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Old September 9th, 2013, 06:34 AM   #2841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
What are those S series lines?

In either case China (bigger cities at least) clearly need high capacity commuter railways. A perfect example of such systems could be S-Bahn in major German cities where such commuter railways are functioning alongside the regular metro (U-Bahn) but have fewer stops, usually run faster (albeit at lower frequencies) and reach further into the outskirts. This is despite the fact that we're talking of fairly small cities/metropolitan zones in comparison with gigantic cities like Shanghai or Beijing in China. Metro systems as they are today even if doubled or tripled in size are not enough.
Most of them are still on the drawing board but Nanjing strangely is the first to finish them. The first phases of their S series lines, namely S1, S3, and S8 will start opening in 2014. For example S1 will radiate 80km out of Nanjing to a "nearby" city. Off the top of my head Wuxi, Suzhou, Kunming, Tianjin, Ningbo, Qingdaa and Luzhou are planning similar networks (under different names Z, R, L series lines etc.). The Chinese tend to build new railways on viaducts so in the end the entire line is grade separated.
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Old September 9th, 2013, 10:14 AM   #2842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Most of them are still on the drawing board but Nanjing strangely is the first to finish them. The first phases of their S series lines, namely S1, S3, and S8 will start opening in 2014. For example S1 will radiate 80km out of Nanjing to a "nearby" city.
Gaochun is a district, not a city. In which month of 2014 shall S1 open?
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Off the top of my head Wuxi, Suzhou,
What are the S series line plans of Suzhou?
Nanjing line S3 serves the province of Anhui. Do any S series lines of Suzhou serve the municipality of Shanghai?
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Kunming, Tianjin, Ningbo, Qingdaa and Luzhou are planning similar networks (under different names Z, R, L series lines etc.).
Luzhou?
Quite interesting. A city of less than a million people in central city (parts of Jiangyang and Longmatang districts). Yet it is quite obvious that a few hundred thousand people ARE plenty of population to need public transport railway service.
Shall Luzhou suburban railway also serve the neighbouring municipality of Chongqing?
Which neighbours of Shanghai besides Suzhou are building suburban railways? The other two are Jiaxing and Nantong. And shall their suburban railways serve Shanghai?
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Old September 10th, 2013, 04:12 AM   #2843
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Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
saw from another source that Shanghai metro length is 462km. It seems 462 km (without Maglev) is the correct number.
It's still not the world largest rapid transit system. It's quite behind the number one Seoul Metropolitan Subway that stands at 526 km.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 04:57 AM   #2844
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But if Shanghai MagLev be considered or combined would it make Shanghai Metro system as the world's longest?
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Old September 10th, 2013, 05:36 AM   #2845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VECTROTALENZIS View Post
It's still not the world largest rapid transit system. It's quite behind the number one Seoul Metropolitan Subway that stands at 526 km.
I don't get it about Seoul subway. Not too long ago London had the longest network with 402km. Then Shanghai overtook it with 420km or so. Then Beijing caught up/overtook Shanghai and have more or less been a tie ever since both expanding hand in hand. When did Seoul manage to pop into the picture with 526km? Where did that come from? Did I miss something?
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Old September 10th, 2013, 05:42 AM   #2846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VECTROTALENZIS View Post
It's still not the world largest rapid transit system. It's quite behind the number one Seoul Metropolitan Subway that stands at 526 km.
Then it will be the largest anyway by the end of this year when Line 12/16 open, 538 km.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 05:46 AM   #2847
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Most of them are still on the drawing board but Nanjing strangely is the first to finish them. The first phases of their S series lines, namely S1, S3, and S8 will start opening in 2014. For example S1 will radiate 80km out of Nanjing to a "nearby" city. Off the top of my head Wuxi, Suzhou, Kunming, Tianjin, Ningbo, Qingdaa and Luzhou are planning similar networks (under different names Z, R, L series lines etc.). The Chinese tend to build new railways on viaducts so in the end the entire line is grade separated.
Are there any maps of such systems?
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Old September 10th, 2013, 06:43 AM   #2848
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Gaochun is a district, not a city.
You know China just including everything rural around the actual urban built up area as part of the "sub-provincial" city. Gaochun is actually a separate built up area geographically. As you can see here there is a lot of farms between Gaochun and Nanjing.

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Luzhou?
I'm an idiot it's Lanzhou, Gansu

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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Which neighbours of Shanghai besides Suzhou are building suburban railways?
Kunming.

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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The other two are Jiaxing and Nantong. And shall their suburban railways serve Shanghai?
Nantong will get an actual suburban line as the MOR is building a link from Nantong to Anting. As for Jiaxing you can see Line 9 snaking its way over there ending at Jiashan. FYI line 9 is internally called R4 or the shanghai metro R series "regional lines". Imagine if it was built from Jiaxing to Chongming Island (as planned and imagined).

to sum up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
hollow lines are "suburban railways" some are planned to be mainline built by MOR others if built by the local governments expect a metro-like design.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 10:00 AM   #2849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VECTROTALENZIS View Post
It's still not the world largest rapid transit system. It's quite behind the number one Seoul Metropolitan Subway that stands at 526 km.
As I can understand, total number for Seoul does include lines that are more of a traditional city or commuter railway type, not metro. If we count this, we may as well count line 22 in Shanghai as well as Maglev line and some CRH lines within Shanghai administrative borders. And, we may as well count all Greater Tokyo rail lines, which will result in insane numbers of several thousands of km.

Am I right?
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Old September 10th, 2013, 12:34 PM   #2850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
As I can understand, total number for Seoul does include lines that are more of a traditional city or commuter railway type, not metro. If we count this, we may as well count line 22 in Shanghai as well as Maglev line and some CRH lines within Shanghai administrative borders. And, we may as well count all Greater Tokyo rail lines, which will result in insane numbers of several thousands of km.

Am I right?
No. The Seoul system is 975km long if including all of the commuter railways around the city. There are 537.4km of dedicated rapid transit lines in Seoul excluding the Incheon Subway. The number of stations equals 411 across this rapid transit network (excluding Incheon subway) with 607 total stations total including non rapid transit. There are 6.9 million users every day on the subway (rapid transit lines) alone (excluding Incheon Subway).
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Old September 10th, 2013, 12:42 PM   #2851
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Then, why is almost everybody talking about Beijing and Shanghai as the two largest competitors?

Is it a metro in the proper sense of the word or not? I mean Tokyo has a relatively small metro system but loads of "dedicated rapid transit lines" that can give us in total more than 2000 km.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 02:04 PM   #2852
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Quote:
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You know China just including everything rural around the actual urban built up area as part of the "sub-provincial" city. Gaochun is actually a separate built up area geographically.
Yes, but it is not a county-level city, like Jurong in Zhanjiang prefecture level city is. Gaochun was a county, and in January became a district, not a city.
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As you can see here there is a lot of farms between Gaochun and Nanjing.
And a lot less distance between central Gaochun and central Wuhu than between central Gaochun and central Wuhu.
Is any railway built between central Gaochun and central Wuhu?
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Kunming.
Which, like Tianjin, Qingdao and Lanzhou, are not neighbours of Shanghai.

Although - while Ningbo is not exactly a neighbour of Shanghai, Zhoushan IS.
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Nantong will get an actual suburban line as the MOR is building a link from Nantong to Anting.
Does that link go from Zhuhangshen over the existing Sutong bridge to Changshu city in Suzhou, or involve a new Yangtze crossing?
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FYI line 9 is internally called R4 or the shanghai metro R series "regional lines". Imagine if it was built from Jiaxing to Chongming Island (as planned and imagined).
Imagine that it was built not just to Chongming Island, but then along the Chongming island all the way through Chongming, Luhuazhen - then a second bridge across the northernmost channel of Yangtze to Haimen, and on to central Nantong in Chongchuan or so.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 02:47 PM   #2853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Then, why is almost everybody talking about Beijing and Shanghai as the two largest competitors?

Is it a metro in the proper sense of the word or not? I mean Tokyo has a relatively small metro system but loads of "dedicated rapid transit lines" that can give us in total more than 2000 km.
Yes i agree! People say oh Shanghai metro is much more than a metro, it serves as suburban lines too, well then you can't just compare it to metro systems either, you'll need to compare it to full systems because Shanghai metro is acting as a full system.

Like you said Tokyo has a relatively small metro but massive commuter rail that totals 2,000 km. Shanghai metro should be compared to that, not just the small metro. Similarly, NYC only has a 337 km subway system, but if you include PATH, NJ Transit, LIRR, Metro North, JFK airtrain, etc., it's also easily over 2,000 km.

Shanghai/Beijing is fast growing and hopefully their comprehensive systems can match that of Tokyo and NYC. But to say Shanghai/Beijing have the world's largest urban rail systems at 500-600 km is erroneous, especially compared to these monsters of Tokyo and NYC at well over 2,000 kms.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 02:56 PM   #2854
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Yes i agree! People say oh Shanghai metro is much more than a metro, it serves as suburban lines too, well then you can't just compare it to metro systems either, you'll need to compare it to full systems because Shanghai metro is acting as a full system.

Like you said Tokyo has a relatively small metro but massive commuter rail that totals 2,000 km. Shanghai metro should be compared to that, not just the small metro. Similarly, NYC only has a 337 km subway system, but if you include PATH, NJ Transit, LIRR, Metro North, JFK airtrain, etc., it's also easily over 2,000 km.

Shanghai/Beijing is fast growing and hopefully their comprehensive systems can match that of Tokyo and NYC. But to say Shanghai/Beijing have the world's largest urban rail systems at 500-600 km is erroneous, especially compared to these monsters of Tokyo and NYC at well over 2,000 kms.
Can you include NJ Transit? A lot of those lines don't look very frequent at all by European standards even. In fact, if you were to say that they should be counted in the total for NYC, then most of the UK rail system is more frequent than that, so almost the entire UK rail system belongs to London and adds to their total (for example). It's difficult in densely populated countries with significant rail infrastructure to actually delineate what belongs to what, and I think this is most definitely a case in point. NJ Transit in particular appears to function as "US-style" Commuter rail, so very infrequent off-peak in other words. Tokyo, Osaka and Nagoya (for the Japanese) tend to have minimum frequencies off-peak in the more comfortable <15 minute range with most lines having much better service frequencies.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #2855
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His point still seems valid in terms of Tokyo though; he just made the error of grouping NYC with these behemoths when in terms of urban rail transit it isn't even in their league.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #2856
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His point still seems valid in terms of Tokyo though; he just made the error of grouping NYC with these behemoths when in terms of urban rail transit it isn't even in their league.
As usual Japan is more of the extreme exception than the rule here. Even in Europe the rapid transit case is still hard to build apart from RER, crossrail, and a handful of S-bahn or Cercanías systems everything else is clearly more on the commuter in character. New York? only good because everything else in america is not; It's still pretty bad on a world perspective.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #2857
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Yes i agree! People say oh Shanghai metro is much more than a metro, it serves as suburban lines too, well then you can't just compare it to metro systems either, you'll need to compare it to full systems because Shanghai metro is acting as a full system.

Like you said Tokyo has a relatively small metro but massive commuter rail that totals 2,000 km. Shanghai metro should be compared to that, not just the small metro. Similarly, NYC only has a 337 km subway system, but if you include PATH, NJ Transit, LIRR, Metro North, JFK airtrain, etc., it's also easily over 2,000 km.
I don't think it is correct to count other New York rail lines. What are the headways there? Is there a metro principle for train routes? I don't know much about it.

We in Moscow can add up to 200 km of traditional railway lines within the city, but we never do yet these lines have nearly the same distances between stations as Moscow metro does.

I can count Tokyo rail lines right because headways there are comparable to metro headways (no more than 10 minutes).
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Old September 10th, 2013, 11:07 PM   #2858
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I don't think it is correct to count other New York rail lines. What are the headways there? Is there a metro principle for train routes? I don't know much about it.
Peak hours, weekdays ~5:30 AM - 9:30 AM and ~4:30 PM to ~8 PM, have headways around 10 minutes per train. Off peak hour trains are every half hour.

The PATH train though, does have metro frequencies and metro style seating.
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Old September 10th, 2013, 11:50 PM   #2859
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Peak hours, weekdays ~5:30 AM - 9:30 AM and ~4:30 PM to ~8 PM, have headways around 10 minutes per train. Off peak hour trains are every half hour.

The PATH train though, does have metro frequencies and metro style seating.
But those frequencies are not true for NJ Transit at all. They really are more like "intercity" frequencies one sees between less important cities in Europe.

Also, each branch of the LIRR appears to have 2-3tph at peak dropping to 0.5tph on some branches off-peak. This isn't that frequent. The MNR is much better, though frequency still seems to drop to every hour off peak for the majority of the line, unless I am reading these schedules wrong.

You're definitely right about PATH, though. That certainly seems to have metro frequencies.

I guess what I am saying is that this is not really that impressive, and certainly not the kind of frequency one can call "urban" transport really as it isn't a turn up and go frequency, nor is it something one can use without a schedule. Even my town of Northampton on a branch line (not the main line) has a 3tph off-peak frequency into London and we're not attached or have anything to do with with the city beyond being connected to the national rail network in the UK, hence my initial point to you about having to count the entire country's network as part of your total if one considers such lines to be part of the "urban" network of New York rather than the regional network, which is very hard to add to your total. Your figure ends up inflating the size of the New York network.
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Old September 11th, 2013, 12:27 AM   #2860
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Yes, but it is not a county-level city, like Jurong in Zhanjiang prefecture level city is. Gaochun was a county, and in January became a district, not a city.
Yes, Yes but in all intents and proposes it is a separate city economically, socially and physically. It proves the point of these "regional rail metros" China is and will be constructing. If the area is politically part of the main city and the local city government is responsible for the construction of rail transit they will just design it as a super long subway line. If the the MOR has interest in the corridor then actual commuter/regional rail will be built.

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Does that link go from Zhuhangshen over the existing Sutong bridge to Changshu city in Suzhou, or involve a new Yangtze crossing?
New Yangtze crossing, road and rail bridge.

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Imagine that it was built not just to Chongming Island, but then along the Chongming island all the way through Chongming, Luhuazhen - then a second bridge across the northernmost channel of Yangtze to Haimen, and on to central Nantong in Chongchuan or so.
Well originally it was planned to be built to Chongming island but got replaced with Line 19. The line could be possibly built as a mainline railroad as MOR is eyeing the project with interest.
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