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Old May 4th, 2006, 02:52 PM   #61
Monkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
LOL, hindsight is always 20-20, but to say someone 'recognized' the potential of a location is usually a nice bit of spin. What was Pottinger to say? He goofed up?
Pottinger said that at the time. He said that long before he was proven right by Hong Kong's actuall success. You asked for evidence that tghe British recognised the potential of Hong Kong and I have given you plenty. What's your argument? That Elliot and Pottinger chose Hong Kong site at random? That they just put a pin on the map and were merely proven lucky by history? I think that's a churlish failure to give due credit. They were experienced sailors and merchants and they chose the site well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
As I said, even up to the 70s, both HK and Singapore were far from the wealthy entrepots you see today.
Nonsense. Both Hong Kong and Singapore were successful trading ports long before the 1970s. The local Chinese may not have enjoyed standards of living comparable to the West until the 1970s (though they were certainly far higher than on Mainland China) but the cities themselves were clearly successful trading entrepots long before that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
In any case, your logic also applies to Dubai. It's on an important trade route.
Yes but that specific location is not as strategic as Singapore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
The government has set-up industry-specific free zones to encourage foreign investment. The growth of Emirates have bolstered air links. More importantly, Dubai's growth track stands in stark relief to a region marked by instability. I think I'd want much more than the opinion of a single sector-based 'expert' before knocking an entire strategy. What is Dubai's alternative? Wait until the oil runs out?
I have never attacked Dubai's entire strategy or suggested it should wait until the oil runs out. I think Dubai's leadershp and broad strategy is very impressive. However I did say that many of its projects are not driven by commerce but by ego. The upmarket retail malls lose money. Burj Dubai will not earn high enough rents to justify its construction costs. This airport city project looks very badly planned (that's already three sectors BTW....). If those are just office buildings and hotels then it just about makes sense but if it's residential property then I think it's crazy. Why would anyone want to live next to a huge airport? Why didn't they build the residential property along the nearby stretch of empty coastline instead? Next time read what I actually say and respond to points that I actually make.

Last edited by Monkey; May 4th, 2006 at 03:05 PM.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 03:50 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Next time read what I actually say and respond to points that I actually make.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

I'm not the one who, based on the "opinion" of one retail "expert", raised the issue of, ummm, ego-driven mall construction. As I recall, this was a response challenging an earlier post I made comparing Dubai's strategy to what HK has done.

I've noticed you tend to view the world in black and white. To say that ego has had nothing to do with development in HK is farcical. If that were true, how do you explain HSBC spending HK$5.2 billion in 1985 to build its headquarters (at that time, the world's most expensive building)? Supply-side economics???

I could go on, about my personal experience living in HK during the 70s, and my GF's experience growing up in Singapore, but why bother? In your mind, your "expert" opinions will always trump my personal experiences anyway.

My ONLY point here has been that there are some interesting similarities between what Dubai is trying to create and how HK and Singapore have evolved as entrepots.

I've said all I'm going to say. Since you're inclined to try to get in the last word anyway, fire away...
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Old May 4th, 2006, 04:05 PM   #63
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Wow, they really have the money to build such structures that arent really needed!
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Old May 4th, 2006, 04:22 PM   #64
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monkey is getting pwned all over this thread
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Old May 4th, 2006, 04:23 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy

Is this a joke?
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Old May 4th, 2006, 05:05 PM   #66
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This ain't a joke european.

The Dubai World Central, formerly Jebel Ali Airport City, is not a joke. The Dubai government are seriously considering building this monster out of scratch in 15 years time. By 2020 this thing will dwarf anything ever built in the history of aviation. The main concept with this project is to provide infrastructure to provide the needs of Dubai's increasing aviation needs through 2050 and beyond.

My complaint in this project is that, even with the foresight of the prospects for 2050 economics and demand, it is just too God damn big..no HUGE, GARGANTUAN, BEYOND, UBER, OUT-OF-THIS-WORLD!
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Old May 4th, 2006, 05:47 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...
Hardly. I have responded to your points. By contrast you seem to have made massive assumptions about mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
I'm not the one who, based on the "opinion" of one retail "expert", raised the issue of, ummm, ego-driven mall construction. As I recall, this was a response challenging an earlier post I made comparing Dubai's strategy to what HK has done.
Yes and I repeat my earlier point. The difference is that Hong Kong's development pays for itself. Dubai's development is often driven by ego and underwritten by guaranteed oil revenue. And the consultant most certainly is an expert on Dubai's mall finances. That is his work. You have no expertise on Dubai's mall finances whatsoever and neither has anyone else on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
I've noticed you tend to view the world in black and white. To say that ego has had nothing to do with development in HK is farcical. If that were true, how do you explain HSBC spending HK$5.2 billion in 1985 to build its headquarters (at that time, the world's most expensive building)? Supply-side economics???
But HSBC was building its own corporate HQ. They were not a developer renting space to tenants. HSBC is one of the most profitable banks in the world. If they wish to splurge on their building then that's their concern. Now what is the "grey" angle that I am missing here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
I could go on, about my personal experience living in HK during the 70s, and my GF's experience growing up in Singapore, but why bother? In your mind, your "expert" opinions will always trump my personal experiences anyway.
If any of these "growing-up experiences" have any relevance whatsoever to any point made on this thread then please enlighten me. Otherwise don't bother as they have nothing to do with the discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deej
My ONLY point here has been that there are some interesting similarities between what Dubai is trying to create and how HK and Singapore have evolved as entrepots.
And my point is that there are important differences too. Hong Kong and Singapore were never able to develop speculatively to anything like the same degree as they were never able to underwite their investments with guaranteed oil revenue. They had to engage in activities that were profitable and commercially viable from the outset. Many of Dubai's projects are only financially/economically viable if perceived as gigantic loss leaders.

Last edited by Monkey; May 4th, 2006 at 07:45 PM.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 05:51 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mookieflookie
monkey is getting pwned all over this thread
Oh bullshit!! Please show me any argument where I have been "owned"?
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Old May 4th, 2006, 05:55 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Why on earth are they building residentials inland instead of next to the sea which looks empty on the renderings?
Like I said, you don't know much about Dubai do you? But that doesn't stop you from passing comments like you are a Dubai native.

The reason the shore line looks empty in the render is because that's what it is.. just a render! Why don't you have a look here to see what's coming up on Dubai's shoreline.. it will definitely give you a picture of Dubai's plans..

Map of Dubai's projects (High resolution - almost 2 Megs)

And here are some links to SSC Dubai's waterfront project threads:

Dubai Waterfront

Palm Jumeirah

Palm Deira

Palm Jebel Ali

Jumeirah Lake Towers (75 High rise towers)

Dubai Marina (200 High-rise towers - largest marina in the world)

Offshore developments

The World - 300 islands in the shape of the world map
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Old May 4th, 2006, 05:59 PM   #70
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When I looked at the renders there was only one thing that came up in my mind: what a totally fake and booring city!
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Old May 4th, 2006, 05:59 PM   #71
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Six 4.5km runways!?!?!?!?!?
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:00 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtAkAw
Wow, they really have the money to build such structures that arent really needed!
Precisely....
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:06 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy
Like I said, you don't know much about Dubai do you? But that doesn't stop you from passing comments like you are a Dubai native.

The reason the shore line looks empty in the render is because that's what it is.. just a render! Why don't you have a look here to see what's coming up on Dubai's shoreline.. it will definitely give you a picture of Dubai's plans..

Map of Dubai's projects (High resolution - almost 2 Megs)

And here are some links to SSC Dubai's waterfront project threads:

Dubai Waterfront

Palm Jumeirah

Palm Deira

Palm Jebel Ali

Jumeirah Lake Towers (75 High rise towers)

Dubai Marina (200 High-rise towers - largest marina in the world)

Offshore developments

The World - 300 islands in the shape of the world map
Blah blah blah.... as if I don't know about the projects along Dubai's coastline!! How are they relevant to my point that building residentials next to a massive airport looks to me like the height of bad planning? Tell me something Krazy. Are you filled with an urgent desire to buy a residential property right next to a massive airport? What kind of person is? You are just hypersensitive to any kind of criticism of Dubai. What dio you want to hear from me? That building residentials next to a massive airport is a great idea? That they will sell like hotcakes for $$$bns? That a professional retail consultant who is hired to consult on retail finace in Dubai's malls doesn't know his business? That some amateur outsider like you, with zero data or professional knowledge, really knows much better???
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:12 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCanuck
Whose the genius who put that together? Who would golf near an airport? Those loud planes would serve as a major distrction while lining up a putt.
Oh no... it's fantastic planning! Golf courses next to the six airport runways is the best idea ever! People will come from all over the world just for the thrill of a round of golf next to the runway. Your doubts based on commonsense are worth nothing. You need to ask someone like Krazy who lives there. He knows all about it. He just knows it will be raging success. Mookieflookie is an expert too.

Last edited by Monkey; May 4th, 2006 at 07:55 PM.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:25 PM   #75
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The reason I gave you those links was beacuse of your "why dont they build residential property next to the water" comment.

Also there is no use in arguing with someone who doesn't know anything about Dubai. The reason Dubai World Central is going to have residnetial property (not as close to the airport as what you might think looking at the render... the project is larger than you can imagine) is to provide housing to airport employees and hotel accomodation to the tourists/passengers in transit. Dubai is expecting 120 million passengers to use this airport every year.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:37 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
He told me that the most upmarket malls are the least profitable. Many of them are built merely to make the residential apartments built in the same complex more desirable addresses. Why the hostility?
of course you could be right.

but i was looking to set up a store in an upmarket mall. prices are very expensive, maybe $100-$130/sq foot. and with those prices, stores are still being set up. because demand for retail space is so high, those prices will stay high until the new malls are built. perhaps the retail stores are losing money, but i think it is incorrect to say the mall itself is losing money. far from that.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:39 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy
The reason I gave you those links was beacuse of your "why dont they build residential property next to the water" comment.

Also there is no use in arguing with someone who doesn't know anything about Dubai. The reason Dubai World Central is going to have residnetial property (not as close to the airport as what you might think looking at the render... the project is larger than you can imagine) is to provide housing to airport employees and hotel accomodation to the tourists/passengers in transit. Dubai is expecting 120 million passengers to use this airport every year.
yes global passenger traffic is expected to double in the next couple of decades. also consider the indian and chinese boom, population and tourism, and increased chinese immigration and business in Dubai. i think 120 million passengers a year by 2030 is quite realistic.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:41 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Oh no... it's fantastic planning! Golf courses next to the six airport runways is the best idea ever! People will come from all over the world just for the thrill of a round of golf next to the runway. Your doubts based on commonsense are worth nothing. You need to ask someone like Krazy who lives there. He knows all about it. He just knows it will be raging success. Mookieniece is an expert too.
Don't tell me you haven't been in BANGKOK
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:49 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy
Also there is no use in arguing with someone who doesn't know anything about Dubai.
And I don't see the point in arguing with someone who knows absolutely nothing about Dubai's mall finances, and who casually dismisses the experienced opinion of a professional retail consultant, hired specifically to number-crunch the finances of Dubai's malls, in favour of his own amateur and completely uninformed opinion!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy
The reason Dubai World Central is going to have residnetial property (not as close to the airport as what you might think looking at the render... the project is larger than you can imagine) is to provide housing to airport employees and hotel accomodation to the tourists/passengers in transit. Dubai is expecting 120 million passengers to use this airport every year.
Hotels definitely make sense as I said already. Every major airport has hotels for transit passengers. Many trading companies also like to locate near airports so office space makes sense too. However the residential part is unconvincing - even for airport employees that do need convenient access. They should locate it as far as possible from the noise. But they haven't. They have put the residential accommodation close to the runways which must surely make it an undesirable place to live. And I can see the scale clearly on the plan. It is not in any way "unimaginable".

Last edited by Monkey; May 4th, 2006 at 07:10 PM.
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Old May 4th, 2006, 06:50 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
Why does the airport link to Dubai International Airport? Couldn't they just expand DXB?
The current Airport is serving more then 25 Million passangers and it has almost reached the full capacity. True the full capacity would be of 30 Millions, but most of the flights in Dubai are night flights so there is a HUGE concentration of them till early in the morning.

They are investing 4.1 Billion in the extansion of the Airport with 2 more Terminals to be added, the first opening next year. These two will increase the capacity to up to 60 Million and that will be really the saturation point. There is no place to add another runway so a new Airport is really needed. The current JXB will serve ONLY Emirates Airlines, while JXB all the others. The first to be transfered from DXB to JXB, will be the Low Cost and Freight Airlines services, followed from the other passanger Airlines, as the facilities are compleated in stages.

The two Airport will be connected by a dedicated high-speed train service (both passanger and cargo).
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