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Old January 9th, 2013, 05:41 PM   #2501
phoenixboi08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
Personally, I'd classify the 'city' of Shanghai as everything within the Outer Ring Road. Everything outside of that could be considered suburban, though there are pockets of reasonably high density even outside the Outer Ring Road.
That would be the best way of putting it, roughly. But still include too much area that really isn't part of the urban core.

Satellite Image of Shanghai

I just don't think it's easy to describe to someone just how large this area is...and that there IS a lot of rural [non-urbanized] land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Thanks for detailed information about shanghai. Could you tell me then what are approximately sizes of the two cities in kilometers (North-South, East-West).
The area of the municipality of Beijing is 16,801.25 km2, and that of Shanghai is 6,340.5 km2. If we were looking at the central core ["city"] of both, then those figures would be more like 750 km2 and 288 kmē (if we classify it as Puxi rather than as in the figure from my other post of the commenter above - essentially, everything inside the Outer Ring Rd.) respectively.

Satellite image of Beijing


For comparison, Manhattan* is about 59.5 km2.

Satellite image of NYC

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*I didn't include all of NYC (all 5 burroughs), which is about 784 km2, as I think this is rather disputable. Much of Brooklyn, Queens, or the Bronx really wouldn't be included as part of the central core - though arguably they are part of the continuous urban area.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 06:27 PM   #2502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
Personally, I'd classify the 'city' of Shanghai as everything within the Outer Ring Road. Everything outside of that could be considered suburban, though there are pockets of reasonably high density even outside the Outer Ring Road.
Ok, then what would be this surface?

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Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
The area of the municipality of Beijing is 16,801.25 km2, and that of Shanghai is 6,340.5 km2. If we were looking at the central core ["city"] of both, then those figures would be more like 750 km2 and 288 kmē (if we classify it as Puxi rather than as in the figure from my other post of the commenter above - essentially, everything inside the Outer Ring Rd.) respectively.
288 sq km??? I've recenlty been to Shanghai Urban Planning Exhibition center. There I saw once again a stunning city layout. It was written that "central Shanghai" within outer ring is 660 sq km but still there are tall districts on both sides of it. 288 - is a figure that shocks me.

Moscow administratively is 1081 sq km and it is almost all built up but I don't have in impression it's much more than Shanghai. Especially when I saw both cities from observation decks.


Satellite image of Beijing


For comparison, Manhattan* is about 59.5 km2.

Satellite image of NYC

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*I didn't include all of NYC (all 5 burroughs), which is about 784 km2, as I think this is rather disputable. Much of Brooklyn, Queens, or the Bronx really wouldn't be included as part of the central core - though arguably they are part of the continuous urban area.[/QUOTE]
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Old January 9th, 2013, 06:35 PM   #2503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Ok, then what would be this surface?



288 sq km??? I've recenlty been to Shanghai Urban Planning Exhibition center. There I saw once again a stunning city layout. It was written that "central Shanghai" within outer ring is 660 sq km but still there are tall districts on both sides of it. 288 - is a figure that shocks me.

Moscow administratively is 1081 sq km and it is almost all built up but I don't have in impression it's much more than Shanghai. Especially when I saw both cities from observation decks.
[/QUOTE]

That's kind of the point I was trying to get across...if you're going to compare, it has to be a completely controlled comparison, which means contextualizing what you mean when you say "city." The criteria needs to be kind of standard. The reality is, it's usually not, so any comparison you make really won't always tell you much.
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Old January 9th, 2013, 06:49 PM   #2504
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Ok, just tell me how you got the figure of 288 sk km. It really sounds shocking to me.

BTW, satellite images do not show up.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 12:15 AM   #2505
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It does shows right click and open a new tap/window
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Old January 10th, 2013, 01:37 AM   #2506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Ok, just tell me how you got the figure of 288 sk km. It really sounds shocking to me.

BTW, satellite images do not show up.
It's one of the more widely agreed upon definitions of Shanghai's urban core (I don't remember the Chinese term they use) but it's essentially the 8 or so districts that make up Puxi - and the areas of Pudong that straddle the river.

The whole point I am making, is that Shanghai is like NYC in that it has an incredibly dense core and that quickly decreases once you reach the inner then outer suburbs. Beijing, however, is more like LA, it has a core that is not as dense, but the overall level of density doesn't change much once you enter those suburbs, which gives it a higher density overall because of the population distribution.

In other words, Beijing just has a larger Continuous Urban (Built Up) Area.

I'll have to check the photos later, I'm on my mobile phone now :-)
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Old January 10th, 2013, 12:58 PM   #2507
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Currently looking at Google maps for Beijing and Shanghai and it's really hard to believe that built-up area of Shanghai is 3 times less than that of Beijing as you have said. on Google maps they look like equal.
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Old January 10th, 2013, 01:40 PM   #2508
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Letīs have a look at the administrative divisions of county level by population density:
Over 15 000 people per square km:
Shanghai - 8 districts, from Hongkou (36306) to Changning (18031), the others are Huangpu, Xuhui, Jingan, Putuo, Zhabei and Yangpu. Combined area 289 square km, population 6,99 millions
Beijing - 2 districts, of Xicheng (26731) and Dongcheng (22635). Combined area 87 square km, population 2,16 millions
15 000 to 5000 people per square km:
Shanghai - 2 districts, of Baoshan (7029) and Minhang (6553). Combined area 642 square km, population 4,33 millions
Beijing - 4 districts, from Haidian (7702) to Shijingshan (6860), the others are Chaoyang and Fengtai. Combined area 1291 square km, population 9,56 millions
Total over 5000 people per square km:
Shanghai - combined area 931 square km, population 11,32 millions
Beijing - combined area 1378 square km, population 11,72 millions
5000 to 1000 people per square km:
Shanghai - 1 subprovincial level new area (Pudong, 4168) and 5 districts from Jiading (3169) to Jinshan (1250), the others are Songjiang, Qingpu and Fengxian. Combined area 4223 square km, population 10,99 millions
Beijing - 3 districts from Tongzhou (1361) to Changping (1162), the other is Daxing. Combined area 3312 square km, population 4,21 millions
Total over 1000 people per square km:
Shanghai - combined area 5154 square km, population 22,31 millions
Beijing - combined area 4690 square km, population 15,93 millions
Under 1000 people per square km:
Shanghai - Chongming county (594), area 1185 square km, population 0,70 millions
Beijing - 5 districts, from Shunyi (895) to Huairou (146), the others are Mentougou, Fangshan and Pinggu, and 2 counties Miyun (200) and Yanqing (160). Combined area 12126 square km, population 3,69 millions
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Old January 10th, 2013, 03:20 PM   #2509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Currently looking at Google maps for Beijing and Shanghai and it's really hard to believe that built-up area of Shanghai is 3 times less than that of Beijing as you have said. on Google maps they look like equal.
....Just read this and you'll get what I've been saying.

I'm only saying that the idea of what is an "urban area" is not the same everywhere. There is no one international standard. I was just employing one of the more popular ones...and using the example of NYC and LA to indicate, that in many ways, Beijing is similar to LA in that it really doesn't "sprawl" in the traditional sense of what we mean when we say that (low density) but Shanghai, like NYC, actually does (lower average density across the entire metro area).
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Old February 16th, 2013, 09:41 AM   #2510
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Blueprint of Shanghai's first rapid bus system announced
Shanghai Daily
2013-2-9

SHANGHAI will start to build its first Bus Rapid Transit, or BRT system, in Fengxian, Minhang and Pudong districts to ease traffic congestion and better assist transport for residents in the areas, according to the city's planning and land administrative bureau.

The bureau yesterday unveiled the design blueprint of the new BRT system, a faster and more efficient bus service with its own dedicated lanes inaccessible to other traffic. The new system will cover Nanqiao New Town in Fengxian and Oriental Sports Center in the Pudong New Area.

The length of the BRT line will be 33.5 kilometers with 17 stations, which is expected to help better serve more than 100,000 residents in the region.

The blueprint did not say exactly when the construction work will begin.

Shanghai traffic has continued to grow with more vehicles and commuting volumes. About 17 million people commute each day on average - 45 percent take buses while 36.6 percent use the Metro. Compared with the subway system, BRT has its advantage of relatively low costs.
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Old February 17th, 2013, 07:49 AM   #2511
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What not a classical articulated tram with much higher passenger capacity?
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Old February 17th, 2013, 09:58 AM   #2512
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The population is fairly small at 100k, so probably BRT will do for now.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 06:43 PM   #2513
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Thank god!

Now the 2nd and 3rd tier cities can give up the "地铁 or the highway" attitude and begin embracing alternative transit options.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 12:40 AM   #2514
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a city above 2 million should have a metro.

So Chengdu, Chongqing, Wuhan, Xi'an, Tianjin which are second tier cities with population more than 7 million each shouldn't have metros?
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Old February 19th, 2013, 06:51 AM   #2515
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Originally Posted by VECTROTALENZIS View Post
a city above 2 million should have a metro.

So Chengdu, Chongqing, Wuhan, Xi'an, Tianjin which are second tier cities with population more than 7 million each shouldn't have metros?
Oh, come off it. That is not my point...

It is simply par for the course for any city in China to pine for a metro because it will make them seem "modern," when in most cases improved services of what they already have would be more [cost] effective.

i.e. the district where Shanghai is trying this out, doesn't warrant them building a huge new metro line. It's ridiculous to continue doing that.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #2516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
Oh, come off it. That is not my point...

It is simply par for the course for any city in China to pine for a metro because it will make them seem "modern," when in most cases improved services of what they already have would be more [cost] effective.

i.e. the district where Shanghai is trying this out, doesn't warrant them building a huge new metro line. It's ridiculous to continue doing that.
I don't think any bus or tram improvements can effectively move a city of 7 million or more, and there are plenty of secondary cities with that sort of population in China.

Clearly, there is a consensus that having people drive everywhere like Americans do is not a sustainable solution for China's urban dwellers. Mass transport is the key, with rail being at the forefront.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #2517
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I don't think any bus or tram improvements can effectively move a city of 7 million or more, and there are plenty of secondary cities with that sort of population in China.

Clearly, there is a consensus that having people drive everywhere like Americans do is not a sustainable solution for China's urban dwellers. Mass transport is the key, with rail being at the forefront.
Firstly, please don't do employ that "cheap" meme that "Americans don't take transit/enjoy suburban development" thing... It's highly childish. I never insinuated that, and am insulted that you went there. I mean, come on, you're practically forcing words down my throat.

Secondly, I never said that metros were unnecessary. But that you don't need one everywhere and metros won't alleviate traffic nightmares (as Beijing will find out) because they're usually planned to connect nodes. That's what they're meant to do and that's how they work. I'm not saying no cities should build them, but that in many cases other modes would suffice.

If you've been to China, which I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have, you'll understand when I say that every city wants a metro usually only because it will make them look "modern," not always because it's entirely sensible to build a 10+ kilometer tunnel under a city that could be more adequately served with BRT/Light Rail.

Considering the vast majority of these systems end up having budget short falls (because it's priced as a Public Service not a Private Good), it should give some of these officials a little pause. Other modes can be just as effective and are much cheaper to maintain.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #2518
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Quote:
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Other modes can be just as effective and are much cheaper to maintain.
I agree for smaller cities, but the cities in China that are seriously planning subway are all more than 2 million inhabitants, as far as I know. I can't encourage them enough to build subways now, while it is still relatively cheap to build them.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #2519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
Firstly, please don't do employ that "cheap" meme that "Americans don't take transit/enjoy suburban development" thing... It's highly childish. I never insinuated that, and am insulted that you went there. I mean, come on, you're practically forcing words down my throat.

Secondly, I never said that metros were unnecessary. But that you don't need one everywhere and metros won't alleviate traffic nightmares (as Beijing will find out) because they're usually planned to connect nodes. That's what they're meant to do and that's how they work. I'm not saying no cities should build them, but that in many cases other modes would suffice.

If you've been to China, which I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have, you'll understand when I say that every city wants a metro usually only because it will make them look "modern," not always because it's entirely sensible to build a 10+ kilometer tunnel under a city that could be more adequately served with BRT/Light Rail.

Considering the vast majority of these systems end up having budget short falls (because it's priced as a Public Service not a Private Good), it should give some of these officials a little pause. Other modes can be just as effective and are much cheaper to maintain.
I think you are over beating that drum somewhat. A lot of these so-called secondary cities are more than half the size of London, and the last time I looked no city has been over provided for by metro compared to international norm. All infrastructure make book losses, but that's just accounting which don't take into account indirect benefits, much of which represent extra tax revenue to government coffers but which are hard to accurately measure.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 10:41 PM   #2520
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Is there any European 2 million+ city without a metro? I can't think of one immediately. In fact majority of 1-2 million aglomerations have one as well. Why would it, in the long run, be any different in China?
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