Northern Line extension to Battersea proposed - Page 2

Swede · July 16th, 2009, 09:03 AM

Is it just me, or did this idea (having one branch go to to Clapham Junction) already turn up in the other Northern Line thread some time ago?

cle · July 16th, 2009, 10:51 AM

Yep it did.

I've said it before there - it's not the ideal extension from Kennington as plenty of more deprived areas are underserved - but anything is better than nothing I think.

There's always the Bakerloo to be done, and if this filled up enough then you could possibly take the Victoria an extra stop to Herne Hill or two stops to Streatham - most people from the later either bus to Brixton or train to Victoria, so might not be a huge net gain in volumes?

And besides, it's quite exciting to have a new tube extension on the drawing board, and it would be very interesting for Clapham Junction.

Bob · July 16th, 2009, 03:20 PM

Continuing to Clapham makes a lot of sense. Does anyone know of intermediate stations between Battersea and Clapham being evaluated? One on the West side of the park looks logical.

streetquark · July 16th, 2009, 04:57 PM

'Battersea' east of Battersea Park station is the only one AFAIK and TfL will pay for an extension to Clapham Junction.

I think the line will go near Wandsworth Road and should go a little further north to be close to Vauxhall in case someone wants to pay for a future interchange.

Excluding Heathrow extensions, if it goes ahead, will this be the first extension of an old tuber line (i.e. not Victoria or Jubilee) not using former BR tracks since the Central line in 1946?

cle · July 16th, 2009, 05:50 PM

Think so - tragic isn't it!

I was going to suggest a Wandsworth Road station as being a good idea (ELL etc) but if Clapham High St has never really worked as ain interchange (and probably won't), I don't see why this would with a lower local catchment also.

Anyone seen/done any map mock-ups?

uk-highspeed · July 16th, 2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cle

Anyone seen/done any map mock-ups?

I'm working on one... probably another few days though.

sweek · July 16th, 2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cle

Think so - tragic isn't it!

I was going to suggest a Wandsworth Road station as being a good idea (ELL etc) but if Clapham High St has never really worked as ain interchange (and probably won't), I don't see why this would with a lower local catchment also.

Anyone seen/done any map mock-ups?

From London Reconnections

sarflonlad · July 16th, 2009, 09:44 PM

I presume the Char X branch will go on to Battersea? Anyone wanting City/Bank should change at Kennington.

Otherwise, capacity would be an issue...

They should really put in an interchange with Vauxhall too. That branch of the Northern line has the room. The Victoria Line has no more capacity and it would also help relieve the commuter lines in to Waterloo.

uk-highspeed · July 16th, 2009, 10:58 PM

Go here: http://londonreconnections.blogspot....ea%20extension - There is a photo of an official map showing the detail of the proposed extension.

(Post edited to avoid hot-linking to the image.)

streetquark · July 16th, 2009, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarflonlad

I presume the Char X branch will go on to Battersea? Anyone wanting City/Bank should change at Kennington.

AFAIK the new tunnels would come off the Kennington loop, so Charing X only.

cle · July 17th, 2009, 11:21 AM

Looks a bit odd, but I guess any additions do!

johnb78 · July 17th, 2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarflonlad

They should really put in an interchange with Vauxhall too. That branch of the Northern line has the room. The Victoria Line has no more capacity and it would also help relieve the commuter lines in to Waterloo.

LU have specifically vetoed an interchange at Vauxhall because the Victoria line has no capacity there, and they think that more people would go from Battersea to Vic destinations than would transfer from the Vic to the Northern there.

sweek · July 17th, 2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnb78

LU have specifically vetoed an interchange at Vauxhall because the Victoria line has no capacity there, and they think that more people would go from Battersea to Vic destinations than would transfer from the Vic to the Northern there.

Where does that information come from?

streetquark · July 17th, 2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnb78

LU have specifically vetoed an interchange at Vauxhall because the Victoria line has no capacity there, and they think that more people would go from Battersea to Vic destinations than would transfer from the Vic to the Northern there.

no need for an interchange but no need to send the route half way between Stockwell and Vauxhall.

It would still make sense to align the route close to Vauxhall in case they change their minds, i.e. if another scheme came along to change things. Chelney or a DLR extension from Victoria to Clapham Junction, LO getting high frequencies and interchanges or a crossrail from Victoria. These might alleviate the Vic, or result in passengers avoiding it altogether.

How many people from Clapham Junction will use the Vic to get to Green Park or Oxford Circus only? Surely those heading to Victoria only will keep to NR, those heading north of Oxford Circus would take the new Northern line branch up to Warren Street/Euston?

Bob · July 17th, 2009, 10:42 PM

The images on those posters are available, not that great quality on the updated battersea power station project website. The route is some way off the Victoria line tube at Vauxhall.

johnb78 · July 18th, 2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweek

Where does that information come from?

The developers.

RBRJ · August 6th, 2009, 08:39 AM

Mayors Question Time 07/09

Are you planning to propose that a scheme to extend the Northern Line to Battersea should be funded by Tax Increment Financing (TiF), and what do you see as the merits of this financing mechanism? – Caroline Pidgeon

The GLA has submitted a joint response with TfL and the London Boroughs of Lambeth and Wandsworth to the Government's recent invitation for pilot projects of tax increment financing in the UK. TiFs are a commonly used method of financing major infrastructure projects in US cities but are not possible in the UK under current Treasury rules. The government is considering testing the concept with some pilot projects and I believe the Northern Line extension is a good candidate for consideration. The merits of TiFs are that they allow for projects to be financed upfront by borrowing with repayments coming from the hypothecation of future NNDR receipts for a fixed period from the commercial development that the new infrastructure enables. It should be noted that a TiF would form only part of the financing of the Northern Line extension and that a S.106 levy on new development in the Opportunity Area would also be needed if the project were to proceed.

How confident is the Mayor that tax increment financing will allow TfL to extend the Northern Line to Battersea Power Station? – Richard Tracey

The extension of the Northern Line to Battersea Power Station would enable significant new development to take place in the Vauxhall Nine Elms Battersea Opportunity Area. As there is no provision in the TfL business plan to fund the extension it would need to be financed by contributions from the private sector development that would take place. Tax Increment Financing has the potential to make a significant contribution to the overall cost but is unlikely by itself to raise sufficient funds to pay for the whole extension scheme.

Not many comments have been posted regarding this method of paying for transport schemes. The idea was sourced from California, where transport schemes are developed and implemented rapidly.

Harry · August 6th, 2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBRJ

Not many comments have been posted regarding this method of paying for transport schemes. The idea was sourced from California, where transport schemes are developed and implemented rapidly.

The State of California may develop and implement schemes rapidly, but it is also bankrupt...so not the first place I would look to when trying to find workable financing schemes!

RBRJ · August 6th, 2009, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry

The State of California may develop and implement schemes rapidly, but it is also bankrupt...so not the first place I would look to when trying to find workable financing schemes!

Yes, but they still get them up and running, and has an extended period of time to pay the debt off. In fact the original underground system in the 19th Centuary was built and financed on a very close version to that used in California.

RBRJ · August 26th, 2009, 09:50 AM

I attach a link to Transport Briefing, which outlines Wandsworth Council's concern over a building development at Vauxhall. The impact on transport in the area and that the Crossrail levy put on new developments will not help improve transport locally. Indeed will not aid the mooted Battersea extension to NL.

http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/news/story?id=6162

July 16th, 2009, 09:03 AM	#21
Swede forumer #29 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: sol.III.eu.se.08 Posts: 2,581 Likes (Received): 180	Is it just me, or did this idea (having one branch go to to Clapham Junction) already turn up in the other Northern Line thread some time ago? __________________ Forumers met so far: Huopa, Nightsky, Jo, wolkenkrabber, ThisSideofSteinway, jacksom, New Jack City, LeCom, Ellatur, Jan, Dennis, Ace, Bardamu, AtlanticaC5, Ringil, Dysfunctional, stacey, karakhal, ch1le, Hviid, staff, kjetilab, Þróndeimr, queetz, FREKI, sander, Blue Viking, nomels, Mantas, ristov, Rafal_T, khaan, Chilenofuturista, Jonte Myra, safta20, AW, Pas, Jarmo K, IceCheese, Sideshow_Bob, sk, Ingenioren, Ayreonaut, Silver Creations, Hasse78, Svartmetall

July 16th, 2009, 10:58 PM	#29
uk-highspeed High Speed Rail Fan Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 94 Likes (Received): 0	Go here: http://londonreconnections.blogspot....ea%20extension - There is a photo of an official map showing the detail of the proposed extension. (Post edited to avoid hot-linking to the image.) Last edited by uk-highspeed; July 17th, 2009 at 09:50 AM.

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July 16th, 2009, 10:51 AM	#22
cle Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,039 Likes (Received): 45	Yep it did. I've said it before there - it's not the ideal extension from Kennington as plenty of more deprived areas are underserved - but anything is better than nothing I think. There's always the Bakerloo to be done, and if this filled up enough then you could possibly take the Victoria an extra stop to Herne Hill or two stops to Streatham - most people from the later either bus to Brixton or train to Victoria, so might not be a huge net gain in volumes? And besides, it's quite exciting to have a new tube extension on the drawing board, and it would be very interesting for Clapham Junction.

July 16th, 2009, 03:20 PM	#23
Bob Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: London Posts: 2,321 Likes (Received): 3	Continuing to Clapham makes a lot of sense. Does anyone know of intermediate stations between Battersea and Clapham being evaluated? One on the West side of the park looks logical.

July 16th, 2009, 04:57 PM	#24
streetquark Registered User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 699 Likes (Received): 0	'Battersea' east of Battersea Park station is the only one AFAIK and TfL will pay for an extension to Clapham Junction. I think the line will go near Wandsworth Road and should go a little further north to be close to Vauxhall in case someone wants to pay for a future interchange. Excluding Heathrow extensions, if it goes ahead, will this be the first extension of an old tuber line (i.e. not Victoria or Jubilee) not using former BR tracks since the Central line in 1946?

July 16th, 2009, 05:50 PM	#25
cle Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,039 Likes (Received): 45	Think so - tragic isn't it! I was going to suggest a Wandsworth Road station as being a good idea (ELL etc) but if Clapham High St has never really worked as ain interchange (and probably won't), I don't see why this would with a lower local catchment also. Anyone seen/done any map mock-ups?

July 16th, 2009, 09:44 PM	#28
sarflonlad Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: London Posts: 1,133 Likes (Received): 16	I presume the Char X branch will go on to Battersea? Anyone wanting City/Bank should change at Kennington. Otherwise, capacity would be an issue... They should really put in an interchange with Vauxhall too. That branch of the Northern line has the room. The Victoria Line has no more capacity and it would also help relieve the commuter lines in to Waterloo.

July 17th, 2009, 11:21 AM	#31
cle Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,039 Likes (Received): 45	Looks a bit odd, but I guess any additions do!

July 17th, 2009, 10:42 PM	#35
Bob Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: London Posts: 2,321 Likes (Received): 3	The images on those posters are available, not that great quality on the updated battersea power station project website. The route is some way off the Victoria line tube at Vauxhall.

August 6th, 2009, 08:39 AM	#37
RBRJ Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 559 Likes (Received): 0	Mayors Question Time 07/09 Are you planning to propose that a scheme to extend the Northern Line to Battersea should be funded by Tax Increment Financing (TiF), and what do you see as the merits of this financing mechanism? – Caroline Pidgeon The GLA has submitted a joint response with TfL and the London Boroughs of Lambeth and Wandsworth to the Government's recent invitation for pilot projects of tax increment financing in the UK. TiFs are a commonly used method of financing major infrastructure projects in US cities but are not possible in the UK under current Treasury rules. The government is considering testing the concept with some pilot projects and I believe the Northern Line extension is a good candidate for consideration. The merits of TiFs are that they allow for projects to be financed upfront by borrowing with repayments coming from the hypothecation of future NNDR receipts for a fixed period from the commercial development that the new infrastructure enables. It should be noted that a TiF would form only part of the financing of the Northern Line extension and that a S.106 levy on new development in the Opportunity Area would also be needed if the project were to proceed. How confident is the Mayor that tax increment financing will allow TfL to extend the Northern Line to Battersea Power Station? – Richard Tracey The extension of the Northern Line to Battersea Power Station would enable significant new development to take place in the Vauxhall Nine Elms Battersea Opportunity Area. As there is no provision in the TfL business plan to fund the extension it would need to be financed by contributions from the private sector development that would take place. Tax Increment Financing has the potential to make a significant contribution to the overall cost but is unlikely by itself to raise sufficient funds to pay for the whole extension scheme. Not many comments have been posted regarding this method of paying for transport schemes. The idea was sourced from California, where transport schemes are developed and implemented rapidly.

August 26th, 2009, 09:50 AM	#40
RBRJ Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 559 Likes (Received): 0	I attach a link to Transport Briefing, which outlines Wandsworth Council's concern over a building development at Vauxhall. The impact on transport in the area and that the Crossrail levy put on new developments will not help improve transport locally. Indeed will not aid the mooted Battersea extension to NL. http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/news/story?id=6162