Northern Line extension to Battersea proposed

[Garth38]

Does anyone else think the wrong tube line is being extended to Battersea?

I know it would be a massive engineering project but in my opinion the Waterloo and City Line should be extended through Battersea and on to Clapham Junction. Perhaps in the north it could be extended to at least Liverpool St too making a nice shuttle line linking key stations across the city.

An extension of the Northern Line’s West End Branch should head towards South East London not South West.

[TedStriker]

Originally Posted by Garth38

Does anyone else think the wrong tube line is being extended to Battersea?

I know it would be a massive engineering project but in my opinion the Waterloo and City Line should be extended through Battersea and on to Clapham Junction. Perhaps in the north it could be extended to at least Liverpool St too making a nice shuttle line linking key stations across the city.

An extension of the Northern Line’s West End Branch should head towards South East London not South West.

Agreed 100 per cent.

I thought the same about the Northern Line when reading about the routes for the Bakerloo Line extensions. South London could do with both.

So yes, while re-jigging the Water'City complex at Waterloo would be a pain, it would be the best option for Battersea and Clapham.

[cle]

Yep - to be honest South London could probably do most with shortish extensions of each line - to spread out capacity and demand.

So at a minimum
Victoria line to Herne Hill (one stop, mainly for the loop)
Northern line to Camberwell Green, Denmark Hill, Herne Hill, Dulwich Village and Forest Hill.
Bakerloo - at least to Lewisham, Ladywell and Catford Bridge via Old Kent Rd and Peckham.

Waterloo and City - who knows. Isn't it very difficult to extend at both ends? Points odd ways, in the way of other lines, too short stations to make much bigger (or even add Blackfriars).

In an idea world, I'd link it between Moorgate and Bank:

Waterloo - Bank - Moorgate...Highbury & Islington - Finsbury Park and with cash extend to Crouch End and Muswell Hill. And run it 7 days. All Moorgate GN services transferred to Kings Cross or Thameslink.

[Garth38]

I would extend the W&C Line in stages.

The first stage would see the line being extended to Clapham Junction in the South (with an interchange at Vauxhall and stop at Battersea) and then in the north to Liverpool St. In the middle I would build a new station at Blackfriairs. This would mean five of London’s key station that weren’t connected before would now be linked together while still serving and increasing the line’s original duty of ferrying commuters from South of the river to The City.

The second stage would see the line extended to suburbs, with my preferred options of Chingford in the north and Strawberry Hill in the south via the Hounslow loop. After Liverpool St the line would call at Shoreditch High St and Bethnal Green Tube Station but in separate tunnels to the central line. From there it would through Hackney with stations at London Fields, Hackney Downs and Clapton, Lea Bridge Rd before emerging just before Walthamstow St James Street and taking over the Chingford Metro Service. The mainline stations in Hackney such as London Fields & Clapton could close due to the new LU service and so allowing extra capacity on the West Anglia routes’.

Then in the South, the line would continue underground from Clapham Junction with stations at Wandsworth Town, East Putney and Barnes before taking over the Hownslow loop and finally terminating perhaps at Strawberry Hill. Again the same principle could apply here, with the extension of the W&C Line mainline stations such as Wandsworth Town could be closed due to the new LU services. The old mainline service destination would not change meaning commuter patterns would not be disrupted and it would free up capacity for mainline services.

Finally I wouldn’t create a new elaborate name for the line. I’d just rename it The City Line but if you wanted to play with stations names the Waterpool Line would work.

[sweek]

THe Waterloo and City simply isn't getting extended. It'd be easier and even cheaper to build a new full-size line between Waterloo and Bank then to extended the platforms, move the depot, fix the fact that the ends point in the wrong directions for extensions etc. etc. on the existing one. The W&C works as a shuttle, but not in any other way.

[RBRJ]

Originally Posted by sweek

THe Waterloo and City simply isn't getting extended. It'd be easier and even cheaper to build a new full-size line between Waterloo and Bank then to extended the platforms, move the depot, fix the fact that the ends point in the wrong directions for extensions etc. etc. on the existing one. The W&C works as a shuttle, but not in any other way.

Where there is the will there is a way!

[sweek]

Originally Posted by RBRJ

Where there is the will there is a way!

Yes but why extend when it's easier and cheaper to create a whole new and higher capacity line?

[RBRJ]

Yes. But you do have W & C in existance already. Peolple naturally respond to what is available, and would surely use it. As use increased, then thoughts of a line parallel or shadowing part or whole of the route would be justified.

[Garth38]

Originally Posted by sweek

Yes but why extend when it's easier and cheaper to create a whole new and higher capacity line?

What would you do with the line then? (if anything)

[Sesquip]

Originally Posted by RBRJ

Yes. But you do have W & C in existance already. Peolple naturally respond to what is available, and would surely use it. As use increased, then thoughts of a line parallel or shadowing part or whole of the route would be justified.

Just because it's there doesn't mean it's useful. The existing stations are far too small for a longer line. Extending those stations would be very expensive, due to all the underground constraints. It would mean closing the line.

The option has been done to death. It is not sensible. Please people, let it go!

[streetquark]

Here and elsewhere I've answered these points and on one has come back so if anyone should leave it it's the people who say it can't be done!

See below for how it can be done.

Originally Posted by cle

Yep - to be honest South London could probably do most with shortish extensions of each line - to spread out capacity and demand.

So at a minimum
Victoria line to Herne Hill (one stop, mainly for the loop)
Northern line to Camberwell Green, Denmark Hill, Herne Hill, Dulwich Village and Forest Hill.
Bakerloo - at least to Lewisham, Ladywell and Catford Bridge via Old Kent Rd and Peckham.

Waterloo and City - who knows. Isn't it very difficult to extend at both ends? Points odd ways, in the way of other lines, too short stations to make much bigger (or even add Blackfriars).

In an idea world, I'd link it between Moorgate and Bank:

Waterloo - Bank - Moorgate...Highbury & Islington - Finsbury Park and with cash extend to Crouch End and Muswell Hill. And run it 7 days. All Moorgate GN services transferred to Kings Cross or Thameslink.

Oooh Northern Heights I like that - my old stomping ground!

The Victoria could probably justify a proper Croydon extension if the other South London ones get built.

Re: Waterloo & City -

It's not only expensive but maybe impossible to put a new SW/NE route through the city due to what's already there. Better to salvage 90% of the line and use it.

Just ditch the u-bend south of Stamford Street (IMAX) and head due south without rising in gradient through Waterloo station. Simples! Then you can go wherever you like...

In the north it's easier as you can come off the old alignment somewhere around Mansion House. Head east, i.e. diverge to the right and you can cross the NL and DLR above both. You can then go north-east as long as you don't do so too early as you have to avoid the CL (i.e. further east you can go below or above it, or just stay south of it as it heads north-east too) and you have to avoid a lot of vaults and skyscrapers between Bank and Liverpool Street. alternatively head north by curving to the left of the old alignment and you should have enough space to go under the CL with enough clearance. Then it's probably Moorgate.

Are there many gradient and curve problems between Stamford Street and Mansion House?

Blackfriars would be useful. Memory serves some sort of intent to put a station in anyway, presumably east or south of the curve there.

The other thing is whether you would enlarge the tunnels or stick to tube size? Enlarging and you might just as well make a new route, though an existing tube through central London is worth its weight in gold given all the things down below getting in the way of new lines.

It would be a bit of a waste to use the old NCL from Moorgate for tube trains - I'd extend the W&C past Liverpool Street somewhere if it stays tube-sized.

Back to Battersea/Clapham Junction - I'd have the W&C for City connection and extend the DLR Victoria extension to Clapham Junction for West End connection.

[sweek]

Originally Posted by Garth38

What would you do with the line then? (if anything)

I wouldn't do anything with it. Maybe re-signal and improve the frequency that way, but the W&C does exactly what it should do; shuttle passengers from the busiest commuter station to the heart of the City.
I would:

* serve inner south-east London with the Bakerloo line (Camberwell, New Cross, Lewisham, some trains extended towards Hayes)
* south-west London with Crossrail 2 going Victoria - Chelsea - Battersea - Clapham Junction - Putney - Wimbledon)
* have the Northern line go Kennington - Camberwell - Herne Hill - West Dulwich - Sydenham - Beckenham, to serve outer south-east London.
* Victoria to Herne Hill only for interchange with Northern

[streetquark]

Originally Posted by sweek

* serve inner south-east London with the Bakerloo line (Camberwell, New Cross, Lewisham, some trains extended towards Hayes)
* south-west London with Crossrail 2 going Victoria - Chelsea - Battersea - Clapham Junction - Putney - Wimbledon)
* have the Northern line go Kennington - Camberwell - Herne Hill - West Dulwich - Sydenham - Beckenham, to serve outer south-east London.
* Victoria to Herne Hill only for interchange with Northern

How about:

Northern to Loughborough Junction, Streatham Hill, Streatham, Norbury Croydon - so one line can head south and through Streatham but not via Brixton so as not to overload the Victoria.

A new Camberwell station on Thameslink - so the western end of that big railway-less area is served.

Victoria to Herne Hill, West Dulwich, Sydenham, Beckenham - Hopefully justified once other lines extended (perhaps double up Brixton-Victoria, then Park Lane, Edgware Road, Finchley Road).

Bakerloo can go Old Kent Road, New Cross gate, Lewisham, Hayes, Biggin Hill - serving the eastern end of the big railway-less area.

DLR to Grove Park, Bromley north then Bromley South - DLR but through service for Bromley North.

Waterloo & City can go Waterloo, Victoria, Fulham, Barnes, Richmond...

[TedStriker]

Originally Posted by streetquark

Waterloo & City can go Waterloo, Victoria, Fulham, Barnes, Richmond...

I'd fund all of your proposals except for the one for the Waterloo & City. I'd like to keep it as a novelty line.

[streetquark]

How about the u-bend south of Stamford Street into the old Waterloo station kept as a tourist atraction?

You could do it up old-style with new trains and everything.

[TedStriker]

Originally Posted by streetquark

How about the u-bend south of Stamford Street into the old Waterloo station kept as a tourist atraction?

You could do it up old-style with new trains and everything.

I'll say yes, even though I confess I have no idea what you're referring to when you say the u-bend. I've just had a look on Google's aerial photo of the area, and I've gone through in my brain the 20-years worth of experience I've had walking around that area, and I just can't think of what you mean.

Please enlighten me.

[streetquark]

The Waterloo & City line curves east under the IMAX at the end of Stamford Street then doubles back on itself as it comes to a halt under Waterloo station. You won't find it on an aerial map as it's underground.

[TedStriker]

Silly me. I thought the u-bend was referring to something else.

[streetquark]

Well it is called the Drain

[TedStriker]

I think it has character. Not only is it bizarre for having just two stops, it also offers passengers a bit of a roller-coaster ride, as it twists and turns it's way along.

London's Tourist Board ought to promote it more.

It ought to organise special trains at the weekends and nights, with the main lights switched off and replaced by strobe lights, dry ice blown through the carriages, and to top it off, all sorts of sound effects and scary voices blasted through loudspeakers.