daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 12th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #2241
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,204
Likes (Received): 1766

Maglev extension is a one-time political hot potato that's been firmed brushed under the carpet. As for commuter railway services, as long as the current governance system doesn't change and the power hungry MOR remains in existence don't expect that to make any serious inroads.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 12th, 2012, 09:57 PM   #2242
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,972
Likes (Received): 6909

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Maglev extension is a one-time political hot potato that's been firmed brushed under the carpet. As for commuter railway services, as long as the current governance system doesn't change and the power hungry MOR remains in existence don't expect that to make any serious inroads.
What has MoR to do with that? Are they somehow stopping rail projects from implementation within cities? What is the reason for that?

And why Maglev is a hot potato? It's half done now and all it needs is the track to get built to Hongqiao where even the station platforms have been built for it. And unlike current service terminating somewhere away from main city areas it would make a very good sense connecting two major airports and main city areas along the way. What's the problem there? Right now it's more of a tourist attraction than a means of transport and it's not a good idea to just leave it at that. Isn't it anyone's duty to keep the face by just making it work right instead of having a half-built tourist attraction?
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #2243
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,204
Likes (Received): 1766

There's a lot of local opposition (NIMBYs, yes they do exist in China, not in small numbers either) usually centred around perceived radiation hazards. The current lot of municipal government leaders are a rather conservative lot, much less ambitious than the previous lot that got chucked into prisons (well there's a lot more to that but you get the gist).

Regarding commuter travel, the main problem is that it is a bit beyond the capability of local authorities as you are talking about cross-boundary services. The MOR is far too proud to go into local nitty gritties. Where commuter routes do exists they rely on existing corridors (of which there are generally very few) being in place, and even in those situations ticketing and other procedures can be pretty backwards. Shanghai Metro will have line 11 crossing Shanghai's boundary going into Anting, but that's the exception not the rule.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #2244
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,972
Likes (Received): 6909

Radiation hazards from Maglev? Why not AIDS or Bird Flu? I think Einstein was right about things that are infinite.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2012, 11:01 PM   #2245
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 381

Well, they can build maglev underground like a subway So no radiation
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2012, 11:12 PM   #2246
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,972
Likes (Received): 6909

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Well, they can build maglev underground like a subway So no radiation
But you can still get AIDS from that!
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2012, 04:58 AM   #2247
saiho
Registered User
 
saiho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 多伦多/多倫多
Posts: 1,357
Likes (Received): 1286

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Do not forget that Shanghai metro actually doesn't have any tickets that allow to ride cheaper. I mean residents usually pay each time they enter. And if the ride is quite long it may cost up to 7 RMB. The way to and back is 14 RMB already.

There are, of course, tickets for 24 hours (18 RMB) and 72 hours (45 RMB) but as I can guess residents do not buy them for the travel 2 times a day only: to work and back home. These two types of tickets are more popular among tourists. And compared to other prices, food for example, these tickets are not cheap in fact. So, maybe Shanghai metro is profitable indeed.

+ once again, Shanghai metro is pervaded by shops, stores, virtual supermarkets, ads, banks, ATMs, vending machines etc.
i think the ticketing system is fine as is. When you are one of the fastest expanding metros on the world I don't think you can make money in the short run. I do believe that the shanghai metro has a chance at making money in the long run when the expansion master plan is done and ridership has matured and a lifestyle has been built around the lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Maglev extension is a one-time political hot potato that's been firmed brushed under the carpet. As for commuter railway services, as long as the current governance system doesn't change and the power hungry MOR remains in existence don't expect that to make any serious inroads.
Line 22 is a full on commuter/regional rail line and it shares tracks with MOR. maybe they are slowly letting commuter/regional services use their tracks as more long haul intercity moves to PDLs and such.
saiho no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2012, 10:00 AM   #2248
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,059
Likes (Received): 101379

Pansori, traveling from Pudong to Hongqiao is only 1 hour 35 minutes. For over 60 km it is not that bad result considering metro. I guess average speed of Paris RER is not much higher.

And then I don't think the traffic between the 2 airports is so heavy to justify the construction of a new express line.
__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库


Highcliff, forumaniac, Zaz965 liked this post
_Night City Dream_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2012, 02:08 PM   #2249
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,059
Likes (Received): 101379

Xujiahui station, line 1. An old Siemens train arrives.

__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库


Highcliff, forumaniac, Zaz965 liked this post
_Night City Dream_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #2250
phoenixboi08
Registered User
 
phoenixboi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,550
Likes (Received): 798

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT
As for profitability, all I'll say is mass transit makes sense for big cities stupid. While not operationally profitable the benefit for the wider economy is beyond obvious. Shanghai's urban rail capacity and coverage are still very low compared to similar cities like Paris, London and Tokyo, and there's a loooooooooooong way to go before one can talk about overbuilding.
I agree (I think anyone would); however, I do think it's worth talking about, considering the size - and future proposed size - of the system. I honestly don't believe building 10 new lines is going to bump up their ridership a large deal (except for the outer areas, for sure), but will only make service smoother (i.e. alleviate congestion on other lines). This IS a concern, but I just wonder if a combination of other things could be just a effective and save them a lot of money in the process.

Also, I didn't realize some of those lines are envisioned as being commuter rail. Is it just 20 (or was it 22?).
__________________
MCRP '16
phoenixboi08 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2012, 05:59 PM   #2251
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,974
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Pansori, traveling from Pudong to Hongqiao is only 1 hour 35 minutes. For over 60 km it is not that bad result considering metro. I guess average speed of Paris RER is not much higher.

And then I don't think the traffic between the 2 airports is so heavy to justify the construction of a new express line.
But traffic from the few stops in between the two airports will be enough to justify it, because it will mean a quicker way to get to 2 airports, plus it will be like an express line for like 2 to 4 stations in the city itself.
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #2252
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,204
Likes (Received): 1766

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
I agree (I think anyone would); however, I do think it's worth talking about, considering the size - and future proposed size - of the system. I honestly don't believe building 10 new lines is going to bump up their ridership a large deal (except for the outer areas, for sure), but will only make service smoother (i.e. alleviate congestion on other lines). This IS a concern, but I just wonder if a combination of other things could be just a effective and save them a lot of money in the process.

Also, I didn't realize some of those lines are envisioned as being commuter rail. Is it just 20 (or was it 22?).
Both the current and proposed sizes of the system are small in comparison to Shanghai's population and economy. Personally I don't think they are building the system too fast on the whole (maybe in the run-up period to Expo 2010 when planning and construction were a little rushed, but the pace has considerably slowed down since then).

A lot of lines are seriously overloaded and congestion relief can't come sooner. There is an awful lot of suppressed demand there just needn't be worries that trains won't get filled. The business case for any planned line is strong, and the only alternatives should be in the form of interim solutions before those lines can be constructed, and they shouldn't be used to justify delaying the permanent schemes. Those temporary solutions would prove insufficient in the medium to long run anyway.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2012, 08:10 PM   #2253
phoenixboi08
Registered User
 
phoenixboi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,550
Likes (Received): 798

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Both the current and proposed sizes of the system are small in comparison to Shanghai's population and economy. Personally I don't think they are building the system too fast on the whole (maybe in the run-up period to Expo 2010 when planning and construction were a little rushed, but the pace has considerably slowed down since then).

A lot of lines are seriously overloaded and congestion relief can't come sooner. There is an awful lot of suppressed demand there just needn't be worries that trains won't get filled. The business case for any planned line is strong, and the only alternatives should be in the form of interim solutions before those lines can be constructed, and they shouldn't be used to justify delaying the permanent schemes. Those temporary solutions would prove insufficient in the medium to long run anyway.
Good point. I just...am not sold on the need for some of the new lines in the inner city. It seems a bit much imo. It just seemed that their issues are about crowding during peak times...which is where I think commuter/express lines would do more to alleviate for the same (or less) cost than building several new lines. I understand that Shanghai is a large city, but I still believe less can be more. Isn't a leaner system better - in terms of both service and management?
phoenixboi08 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2012, 12:46 AM   #2254
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,204
Likes (Received): 1766

Which new lines do you think are surplus to requirement anyway?

I agree express lines should be looked at, but they should be on top of, not instead of current metro proposals.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #2255
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,972
Likes (Received): 6909

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Pansori, traveling from Pudong to Hongqiao is only 1 hour 35 minutes. For over 60 km it is not that bad result considering metro. I guess average speed of Paris RER is not much higher.

And then I don't think the traffic between the 2 airports is so heavy to justify the construction of a new express line.
Even if it's half-built already?
And no 1.5 hours between two airports doesn't sound like a great idea. Sounds like a hassle to be honest. That would be acceptable in a city which has crumbling and outdated system based on 19th century infrastructure (like London) but certainly not in a city which is supposedly trying to build an efficient and comprehensive public transport system in the 21st century.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2012, 04:41 AM   #2256
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,844
Likes (Received): 18132

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Even if it's half-built already?
And no 1.5 hours between two airports doesn't sound like a great idea. Sounds like a hassle to be honest. That would be acceptable in a city which has crumbling and outdated system based on 19th century infrastructure (like London) but certainly not in a city which is supposedly trying to build an efficient and comprehensive public transport system in the 21st century.
Well, a trip from Narita to Haneda can easily take 1h30 even on their world-class train network.

Hongqiao is still primarily a domestic airport with very few international flights, while Pudong also has domestic flights. At this point, perhaps airport-to-airport transfers are not that common but building a dedicated express rail line between the two will likely be very expensive. I'd rather they focus on adding subway lines within the city.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!

Highcliff liked this post
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2012, 11:43 AM   #2257
hmmwv
Registered User
 
hmmwv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,391
Likes (Received): 420

I think an expressline between Hongqiao and Pudong is absolutely necessary and overdue. There are a lot of arriving international passengers who needs to transfer to smaller cities which only have flights to Hongqiao, or more importantly, people who needs to ride HSR to Yangtze River Delta cities. It's ridiculous that it takes one and half hours to get from Pudong to Hongqiao (60km), and then 1:15 to get to Nanjing (300km+) via HSR. In addition this expressline should have a station at People's Square (provided that it's built as a deep bore tunnel so route is not an issue), the traffic generated by people who needs a quick direct access to the center of the city will help justify the construction.
__________________
The building under construction next to Shanghai Tower is Oriental Financial Center. The "plot" next to Jinmao is reserved green belt and no skyscraper will be built there.
hmmwv no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2012, 01:36 PM   #2258
BarbaricManchurian
来了就是深圳人
 
BarbaricManchurian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Worcester
Posts: 5,502
Likes (Received): 6892

Yeah seriously with the HSR station already there it sounds like a no-brainer. If they can't agree on maglev rebuild it in conventional rail, no big deal imo.
BarbaricManchurian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2012, 02:11 PM   #2259
George08
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 175
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddes View Post
I was just discussing the issue of metro profitability with my fellow local forum member earlier. Singapore's SMRT, Japan's Tokyo Metro and JR East and Hong Kong's MTR are profitable not because their rail operations are making money. Having looked through their financial statements, ticket sales revenue alone would've never made them money. What all these profitable entities have in common is ancillary revenue from letting retail spaces within stations, license fees to allow other operators to run services into their network, to actual residential and commercial property which is where the money's at. MTR for example co-developed and co-own Hong Kong's ICC and Elements mall, JR East and Tokyo Metro have their LUMINE and Echika retail malls, as does Singapore.
Thant's the point i'm trying to understand...

These systems are just operationally profitable because their activity is actually linked to the real estate business?
George08 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #2260
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,973
Likes (Received): 388

Ground level streetcars

How much ground level streetcars need to be added to Shanghai?
http://www.shanghaidaily.org/nsp/Met...%2Bstreetcars/
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
metro, shanghai, tram

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium