

I can't speak for Orlando becasue I don't know much about its history but Tampa and Jacksonville were as urban as those older, bigger cities pre-WWII/before cars and highways were common, just on a smaller scale.

I still don't understand why so many US cities abandoned their cores in favor of building subdivisions. Urban living>>>>>>>>>>>>>>suburban living. I guess it's culture and the idea of owning a house, car, ect.

[MNiemann]

Originally Posted by Weisheit

I still don't understand why so many US cities abandoned their cores in favor of building subdivisions. Urban living>>>>>>>>>>>>>>suburban living. I guess it's culture and the idea of owning a house, car, ect.

For the same reason London, Manchester, Hong Kong, Brasília, and Melbourne are experiencing inevitable suburban sprawl. With the invention of the car and a distribution of greater wealth among a larger group of people everyone wants to have their own space and their own yard, and, at least in this country, a neighborhood where kids can still run down the street and play with the neighbor kids and tell their parents they'll be home before dark and the parents never have to worry. it's not my thing, but unfortunately it became an american thing very early on when these cities were first being developed, and now it's happening in many of the other continents too.

Our only hope to bring our American cities back to being "more urban" is that people will realize that building up instead of out is not only good for the environment, but essential for our survival on this planet. as thinking and "being" green becomes more popular we might see a shift in perspective. these issues are the whole reason i joined this website anyway.

[lamsalfl]

New Orleans is pretty urban. Especially the Quarter. Ever look at the birds eye view (it's better than aerials) on http://maps.live.com of the quarter?

[Dale]

Yeah, why the Rhinoceros Beetle up the butt ? I don't get it.

[jzquince69]

I don't think anyone ever said specifically that european tourists were coming to Orlando b/c of its urban fabric. It is a fact though that there are tens of thousands of Brits that do live here.

Decades ago, people with $$$ moved to the 'burbs, period. Why? B/c conditions had deteriorated so much in the center of town that they needed to make a change to a lifestyle which was safer and also one which offered more. Only recently did urban renewal catch on across the board. But places like Chicago somehow always managed to maintain a halfway decent urban core throughout all of this transition.

As for Orlando, from Winter Park south, and from OBT in, all the way to Conway Rd., and all the way south to Pine Castle area, Orlando is pretty dense with older established neighborhoods and retail centers. There is no train, but there will be hopefully soon.

As for Orlando's downtown, there is another misconception about just who and how many people live here. First off, we all know about this latest boom which brought a bunch of condo towers. But, 10 years prior, there was another boom that brought another slew of condo and high density residential projects as well. This, didn't create the urban fabric... it was already here, b/c downtown Orlando is surrounded on all four sides by established neighborhoods- not by a bunch of PUD's.

Let's just keep it real. Everyone loves to knock this town b/c of Disney and b/c of sprawl, but that shouldn't blind people to the fact that there is a real city at the heart of it all. And the train will come.

And I think this whole discussion started b/c someone couldn't understand why Great Wheel found it necessary to dump $250M on a wheel in the I-Drive tourist corridor.

[ukiyo]

Originally Posted by jzquince69

I don't think anyone ever said specifically that european tourists were coming to Orlando b/c of its urban fabric. It is a fact though that there are tens of thousands of Brits that do live here.

Decades ago, people with $$$ moved to the 'burbs, period. Why? B/c conditions had deteriorated so much in the center of town that they needed to make a change to a lifestyle which was safer and also one which offered more. Only recently did urban renewal catch on across the board. But places like Chicago somehow always managed to maintain a halfway decent urban core throughout all of this transition.

As for Orlando, from Winter Park south, and from OBT in, all the way to Conway Rd., and all the way south to Pine Castle area, Orlando is pretty dense with older established neighborhoods and retail centers. There is no train, but there will be hopefully soon.

As for Orlando's downtown, there is another misconception about just who and how many people live here. First off, we all know about this latest boom which brought a bunch of condo towers. But, 10 years prior, there was another boom that brought another slew of condo and high density residential projects as well. This, didn't create the urban fabric... it was already here, b/c downtown Orlando is surrounded on all four sides by established neighborhoods- not by a bunch of PUD's.

Let's just keep it real. Everyone loves to knock this town b/c of Disney and b/c of sprawl, but that shouldn't blind people to the fact that there is a real city at the heart of it all. And the train will come.

And I think this whole discussion started b/c someone couldn't understand why Great Wheel found it necessary to dump $250M on a wheel in the I-Drive tourist corridor.

I agree i come from a city with a population of 21 million, more urban and more people that any of those european cities, yet i don't see the point of bringing down Orlando because theyre not like us. Yokohama has a nice wheel so why shouldnt Orlando? It's the most visited city in US and it's growing fast. It will give people in Orlando more pride in their city, and it's fun and tourists will have another thing to do. Like the other guy said "if you build it they will come"

[Weisheit]

Originally Posted by jzquince69

I don't think anyone ever said specifically that european tourists were coming to Orlando b/c of its urban fabric. It is a fact though that there are tens of thousands of Brits that do live here.

I was responding to this:

Originally Posted by MNiemann

I live downtown and I see folks that come visit here from all over the world and never even make it down to the theme parks.

Originally Posted by jzquince69

There is no train, but there will be hopefully soon.

Yeah, this is one (probably the most important, so far as I can tell) difference between European cities I've lived in and Tampa/Jacksonville/Orlando. Mass transit (bike riding, walking, using a moped too) is actually a viable option here as opposed to driving everywhere.

Originally Posted by jzquince69

As for Orlando's downtown, there is another misconception about just who and how many people live here. First off, we all know about this latest boom which brought a bunch of condo towers. But, 10 years prior, there was another boom that brought another slew of condo and high density residential projects as well. This, didn't create the urban fabric... it was already here

I never really questioned its existence so much as its size and viability (and again this is lots of US cities). When I lived in Tampa/Orlando living in DT wasn't financially viable for 99% of the cities population. Even if it was financially viable the infrastructure to support said "urbanity" doesn't exist (with some exceptions).

Originally Posted by jzquince69

b/c downtown Orlando is surrounded on all four sides by established neighborhoods- not by a bunch of PUD's.

What's a "PUD"?

Originally Posted by jzquince69

Let's just keep it real. Everyone loves to knock this town b/c of Disney and b/c of sprawl

The Disney part is undoubtedly true. Lots of US cities have the sprawl problem though.

And I think this whole discussion started b/c someone couldn't understand why Great Wheel found it necessary to dump $250M on a wheel in the I-Drive tourist corridor.

I like the wheel.

[jzquince69]

Anyway, I think we can all agree that Most traditional transit-oriented cities are mainly oversees with the exception of NYC and Chicago. It is what it is.

My point about Orlando is that if you cross Rosalind from the Orange County Cthse, you are in an established residential neighborhood. Same goes for the area north and south of Lake Eola, up by Lake Highland Prep, towards the NW from Lake Ivanhoe towards the southern edge of College Park, due west of I-4 (Parramore neighborhood in need of help), and right off of Anderson and Orange Ave near Lake Lucerne. These are regular neighborhoods right downtown with houses that are over 70 years old, some older than that. Orlando's prior condo/residential booms merely added to that. Downtown is not some artificial facsimile in the middle of a suburban PUD (Planned Unit Development) like Waterford Lakes or Hunter's Creek. This is a real city with a real urban fabric- maybe not what you see in Amsterdam with hot women in spandex riding their bicycles in 30 degree weather, but its here nevertheless.

Also, within the CBD, there are a ton of restaurants, bars, and shops (I've created a thread listing and discussing them); many new ones under build-out as we speak, and of course you have your casualties b/c of the economy and other factors like any other place.

There are tourists that visit downtown Orlando. I've seen Brits down here and Chinese tourists; But there's a lot of reasons why people come to Orlando-- just like with any other city, if you know someone who lives there, you'll probably go and visit if you would not otherwise go. There's some of that here too. But the majority come here for the mouse. But that doesn't bother me one bit, b/c it's in the same county and a huge portion of the hotel rooms are actually within the city limits-- and all of Universal Orlando. But so what? Millenia is within the city limits too and is one of the most successful upscale malls anywhere, but the fact that it isn't downtown shouldn't detract from its stature, should it?

Yeah, if a Water Tower Place and State St. and a Macy's were downtown, I would be more content. In their absence, downtown does have several clothing stores, a major grocer, a couple of smaller ones, many restaurants and bars, a lot of downtown residents, several major churches, and at least the Lymmo line that takes you pretty much everywhere within the CBD (set to expand). People have been living/working downtown since this city's inception. I'd say downtown is and has been pretty viable for quite some time.

A lot of you on these boards try to value a city based on how it's downtown is perceived; downtown is just one element to a city. And from what has been established and discussed on these boards, Orlando has nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to its downtown; its got its residents, workers, offices, industry, downtown parks (that's more than one), Lymmo bus line, stores, etc...

It isn't downtown Chicago or NY and never will be, but, there are projects getting built and approved regularly that will continue to move it farther along in that direction.

[Weisheit]

Yeah I don't disagree w/ what you're saying.

Originally Posted by jzquince69

People have been living/working downtown since this city's inception. I'd say downtown is and has been pretty viable for quite some time.

I wasn't saying DT itself isn't viable, just that for most folks actually going and living there (and therefore leading an "urban" lifestyle) isn't, whether b/c of money, lack of infrastructure, ect.

And when I say "lack of infrastructure" I don't necessarily mean there's none, but rather, not enough to support the types of populations that should be living in an urban core (I'm pretty sure this is a bigger problem for Tampa at the moment).

A lot of you on these boards try to value a city based on how it's downtown is perceived;

I certainly don't, in most smaller Euro cities (like where I live) DT is indistinguishable from the rest of the city for lack
highrises.

[0BC]

Originally Posted by jzquince69

And you are way off base about Orlando proper. Who was that nutsack, Zerobullchip, who lived out by UCF and used that as his standard for what Orlando is? Work, live, and play downtown or near downtown- that's where it's at.

Lived and worked in downtown Orlando for 5 years and downtown Tampa area for 3 or 4 years. I now live in Seattle. I was there in the begining of the (re)development of DT Orlando so my opinions are based on experience and not just pixy dust dreams. In fact most of what I was talking about came true concerning Orlando, so perhaps you should lay off the name calling.

[MNiemann]

Originally Posted by Weisheit

I wasn't saying DT itself isn't viable, just that for most folks actually going and living there (and therefore leading an "urban" lifestyle) isn't, whether b/c of money, lack of infrastructure, ect.

And when I say "lack of infrastructure" I don't necessarily mean there's none, but rather, not enough to support the types of populations that should be living in an urban core (I'm pretty sure this is a bigger problem for Tampa at the moment).

So what type of infrastructure is Orlando currently lacking then? Yeah we don't have a train but the bus downtown is free. You can live in a $5 million condo at the vue or get an apartment for $600 a month. There are even parts of downtown that go for less than that. I really don't see what keeps anyone from living here. i think it's just that most people here are very suburban and contented filling up their cars with gas once (or more) a week. i don't get it, but for some reason people still just LOVE moving out to new developments in Davenport, Hunters Creek, Windermere, Lake Mary, etc. EVEN when some of these places end up being more expensive (and more trashy)

[Weisheit]

Originally Posted by MNiemann

So what type of infrastructure is Orlando currently lacking then?

Depends on your perspective I suppose. Remember, I was only saying that having a small urban core doesn't make a city urban. If anything DT is urban and every other neighborhood in the city is suburban. That hardly means one would be accurate in describing the city of Orlando as urban.

Earlier you said:

what's not urban about orlando? the non-urban parts. that's it.

The problem is, that's essentially everywhere save DT...

Yeah we don't have a train but the bus downtown is free.

I honestly don't know, but, I'm willing to bet that that bus service is dreadful....Got a link for route and schedule?

[jzquince69]

Originally Posted by 0BC

Lived and worked in downtown Orlando for 5 years and downtown Tampa area for 3 or 4 years. I now live in Seattle. I was there in the begining of the (re)development of DT Orlando so my opinions are based on experience and not just pixy dust dreams. In fact most of what I was talking about came true concerning Orlando, so perhaps you should lay off the name calling.

Is that right, ZEROBULLCHIP?

What came true about Orlando? I'll answer that question for you. The economy in the US crashed, namely, the housing market. In light of this, Solaire is mostly occupied and the other condo projects that were built are steadily filling up. Publix opened. CSS opened a few more venues. Orange Ave is opening and opened a few new restaurants as well. The Events Center broke ground. The new Interchange for 408, Phase I, is complete. 55W is waiting on signing a hotel operator before they do anything else. The Hilton proposal is also on standby. The cinema at PTP got their $$$ from the City and will open this Summer. Tradition Towers went to hell mainly b/c Steve Walsh's death.

And there's a whole lot of new residents in downtown Orlando split between the addition of Solaire, Vue, Dynetech, Camden, 101 Eola, Sanctuary, Jackson, & Star Tower. People still go out at night to the many restaurants and bars still here and new ones that have opened up recently. And people still work downtown, and last I saw, CRT is still moving forward.

So, you mentioned something about pixie dust that we're all sniffing in contrast to your personal view of how things really are?

Say hi to Eddie Vetter for me.

[Dale]

I'm tired of hearing about Eddie Vedder's 'rage.' The Seattle music scene sucks. It's nearly ruined music.

[MNiemann]

Originally Posted by Weisheit

The problem is, that's essentially everywhere save DT...

+ Baldwin Park, +Winter Park, but yeah everywhere else you're right.

Originally Posted by Weisheit

I honestly don't know, but, I'm willing to bet that that bus service is dreadful....Got a link for route and schedule?

I'd compare it to the Cable Car in San Fran, it goes on one limited route and only hits downtown's major points, but hey it's free. free doesn't even exist in san francisco.

here's the link: http://www.golynx.com/assets/userfiles/routemaps/31.pdf

obviously, you can see, they based the Lymmo on how many points of interest each stop is near and not necessarily on overall coverage. that link is also a good chance to see all the awesome stuff downtown has.