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Old August 10th, 2008, 03:00 PM   #221
Krattle
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Jeez, AltinD, I am not a structural engineer and I never claimed to be. I'm just criticizing this building based on what knowledge I do have of structures from my reading. Why can't I use this forum to talk about buildings, huh? What's so wrong with my comment? Can I not make a comment unless it is absolutely laudatory? This is why I hate the internet...

And you know what, your sarcasm was totally unnecessary and unfounded. Almost everyone has some basic idea of how planes work. Most people know what lift is and the structure of a plane is actually pretty simple, whereas this building is pretty darn baffling. I'm not an arrogant bast*rd who thinks he knows more than licensed structural engineers.

Of course if this is real I wouldn't go to the site and pester the architects and criticize their building. But I have every right to voice my opinion here.

EDIT: I read up on it some more and I see that electricity would be generated by turbines and solar panels. But that only answers one of my questions.

I forgot one really important thing: What about resistance to earthquakes without any normal structure whatsoever save a central core? Or even wind forces? Wind is why rotating restaurants just use rotating floors instead of rotating the whole thing, among other reasons.

Sorry, but I the more I think about this the more ludicrous it seems. This guy plans to power this thing completely by unconventional methods (wind and solar) yet no skyscraper in history has done this. Who would fund something that is essentially, a completely untested concept? Well, only Dubai I guess.

Here's a comment from some other forum.

How does the elevator work?

1. The floors have no central wall, leaving the center column exposed. You have to walk an average of 180° around it to find the elevator door.

2. There is a central wall with a fixed door (relative to the apartment), and the elevator rotates to face it on each floor.

Even if the elevator doesn't open directly to your apartment, and there's a landing on each floor (I imagine the central column would not just be an elevator shaft; you'll want stairs and such), it doesn't change the fact that you need to get from a moving apartment to a stationary column through an apeture.

Last edited by Krattle; August 10th, 2008 at 03:29 PM.
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Old August 10th, 2008, 03:36 PM   #222
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Krattle, you have been told man, no one wants to hear what you got to say.
You seem very jealous about this tower and Dubai in general.
I suggest you leave this forum.
NOW
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Old August 10th, 2008, 03:38 PM   #223
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It was very clear from my post that what are you asking is up to the structural engineers and not us in here. If even we knew such things there would have been hundreds of such towers around the world already. They (the structural enginers) know all that much better then us in here and are working to overtake the challenges and make it work.

Plus your "concerns" are quite similar to the here and there posts in the Burj Dubai thread: "OMG, it will topple over ... OMG it will snap in two ... etc", posts that have caused angry responses from forumers who actually work in structural engineering.
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Old August 10th, 2008, 05:13 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltinD View Post
It was very clear from my post that what are you asking is up to the structural engineers and not us in here. If even we knew such things there would have been hundreds of such towers around the world already. They (the structural enginers) know all that much better then us in here and are working to overtake the challenges and make it work.

Plus your "concerns" are quite similar to the here and there posts in the Burj Dubai thread: "OMG, it will topple over ... OMG it will snap in two ... etc", posts that have caused angry responses from forumers who actually work in structural engineering.
you don't need to be sarcastic or condascending to explain to somebody why you think they are wrong.

if you think somebody is wrong you need only politely explain why without witticisms and sarcasm. This is a forum site for everyone, opinions inevitably differ, some people may know more than others, but that is no reason to be rude when giving your own opinion.

now, back to this tower, from what i've seen so far it's an interesting concept, it would be nice to see it get built, and so long as it can be done there is no reason why it won't, because as we all know, in Dubai, money is not a barrier.
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Old August 10th, 2008, 09:59 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by i_like_concrete View Post
you don't need to be sarcastic or condascending to explain to somebody why you think they are wrong.

if you think somebody is wrong you need only politely explain why without witticisms and sarcasm. This is a forum site for everyone, opinions inevitably differ, some people may know more than others, but that is no reason to be rude when giving your own opinion.
I'm sorry but we have seen so much during the years in this forum that we can understand right away if someone is asking a innocent question or is more on the bashing side.

BTW, the same guy also asked a question on the thread for the proposed sister tower in Moscow ... now that was a post that deserved a proper civilized reply.
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Old August 11th, 2008, 12:07 AM   #226
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My posts are innocent, and may I point out that many other people have also suspected this to be a hoax or at least a little too far fetched, on this same forum, and have not received the kind of response that I have.

I never said this tower would topple. I simply wondered how the floors can be supported by seemingly no conventional structure. I doubt the structure, yes, and my question will probably remain unanswered until I see construction begin (if it begins). But if it is answered then I will be happy and very interested to see what the engineers came up with. It's simply doubt and wonder.

Last edited by Krattle; August 11th, 2008 at 12:25 AM.
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Old August 11th, 2008, 12:13 AM   #227
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intresting.
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Old August 11th, 2008, 04:50 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Krattle View Post
My posts are innocent, and may I point out that many other people have also suspected this to be a hoax or at least a little too far fetched, on this same forum, and have not received the kind of response that I have.
Look mate, we know what you were trying to do, we just don't need it here.
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Old August 11th, 2008, 05:35 AM   #229
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What?! What on earth am I "trying to do?"

Just look at the man's website and compare it to any other reputable architect's site. He has no portfolio and it's nothing but self-laudatory. Norman Foster's website isn't like that, nor is Cesar Pelli's.

I'm just gonna leave and seclude myself in the Japan forum. I've had enough of the childishness of this forum.
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Old August 11th, 2008, 05:48 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy Machine View Post
Old Images an d information I found from emails dating back to Jan 4th. I also tried emailing this Fisher guy with no response.





"but they are being very secretive about a lot of the project."

videos on the project:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MVitjMIKvAQ

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8JAZdBLUpQA&feature=related

amazing!
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Old August 11th, 2008, 05:57 AM   #231
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The CN Tower In Toronto is also turning, so there most be already a solution to that sort of problems.
Not actually. The only thing that actually turns in the CN tower is the floor and what sits on it, the rest does not rotate. All plumbing and utilities with the exception of electricity do not move. By designing this way it's much easier to build and maintain.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 04:30 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by AltinD View Post


PS. Correcting three misconceptions:
1. The central core always support itself and partially the rest of the building around it.
2. The floors will NOT be constantly in movement.
3. (last but not least) It doesn't matter much who David Fisher is, rather who Leslie E. Robertson is.
I think he was talking about lateral stability, not vertical loads. Most supertall buildings use some sort of perimeter bracing, a bundled tube system or outriggers to engage perimeter columns in the stability system. A small central core is only used for stability on much shorter buildings. On a supertall, if the stability is derived primarily from a core, it will always take up a huge percentage of the total floor area - the Burj Dubai being the most obvious example where almost the entire building is effectively core.

The core does look way too small on this proposal. But who knows - advances are always being made in materials. It's all just a matter of keeping the bending stresses lower than material strength.

The big question is how the floors can be made strong enough to radiate so far out from the core. The current proposal appears unlikely to be achieveable. I'm not going to write another 15 paragraphs as to why - it is obvious to any structural engineer what the problems are.

There's a good article about this proposal in the latest New Civil Engineer (UK). There are comments from various engineers involved in the project. Make no mistake - the engineering hasn't been completed for this. It is an architectural concept which will almost certainly be modified once the structural engineers have undertaken some preliminary analysis.

It will probably be built, but don't be too disppointed when you see significant changes to the design once the structural engineers bring this Fisher chap back to reality.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 04:42 PM   #233
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What?! What on earth am I "trying to do?"

I'm just gonna leave and seclude myself in the Japan forum. I've had enough of the childishness of this forum.
Krattle - I actually thought your questions were very good - and I'm a chartered structural engineer with 7 years experience designing buildings, including the odd supertall. I don't understand why the others responded the way they did. I encourage you to keep asking questions.

Those of you outside the engineering community would be amazed by how many arguments this building is causing in offices around the world! What we are seeing is an early architectural idea, where the engineering - yes, by Leslie Robertson - is only just getting underway. Yet people are treating it like a final product. I fully expect all the problems and challenges to be overcome in the end, but only through modifications to the architecture.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 09:14 PM   #234
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build !!! now !!!
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Old November 5th, 2008, 03:13 PM   #235
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So is this job a hoax? Nothing has been said about it for months.
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Old November 5th, 2008, 04:18 PM   #236
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There was a interview with him last week and the only thing he was backtracking were the wind turbines in between the floors.
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Old November 6th, 2008, 11:45 AM   #237
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Interesting idea with the garage thing. But really, not something I'd want...
Otherwise looks to be a cool tower. It would be cool to see it built just to see how it works...
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Old November 6th, 2008, 12:11 PM   #238
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There was a interview with him last week and the only thing he was backtracking were the wind turbines in between the floors.
Thanks AltinD. Are you able to post the interview? I remember months ago they were saying 'construction would start in a few weeks'. There was a lot of interest in the project back then, but it seems to have all died down. I guess the Burj Dubai and Nakheel tower are overshadowing other projects at the moment. It would be great to see this tower built if they can make it work.
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Old November 6th, 2008, 04:17 PM   #239
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here u go!

David Fisher's rotating tower took a beating from critics around the world when it was launched in June. Since then little was heard from Fisher who had everything from his designs to his qualifications challenged. In a breaking exclusive interview Benjamin Millington quizzes David Fisher on some burning unanswered questions.

There have been reports questioning your qualifications saying that you did not receive your degree from where you say you did, is this true?

I have not seen the reports, but I heard about them and I am not bothered. I received my degree in architecture from Florence Design University on April 13 1976 and now I teach and give lectures and have been invited to speak at several universities including Harvard and Columbia. So if somebody has doubts, they should check their history better.

Story continues below ↓
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When this building is built, that will be my best response to critics.I can only say what I know and have done, these people are just trying to be smart or have some other interest. Besides I don't think the project should be judged on a personal basis, it has the biggest engineering firms in the world working on it, it has Boshe, which is a US $72 billion (EUR58 billion) company of high technology, our MEP and fire engineers have worked on the tallest towers in Dubai - so maybe someone should question them as well.

Some people have said that you don't have the necessary experience to design such a building, having a background in pre-fabricated bathroom units and no previous tall tower experience, what do you say to those critics?

Well, besides practicing architecture, I was in construction with a partner and built hotels and industrial buildings. We went into development as well.

I went into an industry related to construction, so I went all the way around and think I have enough experience to do this tower. I don't think the partners, the investors or the engineering companies have any doubts about myself and my people's ability to build this tower.

Those that do, should just wait and be patient. When this building is built, that will be my best response to critics. I would also like to point out that to design this building is so simple, to build it is going to be so simple. I know some people say it is impossible, how can a building move?

How can you build it? How can you lift up the floors? But it is so much easier than a normal construction site and it is so much easier to design it because all the floors are the same and the shape of the building is determined by the movement, not by the imagination of an architect.

What do you say to people who say this building is a fantasy?

Before the first aircraft was invented people thought it was a fantasy and going to the moon was a fantasy and having a laptop was a fantasy.

This is much easier and much more simple and cannot compare to what I just mentioned. I honestly have no doubt this building will be a reality within the next two years.

How is the project progressing?

As soon as we have the final land approvals we should start construction. We have just started producing the first pre-fab units in our factory in Italy.

Any idea on when construction might start?

When everything is in order, hopefully in the next two to three months we will start excavations. We should be ready in any case to lift the first floor, which will actually be the top floor, in about 13 months from today.

That means having the foundations and the core of the building finished by then. The construction will take only 22 months to complete from the time we start excavations, so the entire tower should be completed two years from now.

How will you construct the building?

We will first build the core of the tower, then we put the floors together on the ground and then we lift the whole floor up to the final position where it is connected to the core.

The first floor to be lifted will be the top floor and the next will be the second highest floor, and so on. The last floor to be installed and connected to the core will be the ground floor.

Has the enabling and piling works been awarded?

We are talking to one of the big companies in the UAE to do the foundation and the site preparation and everything that is conventional. Also the core, which is quite conventional and has been built before for non-rotating towers - it's a proven technology.

What is the current cost of the building and has it increased?

No, it has not increased. The total cost is something like $700 million.

Will each apartment rotate independently?

If you have an entire floor then yes, of course, it will be voice activated. It will not be the owner of one single apartment who gets to choose the position unless we decide, which has been suggested, that once a week each owner will be able to rotate the apartment where they like at dinner time to show friends.

Will they ever get dizzy up there?

No, not at all, the movement is very slow and there is no vibration. There are enough tests about movement, in terms of air simulators and so on, to make sure that nobody feels dizzy.

Some industry experts have questioned how you are going to service the apartments with plumbing and electrical, can you explain how this will be done?

I can tell you that on each floor there is a smart connection that allows a fixed pipe to move all around and the important thing is that we will have normal water pressure and fresh water flow to all the floors.

We found a technical solution to the problems and will explain it further once it is installed and we no longer have to hide it. But now I can only say it is a very simple smart connection for water and for waste that will continue to operate regardless of the rotation.

Is it like a rotating joint on each floor and will it solve the problem?

Yes, in a way. Absolutely yes, we have some of the most experienced engineers worldwide working on this. We have Boshe working on all the interface - they are the biggest developers of drive and control systems in the world.

They work on missile systems, drive systems for planes and cars, moving bridges, aircraft simulators, you name it. All of our engineers are very stimulated by the challenge of doing something that has never been done before.

It's not just another concrete column but we are bringing technology that exists in other sectors into construction, and it's about time. Technologies existing in aircraft engineering or train engineering or offshore platforms are much more complicated than what we are doing.

For each floor we will have a brush system similar to the system used for trains or subways. That's a simple one that somebody else invented years ago.

Have you experienced any problems with manufacturing your pre-fab units?

No, absolutely not, we have only just started. In the past our associated manufacturer has shipped much bigger and much more complicated pre-fab units to Dubai and Abu Dhabi. These have such complicated MEP systems that making units with just waste and hot and cold water is a joke.

You've also said that the tower will produce energy for itself and surrounding buildings. Can you explain how this will work?

We are going to have wind turbines between the floors and this is a challenge that we are still working on and cannot guarantee they will work because we are still in the process of developing it.

Are you finding wind won't turn the turbines between the floors?

Well, there are several issues such as the noise, for this we have probably found a solution but it hasn't been completely proven. And for the other issues, I believe that the solutions will be found, but it may take a few more months to be able to say yes, everything is 100% OK.

The rest of the building is going to work, no doubt, and in fact the building does not depend on wind turbine because it will be connected to the grid.

So if the wind turbine problems aren't solved you will be powered by the grid?

In any case the building will be powered by the grid and the wind turbines will be a separate thing where we sell power back to the grid.

If the shape is constantly changing, will it be able to withstand wind loading?

Yes, of course. In places where there are storms, the building will be reshaped according to the power of the wind so that it is more able to take the wind. So if the wind was more than 100 miles an hour the floors will not be controlled by the tenants but by a computer system that will shape the building in the best way to take the load of the wind.

In Dubai we don't have wind issues, so this will not be the case here, but we are considering it for places like Miami where there are severe storms and other places where there are severe earthquakes.

What is the driving mechanism that is going to rotate each floor?

It's quite a simple mechanical system on each floor. I think to rotate the whole building on one system would be very very complicated, but just one floor is not a big issue.

Is it a hydraulic system?

I cannot go into details unfortunately because we have very strict confidentiality agreements with Boshe and so on.

What about maintenance of these systems, is that going to be an issue?

Most buildings don't have any maintenance facilities, you have to break the building to fix anything, which I found to be so ridiculous. This is why I picked bathrooms years ago, which some people put as a joke, but this was in order to try and solve the prefabrication of the most complicated part of the construction of the building which are the bathrooms. It has everything - plumbing, electrical, everything you have in a bathroom system.

This was a very big challenge because also one of the issues was to be able to do maintenance in a real time. So this building you can do maintenance for anything, for plumbing systems or electrical systems without having to break into any part of the building.

And the rotation itself has a very low requirement for maintenance. It can take many years before you have to do any maintenance.

If someone's floor breaks down, are there any problems getting access to the driving mechanism?

Absolutely not, we have access to everything going into each floor including the normal plumbing system, the electrical system, everything - I don't want to use a hammer on this building when something goes wrong.

This is also why we believe this building will live much longer than a normal building. Today buildings are built for between 50 to 100 years which is completely ridiculous when aircrafts fly the same number of years with much more complicated systems and risk factor, why? Because you can do maintenance to airplanes. So we are going to have a complete maintenance service to this building.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/53664...hts-of-fantasy
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Old November 6th, 2008, 07:24 PM   #240
malec
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What a load of crap, in 2 months excavation starting and core topped out in a year? I know Dubai developers give ridiculous completion dates but this is

Also if this is a real project and not a fantasy/vision/hoax then answer these:
Where is the exact location?
Who is the developer?
Where is the money coming from?
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