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Old August 15th, 2012, 02:20 AM   #2261
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Well, a trip from Narita to Haneda can easily take 1h30 even on their world-class train network.

Hongqiao is still primarily a domestic airport with very few international flights, while Pudong also has domestic flights. At this point, perhaps airport-to-airport transfers are not that common but building a dedicated express rail line between the two will likely be very expensive. I'd rather they focus on adding subway lines within the city.
Expensive? It's already got the stations built at both ends. Technology is there too. All it needs is the track and another one or two stations in Lujiazui and People's Square. It's not like building a new line from scratch.

At this point it has to be said, however, that the Maglev as it is today doesn't make much sense. Why didn't they build it at least to Lujiazui which could generate much higher passenger volumes? Right now it connects airport to what? It can't be left as it is. Most realistically it should be extended to Hongqiao or if it is indeed too expensive an not viable then they should rebuild it as ordinary train or rapid metro line with only two stops inbetween. Even a 160km/h max speed rail service would be fast enough to make the transfer smooth and efficient.

Last edited by Pansori; August 15th, 2012 at 02:27 AM.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 03:31 AM   #2262
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The maglev technology used is very expensive per kilometer.


China is working on getting their own maglev technology going, though, so perhaps in the future it will become cheaper to finish this line, as right now the line is just a novelty item.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 03:44 AM   #2263
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Thant's the point i'm trying to understand...

These systems are just operationally profitable because their activity is actually linked to the real estate business?
As I have stated for the 3rd time those 5 systems are operationally profitable on rail alone they have a farebox recovery ratio of over 100%. Real estate revenue does not go in the farebox, the real estate business brings in extra profit.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 04:45 AM   #2264
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I think an expressline between Hongqiao and Pudong is absolutely necessary and overdue. There are a lot of arriving international passengers who needs to transfer to smaller cities which only have flights to Hongqiao, or more importantly, people who needs to ride HSR to Yangtze River Delta cities. It's ridiculous that it takes one and half hours to get from Pudong to Hongqiao (60km), and then 1:15 to get to Nanjing (300km+) via HSR. In addition this expressline should have a station at People's Square (provided that it's built as a deep bore tunnel so route is not an issue), the traffic generated by people who needs a quick direct access to the center of the city will help justify the construction.
Most people who connects from intercontinental flights with a transfer, I would believe are at transiting through PEK, rather than a PVG - SHA transfer? Look at London, it's a mission to get from LHR to LGW or in New York JFK - EWR, or in Tokyo NRT - HND.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 05:05 AM   #2265
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Most people who connects from intercontinental flights with a transfer, I would believe are at transiting through PEK, rather than a PVG - SHA transfer? Look at London, it's a mission to get from LHR to LGW or in New York JFK - EWR, or in Tokyo NRT - HND.
And that is certainly not saying anything good about transport systems of those cities. Shanghai should not follow bad examples. It should follow good examples. Or perhaps even be setting good examples.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 08:37 AM   #2266
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post


China is working on getting their own maglev technology going, though, so perhaps in the future it will become cheaper to finish this line, as right now the line is just a novelty item.

Bingo!

I think this is exactly what is going to happen. We'll wait and see...
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Old August 15th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #2267
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post


The maglev technology used is very expensive per kilometer.


China is working on getting their own maglev technology going, though, so perhaps in the future it will become cheaper to finish this line, as right now the line is just a novelty item.
Originally, the line was to continue to Hongqiao Station and to Hangzhou...they ended up not doing that, and considering they built a traditional High Speed Line instead probably signals those plans, at least as they were proposed, are dead...

The quickest way to make the line useful, however, would be to re-route/extend it to the Disneyland Park (especially considering they are thinking about allowing visitors to the park visa less entry - or a special visa/permit). And possibly, down the road, eventually continue to Hongqiao. Though, I see this more as an opportunity to facilitate [domestic] visitors to Shanghai that arrive through Hongqiao than airport-to-airport transfers per say.

* Here is the plan circa 2007
and the updated current "short-term" plan.

Last edited by TIDE; April 6th, 2014 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Reference
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Old August 15th, 2012, 06:23 PM   #2268
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Why Subways Suffer Losses

Why Subways Suffer Losses
2012-08-14 16:31
By Ye Jingyu (叶静宇)
Nation, Page 10
Issue No. 582
Aug 13, 2012
Translated by Tang Xiangyang
Original article: The Economic Observer Chinese]

Summary:Hangzhou will soon put its first subway line into operation, but neither passengers or operators are happy with the pricing systems being put forward by the local government.



*This is an abstract of the front page story from this week's edition of The Economic Observer, for more highlights from the EO print edition, click here.

On Aug 3, Hangzhou's Municpal Pricing Authority held a public hearing into the proposed ticket prices for the city's No. 1 subway line, that is set to begin operation on Oct 1 this year.

As the metro line will connect the downtown area of Hangzhou with the outer suburbs, the city has decided to implement a pricing system that takes distance travelled into account.

Two pricing systems were put forward at the hearing, the first charges passengers 2 yuan for trips that are under 4 kilometers and then has a peak price of 9 yuan for the longest possible travel route. The second pricing system proposal would see passengers pay 3 yuan for any trip below 6 kilometers and a maximum 8 yuan ticket charge for a single ride.

Despite the fact that these two pricing plans had been published 15 days ahead of the price hearing, most of those taking part in the hearing could not restrain their anger - the way they saw it, both of these proposals meant that the price of a ride on Hangzhou's subway would be more than in Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong, making it the most expensive in the country.

The representative of the subway operator wasn't happy either. According to Tang Zhinong (唐志侬), the general manager of the Hangzhou Metro Group Operating Company (杭州市地铁集团运营公司), "the costs of constructing the Hangzhou Metro were high, the production costs are high, there were a lot of problems, yet no matter which of the two pricing proposals we adopt, the subway company is going to make huge losses."

The difficulties of making subway lines run at a profit have existed for over ten years and, up until now, no solution has been found.

It's obvious that simply relying on revenue from ticket sales is not enough to cover the sizable operating costs.

Attempts to replicate the Hong Kong model have also proved unsuccessful, with most city governments instead being forced to pay out billions of yuan each year to subsidize operations.

Profits and Losses

There are currently 12 cities in China that have operating subway systems. All of these cities use one of three types of ticketing system.

The Beijing model which charges passengers one flat ticket price for all travel - i.e in Beijing you pay 2 yuan for a ticket no matter whether you're only going one stop or all the way to the otherside of town. Then there is the Nanjing or Chengdu model which has different prices for different zones of travel - so for example on Nanjing's Line 1, you can travel the first 8 stations for 2 yuan and then for each 4 additional stations you pay and extra 1 yuan. Then there is the Shanghai and Guangzhou model which calculates the ticket price according to distance travelled.

Hangzhou plans to implement the same kind of system that is used in Shanghai and Guangzhou.

According to estimates prepared by the Hangzhou Metro Group, the new subway line will see about 80 million passenger trips in 2013 and this means that revenue from ticket sales should come to about 330 million yuan.

However, according to the cost estimates produced by the Hangzhou Pricing Bureau, investment in the Line 1 project came to a total of 23.6 billion yuan and total costs for 2013, 2014 and 2015 would come to 1.86 billion, 1.92 billion and 1.98 billion yuan respectively, of these costs, opertaing costs for the three years will come to 578 million, 639 million and 700 million yuan respectively.

If we calculate this according to the number of individual trips, operating costs work out at 7.2 yuan per passenger-trip in 2013, 6.92 yuan in 2014 and 6.07 yuan in 2015.

According to the two pricing systems that have been put forward, revenue from ticket sales would only cover close to 18 percent of total annual costs and almost 57 percent of total annual operating costs.

The city will not be able to rely on ticket revenue alone to cover the costs of operating the subway line.

"Even if we don't take any depreciation into account and only consider the operating costs and fiscal expenditure, each year we'll need to pay about 1 billion yuan in subsidies," an official from the Hangzhou Price Bureau told the EO by phone.

Hangzhou isn't the only city that relies on government subsidies.

According to the Shenzhen Metro Group's 2010 annual report, the company's operating revenue in 2010 was 860 million yuan, once we take off the 730 million yuan in operating costs and tax and various other costs, the company had an operating loss of 204 million yuan in 2010.

However, with thanks to a one off payment of 834 million yuan of "external revenue," the company was able to report an total profit of 629 million yuan.

According to a note in the report, 831 million yuan of this non-operating income came from government subsidies.

At a press conference held to unveil the 2010 annual report, a senior representative from the Shenzhen Metro Group told the media that the subway's losses were primarily due to ticket prices. Shenzhen's average per capita subway fare is 2.8 yuan per trip, while the actual cost is as much as 5.9 yuan per passenger-trip.

Beijing is also reported to lose about one billion yuan each year running its system.

Only one of Shanghai's subway lines operates at a profit.

But there are successful cases. In Nanjing it costs two to four yuan to ride the subway, which attracts over a million passengers each day.

Nanjing's subway system also employs less people per kilometer than other subway systems in the country.

In Hong Kong, the subway company also develops property along the subway lines. Both cities have profitable subway systems.

However, Hangzhou's subway tickets can't be priced too high because the system is chiefly aimed at discouraging people from driving. The subway company isn't allowed to develop properties either.

The Difficulties in Replicating the Hong Kong Model

But there is hope. The Hangzhou Subway Group has formed an agreement with Mass Transit Railway (MTR) – Hong Kong's subway operator - to let the latter operate Hangzhou's line for 25 years. It's still not clear whether the city can replicate Hong Kong's success.

MTR was similarly invited to operate Shenzhen's subway. After some initial trouble with the National Development and Reform Commission, it bought over 200,000 square meters of land to develop subway lines and properties. However, experts doubt it will succeed. MTR was able to get cheap land in Hong Kong to develop its system, but the land it bought in Shenzhen was from auction and thus, much more expensive.

Yao Yanfang (姚艳芳), an intern with the EO, also contributed to this story.
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I'd like to find out what the actual riding cost would be in Shanghai. I imagine it's actually quite near what it should be (it's probably between 5-8RMB). Anyways, this seemed to be a bit more fleshed out than the previous article.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 07:50 PM   #2269
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^
Please, post it to the Hangzhou subway thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...1041465&page=3
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Old August 15th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #2270
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^
Please, post it to the Hangzhou subway thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...1041465&page=3
This was in regards to the discussion of the costs of operating metro systems...the article also mentions Shanghai. Moreover, the point is that it has implications for developments in Shanghai, which is why I posted it here.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 11:01 PM   #2271
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In which year shall metro line 11 be built between Shanghai and Suzhou?
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Old August 16th, 2012, 07:01 AM   #2272
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Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
This was in regards to the discussion of the costs of operating metro systems...the article also mentions Shanghai. Moreover, the point is that it has implications for developments in Shanghai, which is why I posted it here.
I mean you can duplicate it in that thread, too, as there is much about Hangzhou in the article.
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Old August 16th, 2012, 06:44 PM   #2273
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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
I mean you can duplicate it in that thread, too, as there is much about Hangzhou in the article.
I thought you were implying I should post it there and not here. Sorry.
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Old August 16th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #2274
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Bicycle rental program to spread
Shanghai Daily
Aug 15, 2012

THE bicycle rental service piloted at suburban Metro stations will be available around the city as Shanghai's transport authority pledged to find more ways to get around to residents working and living near traffic hubs.

The government will focus on solving the problem of "the last 1 kilometer," long the focus of complaints by residents who see a lack of options for the last part of their journeys, according to the local development and reform commission.

The bikes are now available at some districts like Minhang and the Pudong New Area.

Most of the bike sites are set close to Metro stations for passengers to rent for going home about 1 kilometer or more away from subway hubs.

Some sites, like the ones in downtown Jing'an District, are mainly for tourists. Similar rental programs have been used in other cities like Hangzhou.

The bike rental fees at Metro stations are relatively low, no more than 1 yuan (16 US cents) for each ride, while fees for tourists are higher, up to 10 yuan.

The bicycle rental program has been implemented in the city for years, but it is still limited to some districts so far because local traffic operators find some bikes are not returned and others are broken during usage.

The riders are supposed to have a bike card and deposit some money, such as 100 yuan, in it, officials said.

The cost also is a consideration. It's estimated that 200,000 bikes are needed citywide and 500 million yuan would have to be invested for the equipment and construction, not to mention the repair fees.

Some bike rental facilities were not popular among Metro passengers, and were removed from stations.

However, the transportation demand is still huge as the Metro network stretches to suburban districts.

Yang Juan, a resident in suburban Jiading District, said better transportation is needed in Jiading's Anting area - Metro Line 11 links Jiading to downtown, but it's not enough.

The district traffic officials said they were doing research on supplying bicycles to the riders. Also, the district will lengthen bus operation times to match Metro operations.
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Old August 19th, 2012, 03:21 PM   #2275
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Toughest campaign yet to stop illegal cabs
Shanghai Daily
Aug 18, 2012

POLICE have set up 61 checkpoints around the city in their latest campaign to crack down on illegal taxis.

All cabs will be required to stop at the checkpoints, even if they have passengers inside, so that police officers can verify whether the cabbie has a valid license.

The campaign will last one month and officers are calling it the toughest yet to take so-called cloned cabs off city streets.

In the past, police relied on experience to detect suspicious taxis. They would then stop the cab for a check when it did not disturb traffic. This proved inefficient and risky, police said.

With the checkpoints it will take less than one minute for an officer to identify a licensed cab as they will be aided by high-tech equipment, officials said.

By the end of June, electronic tags had been installed on all licensed taxis to allow for instant identification. Police will use specially made personal digital assistants to verify the digital tabs during checks.

If police find fake taxi documents, they will detain the driver and impound the vehicle, officials said.

The checkpoints will be set up mainly in areas like Lujiazui and People's Square, where illegal cabs are known to operate. Most of the check points will be near on-off ramps for elevated roads and tunnel entrances, police said. The check points will be in effect daily during the campaign from 7pm until late at night.

Private vehicles will not be stopped for checks, police added.

Traffic police estimate there are 5,000 illegal taxis operating in the city.
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Old August 19th, 2012, 03:23 PM   #2276
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Toughest campaign yet to stop illegal cabs
Shanghai Daily
Aug 18, 2012

POLICE have set up 61 checkpoints around the city in their latest campaign to crack down on illegal taxis.

All cabs will be required to stop at the checkpoints, even if they have passengers inside, so that police officers can verify whether the cabbie has a valid license.

The campaign will last one month and officers are calling it the toughest yet to take so-called cloned cabs off city streets.

In the past, police relied on experience to detect suspicious taxis. They would then stop the cab for a check when it did not disturb traffic. This proved inefficient and risky, police said.

With the checkpoints it will take less than one minute for an officer to identify a licensed cab as they will be aided by high-tech equipment, officials said.

By the end of June, electronic tags had been installed on all licensed taxis to allow for instant identification. Police will use specially made personal digital assistants to verify the digital tabs during checks.

If police find fake taxi documents, they will detain the driver and impound the vehicle, officials said.

The checkpoints will be set up mainly in areas like Lujiazui and People's Square, where illegal cabs are known to operate. Most of the check points will be near on-off ramps for elevated roads and tunnel entrances, police said. The check points will be in effect daily during the campaign from 7pm until late at night.

Private vehicles will not be stopped for checks, police added.

Traffic police estimate there are 5,000 illegal taxis operating in the city.
The easiest thing to do is just ask WHY they're getting business in the first place
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Old August 19th, 2012, 06:08 PM   #2277
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I'd like to make a little observation of what I witnessed over my 10 day stay in Shanghai. Almost every time I was using metro I was seeing people jumping over ticket barriers. I know some people try to avoid paying for tickets but in Shanghai this somewhat caught my attention because this seemed to be rampant. Station staff didn't seem interested in observing this not to mention stopping or punishing the offenders. I wonder if this is really common and if authorities are aware of that?
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Old August 19th, 2012, 06:24 PM   #2278
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I'd like to make a little observation of what I witnessed over my 10 day stay in Shanghai. Almost every time I was using metro I was seeing people jumping over ticket barriers. I know some people try to avoid paying for tickets but in Shanghai this somewhat caught my attention because this seemed to be rampant. Station staff didn't seem interested in observing this not to mention stopping or punishing the offenders. I wonder if this is really common and if authorities are aware of that?
I've seen that too...I've also noticed that many people won't submit to the security checks, because those officials are not police officers (think of them as the TSA, just not as mean lol). I've been wondering what they can do to alleviate those things.

What have you seen in other metros in regards to this?
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Old August 19th, 2012, 06:46 PM   #2279
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I've seen that too...I've also noticed that many people won't submit to the security checks, because those officials are not police officers (think of them as the TSA, just not as mean lol). I've been wondering what they can do to alleviate those things.

What have you seen in other metros in regards to this?
I've never seen this in Singapore and only a few times in London (where I live). The latter may be due to heavy security staff presence in most stations. In Germany most (all?) metros don't even have ticket barriers.
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Old August 19th, 2012, 06:52 PM   #2280
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Traffic police estimate there are 5,000 illegal taxis operating in the city.
What are the alleged harms of illegal taxis?
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