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Old November 6th, 2008, 11:20 PM   #241
rgarrison
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Im still a lil skeptical. Can't they at least tell us a location or possible location? I hope this isn't a joke and gets built.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 09:41 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurms Mackenzie View Post
...It will probably be built, but don't be too disppointed when you see significant changes to the design once the structural engineers bring this Fisher chap back to reality.
well said
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Old November 7th, 2008, 10:09 AM   #243
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This would-be tower reminds me of Butch.
The one in Frank Zappa's "Dance contest"... where this guy screams his name sounding a lil bit dumb, and Zappa then says: "Awright, the dynamic Butch!"
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Old November 8th, 2008, 02:50 PM   #244
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This is a really interesting concept that shouldn't be dismissed even if it may look like a hoax. Building a very simple core and attaching prefabricated units to that core makes a great deal of sense.

Using brushes for the electrical services is obvious and known technology. They do not disclose how the water services cross the rotating line but a few minutes thought and I came up with the very normal method of using a header tank with a ball **** - the only difference being that the header tank would need to be a complete annular ring. This is probably actually easier to do in Dubai with the far from perfect water supply that nobody actually drinks since you don't necessarily have to maintain the water to high drinking water standards which is often a problem with header tanks. This annular trough could even be used to float the entire floor allowing the rotation - think carefully about that one before dismissing!

I do think the car lift is a bit silly and extremely dangerous from a fire perspective which is probably the main reason you will never see that materialise. If they do build a lift for cars then I for one will steer well clear of this building.

I think the car lift idea stems from what I think is the main issue with this one - the need for a large diameter core. With a large diameter core there is an awful lot of wasted space. Maybe leaving it as simply an atrium with reflected sunlight with glass elevators on the sides would create an additional wow factor.

Once you start simplifying and making this one practical, this thing actually seems to make far more sense even than standard skyscraper designs. Basically build a simple tall chimney and throw factory produced rings around it and jack them up into place.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 04:07 PM   #245
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Well said Flintbug!
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Old November 9th, 2008, 06:11 AM   #246
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Once you start simplifying and making this one practical, this thing actually seems to make far sense even than standard skyscraper designs. Basically build a simple tall chimney and throw factory produced rings around it and jack them up into place.
You're correct it's very simple until you throw in a rotational factors. As stated elsewhere electrical connections and the drive mechanism are not major problems but I think freshwater and wastewater will cause major headaches in the long term. I can just see a leak on an upper floor cascading down through lower units.
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Old November 9th, 2008, 10:03 AM   #247
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The challenge with fresh and waste water is really interesting. One approach to passing the water across a rotating structure is to not do it at all.

Instead go for recycling of the water completely within the rotating part of the structure. There is technology available with microfilters that could reprocess the waste and extract clean water.

Alternatively go for the method employed in motorhomes (camping cars, rv's, wohnwagen) and inland waterway barges. Have fresh water and waste water tanks. Refill and pump out at service stations which could be at fixed locations on the central core.

However, the easy way would be to put all those 'wet' facilities in the non rotating part of the building and only rotate living rooms, bedrooms, and offices.
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Old November 10th, 2008, 03:57 PM   #248
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As I've said many times before, I see no problem with the mech/elec side of things - it's been done before on a smaller scale. And scale isn't a particular problem for mech/elec.

It is, however, a problem for structure. It is simply not possible to cantilever 'open-plan' floor plates out that far from the core. We are talking about a cantilever of about 15m! And the concept sketches show a thin floorplate which has no hope of cantilevering more than about 3m. There is no structure at the edges due to the rotational effect.

It doesn't matter how many times Fisher says 'this is really simple' or 'this will work', any structural engineer like me can see that the floorplans will never work. If this is going to be built, the apartments will have to divided into small spaces by walls/trusses which radiate out from the core in order to provide sufficiently strong/rigid cantilever elements.

Fisher simply doesn't know what he's talking about. If his team are as good as he says they are, they will hopefully explain some structural engineering to him and we'll see changes to the design which will actually make this thing possible.
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Old November 10th, 2008, 04:08 PM   #249
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A wide element held in place by a thin core seems quite normal to me...

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Old November 11th, 2008, 12:01 AM   #250
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Quote:
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A wide element held in place by a thin core seems quite normal to me...
[/img]
Fine. Now make it 400 meters tall, pile up 50 more of those "spools" on the mast, and let's see what happens when the wind passes 10 knots (or just the load happens to be on the same side on all floors).
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Old November 11th, 2008, 03:35 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurms Mackenzie View Post
As I've said many times before, I see no problem with the mech/elec side of things - it's been done before on a smaller scale. And scale isn't a particular problem for mech/elec.

It is, however, a problem for structure. It is simply not possible to cantilever 'open-plan' floor plates out that far from the core. We are talking about a cantilever of about 15m! And the concept sketches show a thin floorplate which has no hope of cantilevering more than about 3m. There is no structure at the edges due to the rotational effect.

It doesn't matter how many times Fisher says 'this is really simple' or 'this will work', any structural engineer like me can see that the floorplans will never work. If this is going to be built, the apartments will have to divided into small spaces by walls/trusses which radiate out from the core in order to provide sufficiently strong/rigid cantilever elements.

Fisher simply doesn't know what he's talking about. If his team are as good as he says they are, they will hopefully explain some structural engineering to him and we'll see changes to the design which will actually make this thing possible.
I am also an engineer but am very open to new ideas that rewrite the book. I delved into the world of boat design and found naval architects obsessed with effectively only one way of making something that floats that was derived from the technology of dugout canoes. They were simply using carbon fibre to make dugouts rather than rethinking what a boat should be.

I presume, a structural engineer familiar with designing skyscrapers is likely to be very confident applying the rules to a composite concrete and steel, or pure structural steel but would they also be confident at designing a carbon fibre based deck of a boat? Since these are going to be factory built independent modular pods, the use of high tech composites and boat building technology is far more likely than the use of concrete and steel.

This will lead to a far lighter yet stiffer structure where the length of cantilevers can be far greater.

Once you rethink the materials being used, you can rewrite the rulebooks.
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Old November 12th, 2008, 01:30 PM   #252
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I presume, a structural engineer familiar with designing skyscrapers is likely to be very confident applying the rules to a composite concrete and steel, or pure structural steel but would they also be confident at designing a carbon fibre based deck of a boat? Since these are going to be factory built independent modular pods, the use of high tech composites and boat building technology is far more likely than the use of concrete and steel.

I partly agree with your comments - it all comes down to material strength/stiffness. If they are using something revolutionary (at least in building terms) like carbon fibre, then maybe they can cantilever further than what we would intuitively expect to see. But if we are talking about something that is cost-effective (which this is supposed to be) then I would suggest that carbon fibre floor plates cantilevering 15m with an overall depth of about 300mm is probably not going to meet the budget requirements! I still expect that, whatever the material, the units will be divided up by stiffening wall elements to enable the big cantilever to be achieved in a cost-effective manner.

I don't want to be seen as negative about this project - I genuinely want to see it built and would love to see how they overcome the many challenges. That is the type of thing that makes engineering interesting!

As for the photo above, the scale of the cantilever is quite different and we don't know what's inside the 'orange part' - probably structure that is holding up the floor plate. So the cantilevers are only a few metres. There is no way that floor is cantilevering all the way out from the central core without some help. In fact you can see from the photo that there is a wider circle of structure around the core which is probably thicker/stiffer than the thin floor you see at the edges.
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Old November 12th, 2008, 05:01 PM   #253
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The cantilever is bound to use both the floor and ceiling plate to gain maximum advantage. Yes the rooms may not be able to be as open plan as the designer would prefer.

Don't dismiss carbon fibre too soon. If using this one expensive material allows you to eliminate complexity or volumes/weights of other materials then it may well be considered cheap. One boat I designed simply could not have been built with any current material other than carbon fibre, but by using carbon fibre, much of the complexity and cost of manufacture was eliminated. The main problem with carbon fibre at the moment are all those new Dreamliner and A380 carbon fibre planes that are sucking the market dry.
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Old November 13th, 2008, 05:37 PM   #254
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I would like to point out that the design for 7 south dearborn in Chicago also involved cantilevered floors without columns, and this was for a 2000ft building.
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Old November 13th, 2008, 10:31 PM   #255
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The building for people too damned lazy to get up and walk around their apartment for a different view.

I'm sure this is an ingenious design, and hats off to the architects and engineers who designed it, but gads, what a monstrosity it is. I'd think the odds against your ever seeing the tower from street level-- or, let's be fair, from any vantage point-- with all the protrusions even close to lined up is remote at best, and even then it looks hideous, like a Transformer after an all-night bender.

Just because a building can be built doesn't necessarily mean it should be.

My US $0.02.
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Old November 14th, 2008, 03:30 PM   #256
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I would like to point out that the design for 7 south dearborn in Chicago also involved cantilevered floors without columns, and this was for a 2000ft building.
But the height has nothing to do with it - it's the cantilever of each floorplate that I'm talking about.

The project you've mentioned appears to have much smaller floorplates compared with the core size, so the cantilever is smaller. Also it has an aligned building edge which allows for perimeter support systems - the dynamic tower can't do this. An external render doesn't give any indication of the internal floorplans which is the critical consideration for achieving big cantilevers.

I'm sure you can find 1000 other buildings that have 'cantilevered floorplates' and I will give you 1000 reasons why this building is not the same.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 10:45 AM   #257
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Height at emporis now is 80 floors and 388 meters in height
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Old November 17th, 2008, 10:54 AM   #258
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Dynamic Tower Named ‘Best Inventions of 2008’ : Time

17-November-2008

DUBAI - The Dynamic Tower, the world’s first rotating skyscraper, has been named one of TIME Magazine’s “50 Best Inventions of the Year” for its revolutionary design and innovations. Created by renowned Italian architect David Fisher, the Dynamic Tower was one of the top selections in a list of groundbreaking inventions.

Each floor of the Dynamic Tower rotates independently to create a building that constantly changes its shape and appearance, resulting in a unique and ever evolving architectural landmark.

The Dynamic Tower is environmentally friendly and the first building designed to be completely self-powered, with wind turbines positioned horizontally between each floor, and photovoltaic cells placed on the roof of each rotating floor to produce solar energy.

The Dynamic Tower will also be the first skyscraper to be built entirely from prefabricated parts that are custom made in a workshop and then installed on site.

This method offers a number of advantages including an environmentally clean construction site, less onsite accidents, and reduced time and cost of construction.

Residents of the Dynamic Towers will be able to park their cars at the entrance to their apartments, which will have voice activated systems. From their swimming pools located next to the glass wall of the building, residents will be able to look out and see the world rotating around them.

These will also be the first buildings where construction begins at the top, with each floor mechanically installed from top to bottom.


http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayA...ction=business
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Old November 18th, 2008, 03:14 PM   #259
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And yep it is really on their list at Number 16.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/pa...854134,00.html
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Old November 19th, 2008, 05:40 AM   #260
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Dynamic Tower Named ‘Best Inventions of 2008’ : Time
It's beyond me how the "Time" can call an "invention" something the feasibility of which is yet to be demonstrated. But then hey, it's the media.
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