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Old August 26th, 2012, 02:06 PM   #2321
hkskyline
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You don't get it, it's never really been about stopping terror. It's always about creating public-sector non-jobs and keeping checks on people. The government isn't interested in them being capable of doing the work right.

To 'do the job properly' you need people with the right attitude and the ability to make balanced judgments between identifying risks and not causing too much inconvenience. Even this is still beside the point as there's no way of achieving anything close to 100% coverage which is what's needed to actually prevent any bombing.
What makes you think the government intentionally decided to employ a few people per station to do nothing? I would think this makes little impact on the overall unemployment figure anyway, so why not add more platform handlers, who also don't do much but there are far more of them per station?

You still don't get the fact that our laws and enforcement capabilities are not designed to weed out 100% of all crime, or anything close to that figure. So why should we expect an X-ray machine and a few attendants to achieve close to 100% coverage?
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Old August 26th, 2012, 02:08 PM   #2322
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Just to underscore my point about traffic accidents being a bigger threat to Chinese life and limb than terrorists:

Reuters

One hundred thousand people killed in traffic accidents every year. That is more than Al Qaeda could kill in their wildest dreams. That is more than the atomic bombing of Nagasaki in 1945 which killed 60-80,000 people. While I oppose security checkpoints on roads for civil liberties reasons, if you're going to spend money on security checkpoints in order to save lives it would be more efficiently spend trying to catch drunk and unlicensed drivers. Improving rural roads and highways by widening them and adding shoulders and medians to prevent head-on collisions would be a better use of money that is being spent on random checks on metros.
Don't think traffic kills less in the West than terrorism. So the first ones to drop all security checks at airports are the Western countries, by your logic?
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Old August 26th, 2012, 02:19 PM   #2323
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Don't think traffic kills less in the West than terrorism. So the first ones to drop all security checks at airports are the Western countries, by your logic?
I've been a fierce critic of overspending on security in the United States. As I stated before, the U.S. overreacted right after 9/11 and posted guards everywhere. It was all very expensive and utterly pointless. When people calmed down and glanced at the balance sheet, they quickly scaled back. With the exception of Iraq, Syria, and Pakistan terrorism is just not that big a threat anywhere in the world.

I bet that with the exception of those three countries, terrorism would not appear in the top 100 causes of death and injury in any country. Things like heart disease, lung cancer, strokes, heart attacks, vehicle accidents, alcoholism, food poisoning, and allergic reactions to snake bites and bee stings kill more people than terrorists worldwide and certainly in China.

Terrorists love when the media and government over-react to their relatively puny attacks, it increases the terrorists' egos and encourages more attacks. We shouldn't indulge them by inconveniencing ourselves unnecessarily. Of course the police and intelligence agencies should still investigate and head terrorists off, something the U.S. has done very well in 9/11.
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Old August 26th, 2012, 06:50 PM   #2324
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Daily Mail-esque much.

Yes these people should be helped into jobs and there are ways to do it properly. I actually support the idea of the state maintaining or managing certain sectors which help reskilling people, as long as the jobs create actual wealth and act as a stepping stone for people to go up the job ladder. These Metro security jobs do nothing of the sort - they don't foster any kind of responsibility and are the employees are prematurely given powers they don't deserve. They just cause stress and misery to the travelling public and bring no benefit to society whatsoever.



You don't get it, it's never really been about stopping terror. It's always about creating public-sector non-jobs and keeping checks on people. The government isn't interested in them being capable of doing the work right.

To 'do the job properly' you need people with the right attitude and the ability to make balanced judgments between identifying risks and not causing too much inconvenience. Even this is still beside the point as there's no way of achieving anything close to 100% coverage which is what's needed to actually prevent any bombing.
Perhaps so. It is still better than paying them benefits for sitting at home while during the time they spend at "work" they would very likely engage in anti-social activities. It is mostly about human psychology than actual use of what they do. At least they have some routine and think they are working. They do undergo some kind of training and disciplining courses. Again, I'm not saying their job is of much use but it is better than leaving them homeless or paying them benefits.

P.S. Daily Mail is read by the sort of people I just described in Britain. Not by me
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Old August 26th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #2325
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Perhaps so. It is still better than paying them benefits for sitting at home while during the time they spend at "work" they would very likely engage in anti-social activities. It is mostly about human psychology than actual use of what they do. At least they have some routine and think they are working. They do undergo some kind of training and disciplining courses. Again, I'm not saying their job is of much use but it is better than leaving them homeless or paying them benefits.

P.S. Daily Mail is read by the sort of people I just described in Britain. Not by me
Well yes, it might 'still' be better than paying them benefits but why stop there when you can easily go a step further by steering them onto proper wealth-creation jobs? Why does need to be about human psychology than actual use of what they do?!
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Old August 26th, 2012, 10:53 PM   #2326
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Well yes, it might 'still' be better than paying them benefits but why stop there when you can easily go a step further by steering them onto proper wealth-creation jobs? Why does need to be about human psychology than actual use of what they do?!
But what else could they do? I saw lots of "policemen" who seem to be bored and do nothing, streetsweepers who were cleaning streets which already looked impossibly clean. There is a wide range of jobs where those people get employed and security at metro stations is just one of them. There are many of those people and you can't just employ everyone in wealth creating jobs. The influx of people from the countryside is massive and it is a challenging task to mainain things without causing social unrests. China seems to be doing pretty good regarding that. Once more wealth-creating jobs will be available, they can get transferred there. Try doing that with someone who's never done any job and has lived on benefits or simply on the street begging for money.

In any case I agree that security x ray checks as they are in metros in Shanghai and elsewhere are useless. They should rather tighten up the part of security that is responsible for fare evaders. I saw lots of those in Shanghai and I was rather surprised that this (seemingly) is not being addressed.
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Old August 26th, 2012, 10:59 PM   #2327
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It just requires a bit of thought and imagination to match demand for goods and services and supply of labour. Yes you can't do everything overnight but with the right training mechanisms in place you don't need to create jobs that inconvenient everyone.

Anyway I think we've strayed OT far enough.

Oh and lastly those people you describe actually read the Sun.
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Old August 26th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #2328
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Isn't there a new metro station planned for Lujiazui around the SWFC, Jin Mao, and ST? (a la People's Square metro station?)
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Old August 26th, 2012, 11:09 PM   #2329
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Isn't there a new metro station planned for Lujiazui around the SWFC, Jin Mao, and ST? (a la People's Square metro station?)
The only planned station I know of around there is the Lujiazui Station for future Line 14, which is to be located to the south of the current station for Line 2.
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Old August 26th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #2330
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The only planned station I know of around there is the Lujiazui Station for future Line 14, which is to be located to the south of the current station for Line 2.
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Old August 27th, 2012, 10:42 AM   #2331
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BTW it's really strange that only one line comes thought Lujiazui, as it is so dense and so popular.
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Old August 27th, 2012, 01:30 PM   #2332
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BTW it's really strange that only one line comes thought Lujiazui, as it is so dense and so popular.
Yeah, that is one of the big planning mysteries. Even when the 14 is finished there will still only be 2 lines for what is supposedly a 'world class financial centre'. I guess at a push you could say lines 4 and 9 touch Lujiazui.
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Old August 27th, 2012, 04:16 PM   #2333
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Yeah, that is one of the big planning mysteries. Even when the 14 is finished there will still only be 2 lines for what is supposedly a 'world class financial centre'. I guess at a push you could say lines 4 and 9 touch Lujiazui.
True, though the Century Avenue confluence is nearby.
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Old August 27th, 2012, 05:11 PM   #2334
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True, though the Century Avenue confluence is nearby.
It's still very far away though, 2 long-ish stops on Line 2.
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Old August 27th, 2012, 07:31 PM   #2335
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It's still very far away though, 2 long-ish stops on Line 2.
Does it take long time to travel between two stations? Going from People's Park to say Zhongshan Park, how long does it take? Does it feel that it's far? It's just 4 stations.
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Old August 29th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #2336
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People's square to Zhongshan Park takes about 15 mins. Not including buying tickets etc.

I noticed some people above were complaining about the secrity checks. All I have to say is Welcome to China where convenience is illegal! Just ignore it like I do, I don't think I have ever put a bag in that thing, even when going on vacation and have a ton of heavy baggage. Obey the laws like people obey traffic laws. If you can make a right on red without stopping or looking, you can walk right past that security check!
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Old August 31st, 2012, 05:19 AM   #2337
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Apart from the negligence part, I thought turning right on red is legal in Shanghai (I'm not driving in Shanghai though). But the subway security check thing is a joke, most people don't follow it and it's no problem!
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Old August 31st, 2012, 01:32 PM   #2338
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Apart from the negligence part, I thought turning right on red is legal in Shanghai (I'm not driving in Shanghai though). But the subway security check thing is a joke, most people don't follow it and it's no problem!
I think it's legal pretty much everywhere in China, apart from where there is a right-turn filter signal of course.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 12:09 PM   #2339
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Right, it's legal.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 01:22 PM   #2340
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Right is legal, but sometimes people thing going straight and turning left on the red light is also legal (especially for motorbikes) if there is not many cars on the road.. X ray security checks, I don't remember in Shanghai metro, but in the main line railway stations and bus terminals I was always asked to put my bag there and people don't mind doing that
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