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Old June 26th, 2008, 06:22 AM   #101
storms991
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Looks great, but truthfully, I don't see how it can generate enough energy to power itself. There's probably a good reason why something like this hasn't been done before, most probably the structural and engineering aspects of it. Only part I hate is that your car is transported all the way to the top floor. It takes a LOT of energy to transport a car elevator(1500-2000kg total??) with a car and person on it to any height.
I believe the equation is W = F*d.
If one storey is 2.6 metres high then it would take 3060-4080 Kj to transport a normal saloon car to the 80th floor. Insane.


Besides that, there's only one way to find out for sure if its possible to construct this tower. Only time will tell.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 08:35 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choyak View Post
This thing would be BUTT UGLY randomly stacked Legos if the residents have their way. I would compromise, and build it circular. Build the rotating floors like Marina City in Chicago, then it would not matter where the residents aligned their floors, it would appear symmetrical. There would be a requirement that the residents get to align their floor only when the balconies were aligned.

As per my earlier post with the stacked Lego image, this would be REPULSIVE unless the residents did not have control. I could see a requirement that each resident has to align theirs with the one below it (you have 3 choices), but for the multiple apartment floors, you would need to bribe the other residents if you desired a certain alignment.
What's wrong with the stacked Lego idea? I think it looks great. Why do Skyscraper purists only ever want to sleek and streamlined? This is bold and sculptural and, if it really gets built, it will be totally fabulous.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 08:42 AM   #103
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By the way - for the doubters: David Fisher (weird name for an Italian, he must be Jewish) was a professor of architecture and structural engineering at Florence University, which is a major Italian university with a very good reputation for its architecture department. So he can't be a total fraud.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 08:46 AM   #104
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An illustrious project. Sublime.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 09:58 AM   #105
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From the website of the tower





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Old June 26th, 2008, 10:49 AM   #106
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Pretty cool Futuristic world
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Old June 26th, 2008, 11:37 AM   #107
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Awesome!, now we can say that we are in the future
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Old June 26th, 2008, 11:47 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CULWULLA View Post
ive chatted to engineers in my work about this tower and they think its a simple idea. it would work no problems. plumbing ect. the segments are attached to core with enormours rings. (they wouldnt fall off).
Not questioning the MEP side of things - yes there are solutions to that. In fact a guy in Australia built a rotating house and he had to get around all the plumbing problems.

I'm talking about structural problems. There is simply no way that the current floorplans can be made to work - there is nothing holding them up. I'm not saying that the whole concpet is flawed - you could make it work by drastically altering the floorplans. But as they are, it has no hope. You can't cantilever a floorplate that far out from a core without having big walls/trusses radiating out from the core. At the moment, the corridor surrounding the core completely detaches the apartments from the core.

Then there is the core itself. Supertall skyscrapers can be expected to have a braced perimeter or a bundled tube system. A small central core would need to be made of solid steel or carbon fibre to cantilever up 420m in a place like Dubai where there are wind and seismic loads. Perhaps this is what they are going to do? If so, I think the doorways into the core will only be suitable for hobbits!

Again, the concept could be made to work with drastic changes, but I suspect a lot of what we are seeing at the moment is the work of salesmen, rather than engineers. Kind of like that Burj Dubai image with the lift panel with 189 floors on it.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 12:17 PM   #109
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Why do people keep doubting these sorts of projects? They're designed by architects and structural engineers who know a hell of a lot more about current technology than we do!

If this gets built it'll be a benchmark for skyscraper technology. This is the sort of stuff we're studying at uni right now and the possibilities are only going to get more advanced in the future.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 01:25 PM   #110
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Why do people keep doubting these sorts of projects? They're designed by architects and structural engineers who know a hell of a lot more about current technology than we do!

I am a structural engineer, chartered and with significant experience designing buildings, including Parc1 (Seoul), one of the supertalls listed on this site. As I've said, I'm not questioning the concept overall (the external view which everyone is so excited about), but the internal floorplans clearly don't work. There is simply not enough structure internally to prevent the floors from sagging at the edges. Us structural engineers are used to being given concepts like this and then having to bring everyone back to the reality that gravity must be resisted.

Again, I think the internal floorplans are probably just the product of an overzealous saleseman (they have to do this stuff to get finance). What we can expect to see is a lot more structure cutting through each 'pod' in order to enable the apartments to cantilever such a long way out from the core.

The core itself will have to utilise latest technologies...maybe 150MPa concrete reinforced to 8% or something, or solid steel. The openings in the core will have to be tiny if the structure is to be strong enough and rigid enough to perform. The stresses from lateral loading will be huge.

I agree that a lot of people on this site question building designs without any basis for doing so (silly comments from non-engineers like 'this building is gonna fall over!'). But in this case, I can see that there is a problem with what is being presented as the design. What the design actually is can always be expected to differ from what is presented to the public initially. That's all I'm saying.

The fact that I don't like it is a separate issue Not the appearance, which I think is quite cool, but the outrageous impracticality of it.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 02:09 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurms Mackenzie View Post
I am a structural engineer, chartered and with significant experience designing buildings, including Parc1 (Seoul), one of the supertalls listed on this site. As I've said, I'm not questioning the concept overall (the external view which everyone is so excited about), but the internal floorplans clearly don't work. There is simply not enough structure internally to prevent the floors from sagging at the edges. Us structural engineers are used to being given concepts like this and then having to bring everyone back to the reality that gravity must be resisted.

Again, I think the internal floorplans are probably just the product of an overzealous saleseman (they have to do this stuff to get finance). What we can expect to see is a lot more structure cutting through each 'pod' in order to enable the apartments to cantilever such a long way out from the core.

The core itself will have to utilise latest technologies...maybe 150MPa concrete reinforced to 8% or something, or solid steel. The openings in the core will have to be tiny if the structure is to be strong enough and rigid enough to perform. The stresses from lateral loading will be huge.

I agree that a lot of people on this site question building designs without any basis for doing so (silly comments from non-engineers like 'this building is gonna fall over!'). But in this case, I can see that there is a problem with what is being presented as the design. What the design actually is can always be expected to differ from what is presented to the public initially. That's all I'm saying.

The fact that I don't like it is a separate issue Not the appearance, which I think is quite cool, but the outrageous impracticality of it.
I completely understand what you're saying and I agree. It's not just the case with this building, but many skyscrapers under construction tend to look fairly different in their physical completed form compared to renders and initial plans, and I guess this applies to methods of construction also.

I have to admit I'm a bit skeptical about the floorplans like you said, because the floorplates shown in the renders look a bit too thin to have that much weight supported only by the core. Maybe the floorplates are made of magnet compounds similar to those found in maglev technology to counteract the weight of each floor on top or below? Ok now I'm just being impractical. :P

I'm no engineer but I find the engineering side of this structure very interesting and really want to see what they come up with for the construction phase. Will it be a typical 'ground-up' method of construction or will they assemble each floor in modules and add them after? We'll have to see.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 02:29 PM   #112
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I find this project very feasible.

Actually there´s a building in Curitiba, Brazil, called Suite Vollard in which each floor can rotate 360 degrees, completely independently of all the other floors. It´s the same concept as the Dynamic Tower, albeit it's only 11-storeys high.

Here´s the link: http://www.suitevollard.com
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Old June 26th, 2008, 03:08 PM   #113
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How does staircase work from top to bottom? Each floor move/is different direction.. hmmm
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Old June 26th, 2008, 03:12 PM   #114
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guys im really nervous because yesterday i read al khaleej newspaper (in arabic) that they built a rotating its called 55 tower in dubai .
its turn around it self every week (52 degree every day)
the construction will start 8/8/2008 and it will finish in 11/11/2011 .
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Old June 26th, 2008, 03:14 PM   #115
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do you think its the same tower ?
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Old June 26th, 2008, 03:28 PM   #116
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Stunning concept, perfect for Dubai, got to be built!!!!
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Old June 26th, 2008, 03:30 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burj Duboy View Post
I find this project very feasible.

Actually there´s a building in Curitiba, Brazil, called Suite Vollard in which each floor can rotate 360 degrees, completely independently of all the other floors. It´s the same concept as the Dynamic Tower, albeit it's only 11-storeys high.

Here´s the link: http://www.suitevollard.com
The structural system for that building bears absolutely no resemblance to this one. On that project, there is a non-moving balcony surrounding the whole thing, so columns can easily be positioned around the perimeter to support the floorplate. For the one in Dubai, there is no perimeter support for the floorplates, only the central core. In order to cantilever the floorplates out from the core, there needs to be rigid structure which is rigidly linked to the core. There is no such structure shown on the current floorplans, nor on the renders of the 'assembly' process.

As I've said many times now, I'm not questioning the feasibility of the overall concept, but what we are seeing is an optimistic interpretation of the concept - the reality will not be the same. There will need to be deep structure supporting each segment of the floor as it radiates out from the core. For example, the partition walls could be made into storey-height trusses.

As for comparing an 11-storey building with this one, do I have to point out that this is a 420m tall building?!?! We are talking about height that only a few years ago would have rivalled the tallest in the world. It's hard enough to get a normal building up to those heights, with combinations of multiple cores, outriggers, perimeter bracing, bundled-tube systems. This has none of that - it requires a relatively small central core to cantilever 420m.

I'm sure they'll find a way to do it, but the explanations I've seen so far don't stack up (pardon the pun). Perhaps the 'assembly' renders have been dumbed down for mass-media and the really do intend to have storey-height beams/trusses dividing up the floorplans.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 03:48 PM   #118
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55 tower

I believe a few pages back Culwulla posted a link to the "55" tower website. A completely different project.

It's amazing watching the optimists and pessimists battle it out! I cannot believe there would be press on this scale, it is in the national newspapers in the UK, without all the issues being aired having been sorted out. I love the design and the lego look personally.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 04:15 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurms Mackenzie View Post
The structural system for that building bears absolutely no resemblance to this one. On that project, there is a non-moving balcony surrounding the whole thing, so columns can easily be positioned around the perimeter to support the floorplate. For the one in Dubai, there is no perimeter support for the floorplates, only the central core. In order to cantilever the floorplates out from the core, there needs to be rigid structure which is rigidly linked to the core. There is no such structure shown on the current floorplans, nor on the renders of the 'assembly' process.

As I've said many times now, I'm not questioning the feasibility of the overall concept, but what we are seeing is an optimistic interpretation of the concept - the reality will not be the same. There will need to be deep structure supporting each segment of the floor as it radiates out from the core. For example, the partition walls could be made into storey-height trusses.

As for comparing an 11-storey building with this one, do I have to point out that this is a 420m tall building?!?! We are talking about height that only a few years ago would have rivalled the tallest in the world. It's hard enough to get a normal building up to those heights, with combinations of multiple cores, outriggers, perimeter bracing, bundled-tube systems. This has none of that - it requires a relatively small central core to cantilever 420m.

I'm sure they'll find a way to do it, but the explanations I've seen so far don't stack up (pardon the pun). Perhaps the 'assembly' renders have been dumbed down for mass-media and the really do intend to have storey-height beams/trusses dividing up the floorplans.
What are you talking about? There´s a central fixed core and the whole apartment including the balcony revolves around this core. Or did I miss something?
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Old June 26th, 2008, 05:22 PM   #120
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Well, if nothing else, this building has achieved what it intended to do in the first place: get publicity. Beside that, their being "secretive" about the project to me may well indicate that they haven't solved the actual engineering questions, and possibly don't care.
"The buildings have to overcome several technical challenges such as connecting the plumbing with the same kind of shut-off valves used when refuelling aircraft in flight. To take the lift, residents have to step from the rotating floor into the stationary central core."
Now how's mentioning that and omitting to speak of the hard stuff? Anyway, the only thing that's clear from that plumbing explanation is that the system is going to be overly complicated and prone to failure:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle4207801.ece
(also take a look at the comments, they're instructive).
If I had to judge (luckily I don't have to) then this Fisher is fishy, being as much in politics as in architecture:
http://www.demaniore.it/opencms/open...rumb=dettaglio
And this is his (quite short) CV:
http://www.demaniore.it/opencms/open...02.html?page=2
It seems his top technical achievement so far is this "smart bathroom".
But why are people with camels in their avatars more, um, confident that the average?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravinda View Post
First off, this building isn't going to have 'plumbing problems'. I mean seriously...its that the most challenging aspect of this project? I can think of more than one solution to that just off the top of my head.
Interesting, will you please share these solutions with us?
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Originally Posted by aravinda View Post
As for those that doubt the validity of this project, it made the evening news around the world.
Well, after all, if it's in TV then it must be science. (Sigh)
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