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Old August 8th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #2221
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Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
And, as you said, the proof is in the pudding. We KNOW that metro lines require huge maintenance costs, which is why some thought should go into the need for such rapid and expansive construction. This isn't a "China-only" issue. I see the same problem with LightRail in the US...in many of these cities, improved bus services could do more - and for far less money - than building a rail line.
You make it sound like there isn't a lot of buses in China. When I was in Shanghai, there is bus stops on nearly every street corner and bus of some sort would come by every 2 minutes or so. The problem is it's very very crowded, see picture below... So rail system is needed just to relive the load on bus systems
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Old August 9th, 2012, 03:24 AM   #2222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luhai

You make it sound like there isn't a lot of buses in China. When I was in Shanghai, there is bus stops on nearly every street corner and bus of some sort would come by every 2 minutes or so. The problem is it's very very crowded, see picture below... So rail system is needed just to relive the load on bus systems
Yes, you really just reiterated my point. I was specifically talking about rapid bus systems. There are places in the city where improved bus services could be just as effective as extending the Metro in the inner city. That's all I was pointing out.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 04:33 AM   #2223
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Yes, you really just reiterated my point. I was specifically talking about rapid bus systems. There are places in the city where improved bus services could be just as effective as extending the Metro in the inner city. That's all I was pointing out.
BRT is only good when the corridor has LRT-like demand. So unless you are Guangzhou lots of shanghai streets can't get any BRT close to metro capacity. With today's metro lines packed to the grills like shanghai's buses (Pretty much lines 1-4, 6, 8 are pretty saturated at their current configuration) I think the Chinese have their priorities correct. Build the high capacity backbone first, then, when the system is mature feed it with LRTs/BRTs/etc. Then like Line 1 the lines will carry enough people to reach minimum efficient scale to be more cost effective. Its better to future proof with a subway line than to wish you had a subway line there 10 years down the road.

Last edited by saiho; November 30th, 2012 at 12:50 AM. Reason: grammer
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Old August 9th, 2012, 05:58 AM   #2224
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During this stay of mine, I used only 72-hour tickets, which are new for Shanghai metro. They cost only 45 yuan. Paying every trip for tourists may cost a lot when traveling much. During my previous stay they were only 24-hour tickets. It was in December and January.

I don't understand why they don't make month tickets for residents. Or, they don't want to cut their profit?
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Old August 9th, 2012, 06:02 AM   #2225
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By the way, does everybody know that Shanghai boasts not only electric city buses but also, which is very innovative, super capacitor city buses? I saw lots of them not very far from Yu Yuan. There, right close to the Bund, there is a station of recharge. I took some pictures and will post them here in the future.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 10:48 AM   #2226
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When line 16 and line 22 will be open?
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Old August 9th, 2012, 11:29 AM   #2227
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Same problems

New York

The budget deficit of the MTA is a growing crisis for the organization as well as New York city and state residents and legislature. The MTA currently holds $31 billion in debt and it also suffers from a $900 million gap in its operating budget for 2011.


South Korea

During the last five years, the system has cost the country’s seven metropolitan subway systems 1.58 trillion won ($1.34 billion) in losses. Last year alone, this system put Korean subway operators 343.4 billion in debt.


London

London's Tube disrupted on first day of athletics
Signal failures caused severe delays on a key London Underground line connecting the city centre with the Olympic Park, transport chiefs said on Friday, the first day of athletics at the Games.
The Central line was partly suspended in east London — home to the Olympic Stadium — for more than an hour at the height of the morning rush hour, on what is is expected to be the busiest day so far. Severe delays continued across the whole the line, which runs east to west across London and is one of the busiest on the network.

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Old August 9th, 2012, 11:37 PM   #2228
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And how is it in Singapore? I mean those guys do do things right when it comes to transport... or anything else.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 12:47 AM   #2229
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Quote:
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When line 16 and line 22 will be open?
I too and curious to know. apparently 16 will open next year and ditto in line 22.

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And how is it in Singapore? I mean those guys do do things right when it comes to transport... or anything else.
well like HK they make money and the system seems to be as well run as the MTR.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 01:43 AM   #2230
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Some people say part of line 16 and 22 will open late this year, along with an extension of some existing lines, making 28 stations in total.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 12:10 PM   #2231
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That's what i've found

From Wikipedia (2012):

Opening of Line 12 (13km), 13 (8km) e 22 (56km).


Any updated news?

Last edited by George08; August 10th, 2012 at 12:16 PM.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 11:49 PM   #2232
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Yes, you really just reiterated my point. I was specifically talking about rapid bus systems. There are places in the city where improved bus services could be just as effective as extending the Metro in the inner city. That's all I was pointing out.
I took BRT while I was in Jinan, it really don't feel different from any other buses. Fewer stops that all, still took 30 minute from HSR rail station to regular rail station. With metro, I recon it will only take 10 mintes, less than 10km distance between the two.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 12:14 AM   #2233
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In my opinion, shanghai should also pay more attention to LRT, but classic LRT, not the way Zhanjiang tram was built (Translohr).

I will soon post pictures of electric buses in Shanghai as well as tone of he most advanced technology applied now, which is super capacitor buses. And I had a chance to see how these buses recharged their super capacitors.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 02:40 PM   #2234
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Yes. Metros cannot earn net profits because of huge capital expenditure. Most of the metros cannot even recover their daily expenses (operational expenses). Only the metros described by Saiho (Hong Kong, Taipei, Osaka, Singapore, Tokyo and Delhi) are able to recover at least their operational expenses, that is, they are operationally profitable.

However, it is not just about financial benefits. There are far more economic and social benefits because of metros which go unaccounted, such as, time saving, less pollution, less accidents on roads, less fuel consumption, job creation, etc. All the metros in this world be economically profitable, I believe.
I was just discussing the issue of metro profitability with my fellow local forum member earlier. Singapore's SMRT, Japan's Tokyo Metro and JR East and Hong Kong's MTR are profitable not because their rail operations are making money. Having looked through their financial statements, ticket sales revenue alone would've never made them money. What all these profitable entities have in common is ancillary revenue from letting retail spaces within stations, license fees to allow other operators to run services into their network, to actual residential and commercial property which is where the money's at. MTR for example co-developed and co-own Hong Kong's ICC and Elements mall, JR East and Tokyo Metro have their LUMINE and Echika retail malls, as does Singapore.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 05:32 AM   #2235
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I was just discussing the issue of metro profitability with my fellow local forum member earlier. Singapore's SMRT, Japan's Tokyo Metro and JR East and Hong Kong's MTR are profitable not because their rail operations are making money. Having looked through their financial statements, ticket sales revenue alone would've never made them money. What all these profitable entities have in common is ancillary revenue from letting retail spaces within stations, license fees to allow other operators to run services into their network, to actual residential and commercial property which is where the money's at. MTR for example co-developed and co-own Hong Kong's ICC and Elements mall, JR East and Tokyo Metro have their LUMINE and Echika retail malls, as does Singapore.
here is what I said a few pages back

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

look at HK @ 149% so basically for every 1 dollar of fare MTR profits 49 cents pile on real estate, consultancy, BTO, and operation services and thats the profit you commonly see get posted.
also applies to Tokyo metro, Osaka subway, Taipei MRT and Singapore MRT.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 06:44 AM   #2236
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Do not forget that Shanghai metro actually doesn't have any tickets that allow to ride cheaper. I mean residents usually pay each time they enter. And if the ride is quite long it may cost up to 7 RMB. The way to and back is 14 RMB already.

There are, of course, tickets for 24 hours (18 RMB) and 72 hours (45 RMB) but as I can guess residents do not buy them for the travel 2 times a day only: to work and back home. These two types of tickets are more popular among tourists. And compared to other prices, food for example, these tickets are not cheap in fact. So, maybe Shanghai metro is profitable indeed.

+ once again, Shanghai metro is pervaded by shops, stores, virtual supermarkets, ads, banks, ATMs, vending machines etc.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #2237
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Do not forget that Shanghai metro actually doesn't have any tickets that allow to ride cheaper. I mean residents usually pay each time they enter. And if the ride is quite long it may cost up to 7 RMB. The way to and back is 14 RMB already.

There are, of course, tickets for 24 hours (18 RMB) and 72 hours (45 RMB) but as I can guess residents do not buy them for the travel 2 times a day only: to work and back home. These two types of tickets are more popular among tourists. And compared to other prices, food for example, these tickets are not cheap in fact. So, maybe Shanghai metro is profitable indeed.

+ once again, Shanghai metro is pervaded by shops, stores, virtual supermarkets, ads, banks, ATMs, vending machines etc.
There is some scheme that will reward you for very frequent use, though I don't understand it....I would commonly check my balance and find 4.5RMB or something (which is weird, because it is 3RMB + 1RMB per km, right?). So, I started paying attention to the reader when I scanned my card and would often see it charging me only 1.10 or something instead of 3. Granted, it was an occasional thing...Maybe it's something based on km accrued? Or it was just an error
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Old August 12th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #2238
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When I used to have this card, it didn't give me any discount. it was merely convenient to pay with it and that's all.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 09:26 PM   #2239
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It's something like 10% off for spending over ¥70 within one calender month. Exactly how it's done I'm not entirely sure.

As for profitability, all I'll say is mass transit makes sense for big cities stupid. While not operationally profitable the benefit for the wider economy is beyond obvious. Shanghai's urban rail capacity and coverage are still very low compared to similar cities like Paris, London and Tokyo, and there's a loooooooooooong way to go before one can talk about overbuilding.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 09:30 PM   #2240
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I wonder what is Shanghai's strategy on faster rapid rail routes? Beijing has been implementing suburban rail system. Other cities around the world have fast railways crossing city centers (Paris RER, Munich S-Bahn). Right now traveling longer distances (e.g. from Pudong Airport to, say, Hongqiao airport) takes very long. Are there concrete plans to extent the Maglev line? or build some faster metro lines which would allow to go longer distances with few stops?
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