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Old May 3rd, 2006, 04:51 AM   #41
xDieselJockx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexicon506
Everything they're building there looks like a resort!!! It's all starting to blend together. Huge attempts at building fake cities are everywhere in the UAE. I've seen pictures of the real Dubai, and I would be ashamed to be living in a city whose character is being killed by a new monstrosity being built every day. I respect projects like the Burj Dubai (the tower, not the complex around it) because it has good architecture and builds an original Dubai character. But I simply can't stand the waste of billions of dollars on these horrible Disney resorts in the desert.

If they have an overflowing money to realize their dream. Why not? The only problem in those countries like UAE is that, their people will not know how it feels like to work and be compasionate towards other people (not that they are totally heartless or anything) since they pay all these other people from all over the world to do the work for them. So, none of them care for education and other important things in life.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 05:15 AM   #42
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The terminal layout reminds me of ATL
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 05:18 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lexicon506
Everything they're building there looks like a resort!!! It's all starting to blend together. Huge attempts at building fake cities are everywhere in the UAE. I've seen pictures of the real Dubai, and I would be ashamed to be living in a city whose character is being killed by a new monstrosity being built every day. I respect projects like the Burj Dubai (the tower, not the complex around it) because it has good architecture and builds an original Dubai character. But I simply can't stand the waste of billions of dollars on these horrible Disney resorts in the desert.
Well, whether or not one agrees with the approach, the point is that Dubai's oil reserves run out within 50 years, so they have to find ways to diversify the economy now. What's the difference between what Dubai is doing now and established entrepots like HK? A couple of centuries ago, I seem to recall the British dismissing HK as nothing more than a barren rock!

What's happening in Dubai now is nothing short of incredible. While there are documented problems with low-cost labor, I've got a number of friends who have moved to Dubai for work, and they're enjoying it immensely.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 06:08 AM   #44
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Dubai's wealth is amazing and I hope they're successful at creating a diverse economy. That being said....FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! IF THEY HAVE SO MUCH MONEY TO SPEND WHY CAN'T THEY AFFORD SOME GOOD CITY PLANNERS!?

With the money they have they could create some great places to live, instead they're building what looks to be the world's biggest subdivision.

Why build a city around the perimeter of an airport? They have miles of blank desert to build on. Why not design a great city and put the airport a few miles outside of the city? They have endless featureless space.

Also, if the city is close to the coast which it appears to be, why not have a waterfront city and a seaport, since they're creating a diverse economy?

Does anyone know what industries UAE is trying to invest in to diversify their economy with?
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 02:23 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
A couple of centuries ago, I seem to recall the British dismissing HK as nothing more than a barren rock!
Queen Victoria supposedly dismissed it as a barren rock. However the British Navy commander, Captain Charles Elliot, clearly did see the potential of Hong Kong's deep water port. Otherwise he wouldn't have seized it in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
What's the difference between what Dubai is doing now and established entrepots like HK?
The difference is that Hong Kong does things that are profitable and economically viable. It always has done. Dubai uses the last of its oil money to do things for ego. For example Burj Dubai is not a commerical building. It simply doesn't offer enough space to justify the huge expenditure in building it. By contrast Hong Kong's ICC is commerical. I suppose you could argue that the Bur Dubai is a nationwide loss-leader - an attraction spectacular enough to build up Dubai's tourism economy. However I think that's a risky strategy given how many other similar "attractions" are being unveiled all over the world.

I spoke to a retail consultant who is regularly called to Dubai to consult on the new malls. He told me that almost none of the gleaming marble clad malls in Dubai make money. They are all built to satisfy the ego of the rich and competitive families that develop them.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 05:41 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Queen Victoria supposedly dismissed it as a barren rock.
Actually it was Lord Palmerston, Queen Victoria's foreign secretary that gave HK Island that name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
However the British Navy commander, Captain Charles Elliot, clearly did see the potential of Hong Kong's deep water port. Otherwise he wouldn't have seized it in the first place.
Debatable. At that time, most of the trading action was taking place in Canton. HK Island was taken by the British during the First Opium War as a response to the seizure of opium stocks from overseas traders. While there **may** have been some foresight there (any proof? or is this hindsight?), it is well documented that most of official Britain certainly didn't see the value of this new acquisition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
The difference is that Hong Kong does things that are profitable and economically viable. It always has done. Dubai uses the last of its oil money to do things for ego. For example Burj Dubai is not a commerical building. It simply doesn't offer enough space to justify the huge expenditure in building it. By contrast Hong Kong's ICC is commerical. I suppose you could argue that the Bur Dubai is a nationwide loss-leader - an attraction spectacular enough to build up Dubai's tourism economy. However I think that's a risky strategy given how many other similar "attractions" are being unveiled all over the world.

I spoke to a retail consultant who is regularly called to Dubai to consult on the new malls. He told me that almost none of the gleaming marble clad malls in Dubai make money. They are all built to satisfy the ego of the rich and competitive families that develop them.
Actually, HK was still relatively poor even as recently as 30 years ago. HK's success is due to a number of factors -- hard work and entrepreneurial spirit among them. The legacy of a strong civil service and rule of law was another. The opening of China to the world also created tremendous opportunities for growth -- something that was unimaginable in the 1970s.

Singapore is another example of a small city-state with no natural resources that has managed to flourish. Yet the approach has arguably been different from HK (and in some senses closer to Dubai), with the government playing a much more proactive role.

I don't doubt that many of the gleaming malls in Dubai are loss-making -- now. But to dismiss its diversification strategy is premature. The real test will be to come back in 10-15 years to see the results.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 05:49 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
Debatable. At that time, most of the trading action was taking place in Canton. HK Island was taken by the British during the First Opium War as a response to the seizure of opium stocks from overseas traders. While there **may** have been some foresight there (any proof? or is this hindsight?), it is well documented that most of official Britain certainly didn't see the value of this new acquisition.
Palmerston was right to dismiss Hong Kong's immediate value. It was indeed "a barren rock with nary a house upon it" just as he said. However it's obvious why a naval captain like Elliot, and also the British merchant sailors whose interests he was advancing, would appreciate the value of a deep water port more readily than a foreign secretary. Sir Henry Pottinger, who became Hong Kong's first governor, was also convinced of its eventual value right from the outset:

When the British discovered Hong Kong in the 1800s—her merchant-explorers seeking to obtain Chinese tea- -they immediately recognized its value and set up trading posts there to be near Canton.... Britain received Hong Kong Island "in perpetuity" so that her merchants might have "a port whereat they may careen and refit their ships." (1)

In defense of his actions, Pottinger wrote: "...the retention of Hong Kong is the only single point in which I intentionally exceeded my modified instructions, but every single hour I have passed in this superb country [China] has convinced me of the necessity and desirability of our possessing such a settlement as an emporium for our trade and a place from which Her Majesty’s subjects in China may be alike protected and controlled." (2)

(1) and (2) G. B. Endacott, A History of Hong Kong, 2nd ed. (Hong Kong: Oxford University Press, 1964,1988), p. 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
Singapore is another example of a small city-state with no natural resources that has managed to flourish. Yet the approach has arguably been different from HK (and in some senses closer to Dubai), with the government playing a much more proactive role.
Singapore's location, on some of the most strategic straits in the world, is a huge "natural resource". Sir Stamford Raffles, like Sir Henry Pottinger in Hong Kong, was an experienced merchant with the East India Company and recognised the strategic commerical value of a deep water port in that location from the outset.

Last edited by Monkey; May 3rd, 2006 at 06:14 PM.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 05:51 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Bertez
The terminal layout reminds me of ATL

Yeah, just like Atlanta. It seems like a pretty efficient layout to have.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 05:56 PM   #49
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If any of you have ever been to Dubai you will know what a big role shopping plays in Dubai's lifestyle. Malls like the City Center are jam packed with people even in the middle of the day on a weekday! So let's not talk out of our asses shall we? I grew up in Dubai and I've spent over 20 years in this city watching it grow. Just an FYI before you start correcting me.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 06:01 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy
If any of you have ever been to Dubai you will know what a big role shopping plays in Dubai's lifestyle. Malls like the City Center are jam packed with people even in the middle of the day on a weekday! So let's not talk out of our asses shall we? I grew up in Dubai and I've spent over 20 years in this city watching it grow. Just an FYI before you start correcting me.
I am not talking out of my arse. I am quoting a professional retail consultant who is hired to analyse the finances of malls and retail outlets in Dubai. Maybe the City Center mall is profitable but most are not. Even if they are packed with people they are not necessarily buying. Many of them may be just sheltering from the heat in the cool air conditioning.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 06:13 PM   #51
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Yes because the entire city is deprived of air conditioninig so they have to go to the malls... there's no point in arguing with someone who doesnt know the first thing about Dubai and its mall lifestyle. Dubai is a city of malls... not only City Center but even malls like Mercato, Bur Juman and Mall of the Emriates are packed with people... now you're telling me people are going to drive for half an hour to Mall of the Emirates to get shelter from the sun? Looks like you're talking out of your "Arse" after all Mr. Professional Retail Consultant
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 06:21 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy
Yes because the entire city is deprived of air conditioninig so they have to go to the malls... there's no point in arguing with someone who doesnt know the first thing about Dubai and its mall lifestyle. Dubai is a city of malls... not only City Center but even malls like Mercato, Bur Juman and Mall of the Emriates are packed with people... now you're telling me people are going to drive for half an hour to Mall of the Emirates to get shelter from the sun? Looks like you're talking out of your "Arse" after all Mr. Professional Retail Consultant
Well perhaps you had better tell him that. I'm sure a professional who spends his entire working life crunching data on retail finances will be keen to be enlightened by your obviously superior knowledge.

And yes people will travel half an hour to a mall for its air conditioning. That isn't to say that they don't have air conditioning in their homes, or that this this is the only reason they come to the mall, but they cannot socialise so easily in their homes. In cities in cooler parts of the world people wander round the shops and stop for a chat and a coffee with friends in shops and cafes strung along city streets. In Dubai, as with many other hot countries, they go to malls instead. There's nothing particularly extraordinary or surprising about what I'm saying. Indeed your own description of this "mall culture" in Dubai supports my point. However there are too many malls chasing too few customers. He told me that the most upmarket malls are the least profitable. Many of them are built merely to make the residential apartments built in the same complex more desirable addresses. Why the hostility?
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 06:32 PM   #53
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Agreed you might be a professional.. but you don't know shit about Dubai so let's leave it at that. As long as you go on giving your opinion about Dubai and its lifestyle just by assuming you know the lifestyle there, you are infact .... talking out of your ass.

Just an FYI, almost everyone I know in Dubai does his/her shopping mainly from shopping malls. It's a culture that has developed in Dubai over the last 10-15 years. Initially it did start with trying to hang out in a "cool place" but it's not the same anymore. Do you have any idea what the shop rents are like in these malls? And still you'll find malls where there are not one but two Mexx stores for example. Personally, myself and all my friends shop from these malls. Various reasons: good quality, variety of choice under one roof, excellent place to hang out, right in the middle of the city, easy access.

Unless you've lived the culture, don't knock it. Ask the people who have lived in Dubai for several years... not visitors or tourists.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 07:10 PM   #54
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^ I didn't say I was a professional. I said he was a professional. And he certainly does know shit about Dubai's retail malls. He goes there all the time on business as a retail consultant. Sorry but I bet he knows a damn sight more about their financial health than you. And what does having high rents or two branches of Mexx have to do with anything? Are you trying to convince me that these malls are turning profits after all? It doesn't matter if everyone in Dubai does all their shopping in malls. If there are too many malls chasing too few customers then they won't be profitable. If consumers don't spend enough to pay back on their high construction costs then they won't be profitable. It's as simple as that. And I am not knocking Dubai's culture. Where have I done that? I may question the commercial viability of some of its projects, including this airport city, but that is not an attack on the culture of the place. I mean just look at this project... who the hell wants to live next to a massive busy airport? Why on earth are they building residentials inland instead of next to the sea which looks empty on the renderings? And sorry but I don't belive Burj Dubai will ever be a profitable building. I don't believe that the rents will ever pay back on the huge capital expenditure required to build it. It's just too skinny to offer enough space to pay for its construction costs. It may justify its expense if it makes Dubai an important tourist destination - if they stay a day or two longer to see it and similar attractions rather than just a few hours shopping between flights, but, in and of itself, I think that Burj Dubai, like the upmarket malls, is an exercise in egotistical spending. It's not commerical. It can only be justified as some kind of "loss leader" for Dubai's economy as a whole. Likewise the upmarket malls can only be justified as "loss leaders" for the luxury apartment developments above them.
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Old May 3rd, 2006, 09:24 PM   #55
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Why does the airport link to Dubai International Airport? Couldn't they just expand DXB?
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Old May 4th, 2006, 02:38 AM   #56
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Well from pics that I have seen, DXB is surrounded by development.......so there would be very little room to add to the number of runways that they have
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Old May 4th, 2006, 03:43 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
In defense of his actions, Pottinger wrote: "...the retention of Hong Kong is the only single point in which I intentionally exceeded my modified instructions, but every single hour I have passed in this superb country [China] has convinced me of the necessity and desirability of our possessing such a settlement as an emporium for our trade and a place from which Her Majesty’s subjects in China may be alike protected and controlled." (2)
LOL, hindsight is always 20-20, but to say someone 'recognized' the potential of a location is usually a nice bit of spin. What was Pottinger to say? He goofed up? As I said, even up to the 70s, both HK and Singapore were far from the wealthy entrepots you see today.

In any case, your logic also applies to Dubai. It's on an important trade route. The government has set-up industry-specific free zones to encourage foreign investment. The growth of Emirates have bolstered air links. More importantly, Dubai's growth track stands in stark relief to a region marked by instability. I think I'd want much more than the opinion of a single sector-based 'expert' before knocking an entire strategy. What is Dubai's alternative? Wait until the oil runs out?

Anyway, I suggest we get back on topic. Let's see if Dubai's diversification strategy stands the test of time. Everything you or I say is pure speculation.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 05:28 AM   #58
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All I have to say is that what goes up must come down. One day, Dubai is going to loose it's allure and all that will be left are a bunch of empty towers. They're relying too heavily on the uncertain future.

Also, does Dubai really need that big of an airport? I doubt it has that much passenger traffic.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 05:33 AM   #59
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Whose the genius who put that together? Who would golf near an airport? Those loud planes would serve as a major distrction while lining up a putt.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 05:48 AM   #60
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What the heck is an airport city? Someplace frequent flyers can stay and be ready to fly anytime? Where the whole aviation staff lives?
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