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Old May 6th, 2006, 03:39 AM   #121
AltinD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2bebrown
Nomarandlee,

i CHALLENGE you to come to Dubai and see the situation for yourself. if you are right, you can come back on this forum and gloat alllllllll you want. you can even quote me on that. I CHALLENGE you to be open minded and make up your mind for yourself instead having people tell you what to think.

or are you too afraid of having your misperceptions SHATTERED?

if you are worried that the Dubai government will go out of its way to hide its construction workers from you, remember that these construction workers work in sites all around the city. you are free to visit all these sites for yourself. In fact, ifyou even go to the burj dubai construction thread, you can see pictures taken by Dubai Forumers on casual drives home of those very workers who rioted.

Its all there, all you have to do is step out of your insular Chicago McSuburb and go educate yourself.
To feel at home, he can even go and see the "Chicago" Musical, currently playing in town.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 03:39 AM   #122
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@Luv3bebrown
Dubai probably does get bashed, and often doubtless unfairly, but what pisses people off is when you guys won't admit any criticism of Dubai or its projects as being legitimate. I'm sorry but Dubai's malls are often loss making. This airport plan does have some obvious flaws. Dubai is being built by South Asian labour with poor rights. The government does censor the media. However even these legitimate and well justified criticisms are met here with a barrage of denial and patronising comments along the lines of "we live here, we know better". I'm sorry but a professional retail consultant, hired specifically to analyse and advise on Dubai's mall finances, knows a **** of a lot better than any of you. The fact that you live there doesn't matter a damn. I live in London and I shop in its malls but I couldn't tell you the first thing about London's mall finances. And you don't have to live in Dubai to pass critical comment on this flawed airport plan. It's not even built yet. We are all looking at the same plans on our computers. I also find some of your foreign policy comments somewhat laughable. You are talking of the world superpower being "afraid" of the reality of Cuba despite Cuba being to total failure. The US media may sometimes get things wrong but at least it's free of censorship (unlike in Dubai) and the basic picture of Dubai being built by South Asian labourers with poor rights is accurate.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 03:45 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
^ Dubai probably does get bashed, and often doubtless unfairly, but what pisses people off is when you guys won't admit any criticism of Dubai or its projects as being legitimate. I'm sorry but Dubai's malls are often loss making. This airport plan does have some obvious flaws. Dubai is being built by South Asian labour with poor rights. The government does censor the media. However even these legitimate and well justified criticisms are met here with a barrage of denial and patronising comments along the lines of "we live here, we know better". I'm sorry but a professional retail consultant, hired specifically to analyse and advise on Dubai's mall finances, knows a **** of a lot better than any of you. The fact that you live there doesn't matter a damn. I live in London but I couldn't tell you the first thing about London's mall finances. And you don't have to live in Dubai to pass critical comment on this flawed airport plan. It's not even built yet. We are all looking at the same plans on our computers. I also find some of your foreign policy comments somewhat laughable. You are talking of the world superpower being "afraid" of the reality of Cuba despite Cuba being to total failure. The US media may sometimes get things wrong but it is free of censorship (unlike in Dubai) and the basic fact of Dubai being built by South Asian labourers with poor rights is accurate.
Cuba in the eyes of many Latin American countries is not a failure and given socialist sentiment throughout latin america, the US views it as a threat. the fact that people in Cuba pulled off a rebellion, nationalized US interests, and stuck its middle finger up to US bullying, AND got away with it, is a thorn in America's butt.

go to the dubai forum, and tell me that we dont acknowledge everything from censorship to citizenship to worker rights. but when somebody tells us that they know from a report that states there are 1,000,000 construction workers in Dubai, and that they dont trust our opinions on the matter, what else is there to say than "we live here, we know better" because WE DO LIVE HERE, and WE DO KNOW BETTER. and then we have people like you coming from nowhere stating that we deny worker rights abuse EVEN THOUGH THERES A FRIGGIN PETITION in the UAE forum. Ignoramus' are annoying, and granted many people are ignorant about many cities, but because Dubai gets so much attention, we get a mammoth's share of ignorant city bashing.

there are not 1,000,000 construction workers in Dubai. I KNOW, BECAUSE I USED TO LIVE THERE, AND STILL VISIT.

what malls do you work with?
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Old May 6th, 2006, 03:55 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2bebrown
what malls do you work with?
None. I was given the information by a retail consultant, a guy I know, who is hired to consult on Dubai's mall finances. He goes there regularly in this capacity. Of course I made that abundantly clear already. By asking me what malls I work with, you are simply attempting to tell me, yet again, that somehow you know better simply because you live there. But you don't. He knows much better than you. If you continue to insist that you know better will only discredit yourself further in my view.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 03:57 AM   #125
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Quote:
luv2bebrown]Monkey, nomarandlee is saying the majority of people moving to Dubai are construction workers. and he is pointing to badly written articles in the NY Times claiming that there are 1,000,000 workers in Dubai doing the construction.

my oh my Brown, you are not only quoting me wrong but you are quoting the NYT wrong as well...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/in...t8h/vLTGzvfyjg

Of the one million Dubai residents, fewer than 200,000 are citizens; two-thirds of the rest are from the Indian subcontinent and the Philippines, the Dubai Development and Investment Authority said. A vast majority of the foreigners work in the service and construction sectors. Last year alone, Mr. bin Dimas said, the government granted 250,000 visas to laborers

............Now, please do tell me where I (or the NYT) said that there were 1 million construction workers in Dubai? You can't. Just making up shite as usual.

As far as the other articles go is it only the NYT that is wrong or is Al-Jazeera and Khaleej times (a UAE newspaper no?) wrong in their facts as well?

Quote:
the population of Dubai is somewhere around 1.7 million... and nomarandlee is telling me that there 1,000,000 construction workers out of that amount.
Again, please point out where I said that?


Quote:
with 10% growth/150,000+ people moving to the city each year, the city's population will be 3,000,000 in less than 10 years. and here we have trolls like Nomarandlee implying that the 3,000,000 population will consist of 2.6+ million transient construction workers.
I have never said nor would I say that. Why would Dubai need 2.5 million construction workers in ten years or fifteen years when many of the projects are now being worked on and employ probably less then 500k?
Unless Dubai has four or five times the amount of projects going in ten of fifteen years then it does now then there is no need for that many construction workers.


Quote:
for the past 2 years, we have been battling the whole "Dubai will collapse when the oil runs out" argument. Now we have to battle the "Dubai is just a bunch of sheikhs being served by 1,000,000 poor indian construction worker" arugment.
So many of the largest construction and real estate companies are not government owned and run by Sheik or Sheik affiliates? The only thing to squabble about is the amount of construction workers and nobody is really arguing that point here.
Or are companies like Emaar and Amlak Finance and Nakheel not run by the government (aka Sheiks more or less).
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Old May 6th, 2006, 03:57 AM   #126
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it IS important to know what malls you work with.
do you have any idea how many malls there are in Dubai? How many do well and how many do badly? do you realize you are being a COMPLETE ignoramus if you are judging the profitability of ALL malls based on the failures of some?
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Old May 6th, 2006, 03:58 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2bebrown
Cuba in the eyes of many Latin American countries is not a failure
Cuba, in the eyes of anyone who has been there (I like your double standards.... ), is a complete and bloody obvious failure.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 03:58 AM   #128
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I see two problematic malls at the moment:

1. BURJUMAN: This mall had a recent extension and has the HIGHEST concentration in the world for Designer's and high fashion outlets. However the mall is inside a busy traffic aerea in the inner city so many potencial customers avoid it for not being stuck in traffic. The parking is unfortunatelly also limited. Another reason is that despite the original plan for a 7 Cinema complex, none is build so far and there is not much if none entertainment.

However the future is not so bleak for this mall that will house the second biggest Metro station in town, where both the red and green lines will cross.


IBN BATUTTA MALL: This is a themmed mall and has an fantastic architecture and amaizing finishes details. But this mall is 35 km from the city center and at the moment just 10,000 peoples lives nearby, but this will change when Dubai Marina, Jumeirah Lake Towers, Discovery Gardens and many other residential projects that are being build in the vicinity, will be populated meaning business.

Now present these to your friend and let me know what he really thinks about it.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 03:59 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2bebrown
it IS important to know what malls you work with.
do you have any idea how many malls there are in Dubai? How many do well and how many do badly? do you realize you are being a COMPLETE ignoramus if you are judging the profitability of ALL malls based on the failures of some?
No credibility....
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:01 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD
I see two problematic malls at the moment:

1. BURJUMAN: This mall had a recent extension and has the HIGHEST concentration in the world for Designer's and high fashion outlets. However the mall is inside a busy traffic aerea in the inner city so many potencial customers avoid it for not being stuck in traffic. The parking is unfortunatelly also limited. Another reason is that despite the original plan for a 7 Cinema complex, none is build so far and there is not much if none entertainment.

However the future is not so bleak for this mall that will house the second biggest Metro station in town, where both the red and green lines will cross.


IBN BATUTTA MALL: This is a themmed mall and has an fantastic architecture and amaizing finishes details. But this mall is 35 km from the city center and at the moment just 10,000 peoples lives nearby, but this will change when Dubai Marina, Jumeirah Lake Towers, Discovery Gardens and many other residential projects that are being build in the vicinity, will be populated meaning business.

Now present these to your friend and let me know what he really thinks about it.
Oh yes... when I present the knowledge of someone who actually lives there, he will doubtless be overwhelmed by a sense in which he has got it wrong, that in fact the malls are either profitable now or will be profitable in the near future.

You must think I'm as stupid as you are....
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:04 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Cuba, in the eyes of anyone who has been there (I like your double standards.... ), is a complete and bloody obvious failure.
not in the eyes of some people i have spoken to, who have been studying the region for decades, and have made MANY trips, not just a small 1-time trip to make a measly newspaper article.

after the collapse of the soviet union, the Cuban economy shrank by a huge fraction. yet teh government survived and still maintains popular support all in spite of a complete embargo. far from a "bloody obvious failure" as you state.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:05 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Monkey
No credibility....
which mall finances do you analyze? if you are so sure of yourself, why dont u tell?
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:06 AM   #133
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No I think you're being an A-hole.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:08 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2bebrown
not in the eyes of some people i have spoken to, who have been studying the region for decades, and have made MANY trips, not just a small 1-time trip to make a measly newspaper article.

after the collapse of the soviet union, the Cuban economy shrank by a huge fraction. yet teh government survived and still maintains popular support all in spite of a complete embargo. far from a "bloody obvious failure" as you state.
Cuba is a bloody obvious failure. It is not a model for the rest of Latin America in any way whatsoever. For starters it's much poorer than most of the Latin America. The people are desperate. They have one of the most ineffectual governments anywhere. Nobody does any work. Its' economy is close to collapse.

Last edited by Monkey; May 6th, 2006 at 04:14 AM.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:09 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2bebrown
which mall finances do you analyze? if you are so sure of yourself, why dont u tell?
What part of my response to post 98 did you not understand? Can you not read or are you just stupid? I repeat:

"None. I was given the information by a retail consultant, a guy I know, who is hired to consult on Dubai's mall finances. He goes there regularly in this capacity. Of course I made that abundantly clear already. By asking me what malls I work with, you are simply attempting to tell me, yet again, that somehow you know better simply because you live there. But you don't. He knows much better than you. If you continue to insist that you know better will only discredit yourself further in my view."
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:12 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
What part of my response to post 98 did you not understand? Can you not read or are you just stupid? I repeat:
so it is possible that you are analyzing one of malls that are going out of business and using that to judge the finances of all the malls in the emirate?
did you know there was a mall built a few years ago on the jumeira beach road that never got any tenants, lay dormant for a year, and was eventually converted to the Dubai campus of the University of Wollongong?

Are you aware that the Dubai City Centre has been so successful, that a second mall owned by the same comapny- The Mall of the Emirates was opened last year?
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:16 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2bebrown
so it is possible that you are analyzing one of malls that are going out of business and using that to judge the finances of all the malls in the emirate?
Is it possible that you are trying yet another angle to prove that Dubai's malls are somehow a model of profitability or success?

Unfortunately for you the answer is no. He consults a lot of malls in Dubai and has been doing so for years.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:19 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Cuba is a bloody obvious failure. It is not a model for the rest of Latin America in any way whatsoever. For starters it's much poorer than most of the Latin America. The people are desperate. They have one of the most ineffectual governments anywhere. Nobody does any work. Its' economy is close to collapse.
yet in spite of the embargo, Cubans have access to some of the best healthcare in the world, and have access to free education. imagine how strong the country would be if the US was not threatened by it and lifted the embargo?

Of course, id LOVE to visit Cuba to see what the reality is and make up my mind for myself, but my government prohibits me from travelling there.
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:20 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey
Is it possible that you are trying yet another angle to prove that Dubai's malls are somehow a model of profitability or success?

Unfortunately for you the answer is no. He consults a lot of malls in Dubai and has been doing so for years.
no, im trying to say that malls, like many businesses in Dubai both do well and fail. i have seen countless restaurants open and close... if I were to analyze the finances of just those closing down, would it be fair for me to say the restaurant industry dubai is not profitable?

find out from your friend what malls he works with.

assuming you are correct... lets say malls in dubai are not profitable.
why are MORE and MORE being built? whatis your explanation?
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Old May 6th, 2006, 04:28 AM   #140
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Quote:
CHALLENGE you to come to Dubai and see the situation for yourself
again, one need not go to apartheid South Africa to know the basics of what was going on there. People need not go to Israel to know that the conditions in the west bank and Gaza are miserable. I will not support the actions of the UAE government's policies and lack of human rights standards (especially for a developed country) on that premise. That is really the end of it. Why I don't want to support the UAE's love of cheap and extremly exploited labor (as well as hypocritical religous and among other things) in its own cities I am not so sure what is so hard to get.



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if you are worried that the Dubai government will go out of its way to hide its construction workers from you, remember that these construction workers work in sites all around the city. you are free to visit all these sites for yourself.
Yes, I am sure your average trourist is allowed it is allowed to stop construction workers while working and interviewing them during their work hours (in sight of their bosses) and get an honest assesment of their true feelings and opinions on their mistreatment. Why suggest that to me when you can suggest that to your Dubai friends to go and ask to talk to them when they are minutes away from their work sites. I would like to know if any of them have ever gotten the chance to take then aside and talk about the conditions in an open and honest fashion. What a BS disengous proposition on your part.

Maybe your friends would find it more easier to do so if most didn't live in concentration camps two hours away from the city? Or maybe most just really don't care what those workers think.


Quote:
In fact, ifyou even go to the burj dubai construction thread, you can see pictures taken by Dubai Forumers on casual drives home of those very workers who rioted.
LMAO..And that proves WHAT? That these people actually exsist? What in the heck does that prove? I didn't think that those buildings and developements were geting built by robots genius. Photos of them working will show what exactually?


Quote:
you seem to have a lot of time to break down people's arguments and counter with your own opinions. Though not necessarily a bad thing, for the sake of keeping these forums about buildings and not name-calling, lets try not piss people off?
Yea, I am being an instigator by bringing up work conditions and well documented social realities in Dubai. LOL. Thats rich.


Quote:
Cuba in the eyes of many Latin American countries is not a failure and given socialist sentiment throughout latin america, the US views it as a threat. the fact that people in Cuba pulled off a rebellion, nationalized US interests, and stuck its middle finger up to US bullying, AND got away with it, is a thorn in America's butt.
This whole Cuba nonsense is off topic, but I will indulge you.

That is why so many central and South Americans are fleeing to Cuba instead of the U.S. Ask many of their poor where would you like to start a new life and I would be shocked if 1 out of 10 would say Cuba over the United States. You would think if Cuba has got it so right that it would have to put walls up to keep people out and not IN.
Again, if the U.S. wanted to make the U.S. people even more anti-communist it would LET its people travel to Cuba.


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that we deny worker rights abuse EVEN THOUGH THERES A FRIGGIN PETITION in the UAE forum
Yes, some are very commendable in the UAE forum in that regard. And some minimalise and downplay it to a disgusting level as well. And those who do should be called out on it (which you seem to oppose).

Just because there were whites in South Africa who were against Apartheid while it was going on that people elsewhere were supposed to shut up or not talk about it? Maybe in your world.

Quote:
there are not 1,000,000 construction workers in Dubai. I KNOW, BECAUSE I USED TO LIVE THERE, AND STILL VISIT.
Again, FOS. Who said that there were 1 million construction workers in Dubai?
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