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Old February 26th, 2013, 06:19 PM   #2561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
Well, yeah. That's what I figured (they always come up with these "clever" little names for things).

It's really a commuter line - as I'd figured a lot of these new lines will be. So I wasn't sure when the other poster mentioned that it'd be a regular metro train.
It's really a BART line without the interlining. It combines metro standards and technology (3rd rail operation, complete grade separation, frequent service) with commuter rail reach and stop spacings.
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Old February 27th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #2562
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Will this line be partly overground? If so, when?
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Old February 28th, 2013, 12:27 AM   #2563
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Will this line be partly overground? If so, when?
The line is almost entirely elevated (that's one of the reasons they decided to use 3rd rail for visual pollution reasons). Its underground for Huinan, North Lingang Xincheng and Lingang Xincheng Stations.
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Old February 28th, 2013, 05:48 AM   #2564
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isn't Line 16 Longyang Rd interchange station underground?
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Old February 28th, 2013, 06:57 AM   #2565
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isn't Line 16 Longyang Rd interchange station underground?
I saw some renders showing its a 4 track elevated structure and here is a plan:



Of course things can change without me knowing
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Old February 28th, 2013, 08:26 PM   #2566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
The line is almost entirely elevated (that's one of the reasons they decided to use 3rd rail for visual pollution reasons). Its underground for Huinan, North Lingang Xincheng and Lingang Xincheng Stations.
That's cool! I love Shanghai elevated lines and I really regret that line 4 is undergound in Pudong.

By the way, what are the plans for 2013?
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Old March 1st, 2013, 04:45 AM   #2567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
I saw some renders showing its a 4 track elevated structure and here is a plan:

Of course things can change without me knowing
Thank you very much for the map. Yes it looks like a elevated station. I can imagine that it'll be a long walk people transfering from Line 16 to Line 7.

I just remembered I saw elevated tracks under construction from Luoshan Rd to Longyang Rd and it must be the U/C line 16 tracks leading to the elevated Longyang Rd line 16 station.
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Old March 1st, 2013, 10:19 AM   #2568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
The point is that Shaghai's core is extremely dense. Rail transport should be definitely isolated from all other traffic. So, onground lines are not a solution as it will be constantly disturbed by cars, trucks etc.

What do you mean by commuter railway lines and what would be their difference from existing subway lines many of which are elevated outside the very center? Just take into account that many metro trains in Shanghai metro are 140 meters long and those on lines 1 and 2 are 190! This is not at all European metro standards. So, I don't clearly see what you mean by commuter rails since existing metro lines go far away to rural communities.
If they do go to rural communities, do they actually need to be isolated from other traffic?
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Old March 2nd, 2013, 04:49 PM   #2569
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Sure. But my question was what was meant by "commuter rail" above if existing metro lines are what they are.
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Old March 2nd, 2013, 06:45 PM   #2570
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Quote:
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Sure. But my question was what was meant by "commuter rail" above if existing metro lines are what they are.
Something like I have in my hometown.

A suburb, Nõmme with population 38 000 and area 28 square km. The population of whole Tallinn is 400 000.

The commuter railway from Tallinn to Keila goes through Nõmme. For the first 2 km, the railway is separated from other traffic - not underground anywhere, not elevated on posts except at 2 of the 3 street crossings, which are all viaducts on that stretch, and also fenced - recently. The line is not exactly ground level because it is on an earthen embankment.

The first level crossing, on a sizable street, is just 3,7 km from Tallinn main station. The railway there is double track, electrified (3 kV DC), carries 35 passenger trains each direction on a weekday, typically 80 m long, plus freight trains.

From that point on, there is 1 more viaduct over a major road - but then no more. Throughout the suburb of Nõmme, the railway has 3 major road crossings, plus official pedestrian crossings. Plus - the railway has only short and recently added stretches of fences. Commonly the line separates streets on both sides of railway with no fences between them. No embankment slopes either.

After Pääsküla station, 11,1 km from Tallinn, the passenger train frequency is decreased to 27 trains on a weekday - and the line is narrowed to single track. Still electrified, still on ground level, still all crossings for cars and pedestrians on same level, and still no fences.

How much of the outskirts of Shanghai have the population density to benefit from this type of railways?
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Old March 3rd, 2013, 06:24 AM   #2571
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I think o. The outskirts it's worth developing trams, long articulated trams up to 50 m long as an inner community transport. But they should also develop their own metro system, it is not like Paris or Rome or London metros, it is actually a regional means of transport.

And then, in Shanghai trains do not have to run so rarely as passenger flow is really high and frequent.
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Old March 3rd, 2013, 09:26 AM   #2572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
I think o. The outskirts it's worth developing trams, long articulated trams up to 50 m long as an inner community transport.
How should these long trams differ from short trains?
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
But they should also develop their own metro system, it is not like Paris or Rome or London metros, it is actually a regional means of transport.
Does Shanghai contain separate centres which taken alone are big enough and separate enough to need separate metro systems?
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
And then, in Shanghai trains do not have to run so rarely as passenger flow is really high and frequent.
Where?

Take Chongming island.

700 000 people on the 1400 or so square km of Chongming county. But some of them live on Changxing and Hengsha islands - so how many people live on the 1041 square km Chongming island?

Chongming Island is 76 km long. And the bridge across Changxing island to Shanghai is near the eastern end.

What kind of railway should serve the western end of Chongming Island? How frequent trains would the villages and small towns there need?
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Old March 3rd, 2013, 03:13 PM   #2573
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Quote:
How should these long trams differ from short trains?
Trams feature much less weight load on rail and they can be low floor. A team line costs much less than a railway line. The costs are lower, too.
Short trains like you described are not a solution for Shanghai.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Does Shanghai contain separate centres which taken alone are big enough and separate enough to need separate metro systems?
When I was saying "their own metro" I meant an overall Chinese standard - long platforms up to 140-190 m long, distances between stations in 1500 - 2000 m brackets on average. I didn't mean each county of shanghai should have its own system or standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Where?

Take Chongming island.

700 000 people on the 1400 or so square km of Chongming county. But some of them live on Changxing and Hengsha islands - so how many people live on the 1041 square km Chongming island?

Chongming Island is 76 km long. And the bridge across Changxing island to Shanghai is near the eastern end.

What kind of railway should serve the western end of Chongming Island? How frequent trains would the villages and small towns there need?
Well, sure, they may not be metro lines of a high capacity everywhere. Still, there has to be a higher capacity for the existing communities so that they are well served in the future as they develop.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 01:04 PM   #2574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Trams feature much less weight load on rail and they can be low floor. A team line costs much less than a railway line. The costs are lower, too.
Short trains like you described are not a solution for Shanghai.
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Well, sure, they may not be metro lines of a high capacity everywhere. Still, there has to be a higher capacity for the existing communities so that they are well served in the future as they develop.
Tram lines tend to be incompatible with trains with respect to through running. They are also difficult to upgrade piecemeal, the way train lines have been.

How "low floor" trams are you considering?

Low floor trams tend to be slow - suitable for last mile traffic in dense urban area, but not for long distance, infrequent traffic in sparsely settled suburban/countryside areas.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 06:58 PM   #2575
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Why do they tend to be slow? A good articulated tram up to 45-50 m long can run at 80 km/h and an average speed may be in the neighborhood of 35 km/h which is quite much. But the cost of infrastructure construction is lower in comparison to that for ordinary trains.

For longer commuting distances they have to carry on building traditional metro lines like those they have.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 10:52 PM   #2576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Why do they tend to be slow? A good articulated tram up to 45-50 m long can run at 80 km/h and an average speed may be in the neighborhood of 35 km/h which is quite much. But the cost of infrastructure construction is lower in comparison to that for ordinary trains.
Some examples from Germany - starting from Schönbuchbahn, top speed 80 km/h, average 42 km/h with a stop per 1500 m:
http://zierke.com/shasta_route/pages/44reactivate.html

These are reactivations, so the stated costs do not include the cost of original building back in 19th century.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 11:44 PM   #2577
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Ok, but those are diesel trains, not trams or metros... what exactly is your point regarding this discussion?
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Old March 5th, 2013, 04:54 AM   #2578
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Line 16 under test-run



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Old March 5th, 2013, 08:33 AM   #2579
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Ok, but those are diesel trains, not trams or metros... what exactly is your point regarding this discussion?
That the 6340 square km of Shanghai includes extensive rural/suburban areas where distances are too big and population too sparse to justify metro or tram. And that diesel trains (or short electric trainsets) are needed to serve these areas.
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Old March 5th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #2580
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Ah yes. That seems about right. But there are also a lot of places in Shanghai left that need proper metro.
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