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Old October 28th, 2014, 01:32 PM   #3341
chornedsnorkack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FNNG View Post
I think Wuxi and shuzou is already a city of their own(in term of population and size), if you force them to be included inside greater shanghai it would damage their city development and might end up to be shanghai satellite city where all the good development will focus mainly in shanghai. I also think these city is too far to be included inside greater shanghai.
Central Shanghai to central Suzhou is something like 90 km.
For comparison, the second city of Tokyo Metropolis is Yokohama, and the Yokohama Station is just 28,8 km from Tokyo Station. So Suzhou is much harder to merge with Shanghai.
At comparable distances from Tokyo, Odawara Station is 83,9 km from Tokyo by Tokaido Main Line, Utsunomiya Atation is 109,5 km from Tokyo by Tohoku Main Line, and Takasaki Station is 105 km from Tokyo by Takasaki Line.

But neither Odawara nor Utsunomiya nor Takasaki are anywhere as big urban centres as Suzhou is.
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I think they could work together and form an economy strategic area between these city. Furthermore shanghai will be too crowded if people from these city coming in to work. I've been to shanghai twice and it is very crowded. Unlike Tokyo who have few big, famous and busy downtown area, shanghai also need to develop few more downtown area to "dissolve" the crowd in main city area.
There ARE downtown areas. Central Kunshan is 50 km from Shanghai. It also is 40 km from central Suzhou. Yes, Kunshan is administratively subject to Suzhou, but it is further from Suzhou than Yokohama is from Tokyo.
Does Kunshan have closer commuter, economic and social connections with central Suzhou or with Shanghai?
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Old October 28th, 2014, 02:06 PM   #3342
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You guys seem to keep revisiting this Tokyo vs Shanghai thing every once in a while. I get that both cities are in Northeast Asia, have a similar kind of dynamism, and have colorful trains running elevated sometimes. But beyond that, the two cities are very different places in their life, both in terms rate of development, and pattern of urbanization.

Anyway, it was posted way back that they were building a CRH track between Pudong and Hongqiao, or something to that effect. Is it still happening?
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Old October 28th, 2014, 02:33 PM   #3343
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Well, that's my whole point in this whole thing, they are completely different and as such saying things like "almost the same as Tokyo" are pointless.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 04:38 PM   #3344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
There ARE downtown areas. Central Kunshan is 50 km from Shanghai. It also is 40 km from central Suzhou. Yes, Kunshan is administratively subject to Suzhou, but it is further from Suzhou than Yokohama is from Tokyo.
Does Kunshan have closer commuter, economic and social connections with central Suzhou or with Shanghai?
Kunshan is definitely in Shanghai's gravitational field. I haven't been to all parts of it, but the ones I have visited had the feel of an outer suburb of Shanghai, including the metro and buses going to Shanghai. Not very surprising given the relative size and importance of Shanghai and Suzhou.
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Old October 28th, 2014, 06:10 PM   #3345
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Anyway, it was posted way back that they were building a CRH track between Pudong and Hongqiao, or something to that effect. Is it still happening?
Do you mean the 160km/h line connecting Pudong and Hongqiao bypassing the inner city areas? I was wondering what was happening with this one too. That's like one of the most important projects at the moment.
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Old October 30th, 2014, 08:15 AM   #3346
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Well, that's my whole point in this whole thing, they are completely different and as such saying things like "almost the same as Tokyo" are pointless.
Could you show me where I was saying that? I said SHANGHAI is turning bit by bit into Tokyo, which is completely different. And I didn't mean having dozens of lines. I meant that you will be able to see in Shanghai two trains of different lines trying to rival each other.
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Old November 12th, 2014, 06:03 PM   #3347
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Celebrating the Centennial Anniversary of Shanghai trolley-bus, November 15th, 1914, the oldest and longest continuously operated trolley-bus system in the world.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/2...570292_03_0_02

The original trolley-bus route 14 is still running 100 years later.
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Old November 12th, 2014, 06:35 PM   #3348
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Celebrating the Centennial Anniversary of Shanghai trolley-bus, November 15th, 1914, the oldest and longest continuously operated trolley-bus system in the world.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/2...570292_03_0_02

The original trolley-bus route 14 is still running 100 years later.
I was wondering what's the situation with trolleybus networks in Chinese cities? Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou have them from what I observed. But I also read that network sizes were getting reduced and the idea of trolleybus was declining in general. Is this still the case? Are trolleybuses to stay in China or are they doomed?
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Old November 12th, 2014, 07:01 PM   #3349
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I was wondering what's the situation with trolleybus networks in Chinese cities? Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou have them from what I observed. But I also read that network sizes were getting reduced and the idea of trolleybus was declining in general. Is this still the case? Are trolleybuses to stay in China or are they doomed?
Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou are all heading towards good direction in rejuvenating the trolley-bus system. All three systems are investing heavily on trolley-buses, and I think the research work done in recent years are bearing fruits now as new trolley-buses in China are all built as trolley and lithium-ion battery bus hybrid which give them significant off-wire maneuverability. Shanghai has invested 290 new trolley-buses from Jinhua Neoplan. Beijing is entering a trolley-bus great leap forward. Just as October 31, route 116 was electrified. Currently Beijing is electrifying BRT 1 and BRT 3. Guangzhou has also purchased new Foton trolley-buses. Other provincial capitals and cities such as Jinan, Qingdao, Dalian, Wuhan, and Hangzhou are all the process of procuring new trolleys, or have already bought new trolleys.
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Old November 12th, 2014, 07:39 PM   #3350
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Originally Posted by ode of bund View Post
Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou are all heading towards good direction in rejuvenating the trolley-bus system. All three systems are investing heavily on trolley-buses, and I think the research work done in recent years are bearing fruits now as new trolley-buses in China are all built as trolley and lithium-ion battery bus hybrid which give them significant off-wire maneuverability. Shanghai has invested 290 new trolley-buses from Jinhua Neoplan. Beijing is entering a trolley-bus great leap forward. Just as October 31, route 116 was electrified. Currently Beijing is electrifying BRT 1 and BRT 3. Guangzhou has also purchased new Foton trolley-buses. Other provincial capitals and cities such as Jinan, Qingdao, Dalian, Wuhan, and Hangzhou are all the process of procuring new trolleys, or have already bought new trolleys.
Thanks. Good to hear that. I saw trolleybuses in Beijing going on the streets with their trolley poles down which made me curious.
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Old November 13th, 2014, 01:02 AM   #3351
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I went to Shanghai earlier this year, and I was bitterly disappointed with the Metro - as I was with Beijing's Subway.

I found that even at rush hour, trains were only every five minutes. Why not every minute? There wouldn't be anywhere as much crowding with trains every minute.

I also found that trains wait up to 30 seconds at the station after the doors close. Why? Just standing still, doors closed, waiting to depart. I've never found this on any metro system outside China.

The most frustrating thing I found was that the last trains are at 22:00 - 22:30. Perhaps it is just Western culture, but that is horribly early. Shanghai is supposed to be a world city, no? And it has a metro system that stops halfway through the evening. How is it possible to go out for dinner or drinks? The metro should run until at least 01:00, if not 24hr.
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Old November 13th, 2014, 01:23 AM   #3352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ode of bund View Post
the oldest and longest continuously operated trolley-bus system in the world.
Wow! I had no clue.

Interesting. There are older non-continuously operated systems, such as in Bratislava (from 1909 to 1915, then again starting in 1941).
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Old November 13th, 2014, 01:29 AM   #3353
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I found that even at rush hour, trains were only every five minutes. Why not every minute? There wouldn't be anywhere as much crowding with trains every minute.
I noticed that too in Shanghai (although it's better on some lines it seems) and that made me wonder what the precise reasons were? It took 5 minutes for the next train to come (or so it was showing on the information display at the station) while the whole place (Dashijie station) was hopelessly overcrowded during the evening rush hour. You couldn't get onto the train and once on the train some passengers couldn't get out because carriages were completely packed without a chance to move for those who were not right next to the doors.

Quote:
I also found that trains wait up to 30 seconds at the station after the doors close. Why? Just standing still, doors closed, waiting to depart. I've never found this on any metro system outside China.
I brought this up quite a while back after visiting Shenzhen for the first time. I later noticed that it's the same thing in all metro systems in China. Wasted dwelling time (time between doors closing and physical movement of the train) in stations is very long. I know it's a funny thing to do but I actually like counting time after the doors close until train starts to physically move. In Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou and Shenzhen it typically takes between 10 and 15 seconds with some extremes up to around 20 seconds (rare).

In other metro systems in Asia that I've tried (like Hong Kong, Singapore and Bangkok) it takes around 2-4 seconds which is probably a reasonable benchmark of how long it should be. In London it might be as little as 1 second in some instances but rarely more than 2 seconds. So 10-15 seconds really seems too long once you put it into perspective.

It must have to do with the train driver getting out of the driver's cabin at every station and observing the platform. He only gets in after all the doors are closed and safety indicators are green, then closes his own cabin door and takes actions to make the train move. The whole thing probably takes around 6-8 seconds hence total dwelling time of up to around 15 seconds. If you minus that out you would get 3-5 seconds, pretty much like elsewhere.

The reason for such a complicated procedure is safety (or so it was mentioned in some earlier discussions about the issue) but I still wonder why is it necessary? And why it's not necessary elsewhere? It's not like Chinese passengers are crazy and would not know how to behave in a metro (even if that might have been the case some time ago). Even if they were less patient from, say, your typical passenger in Singapore or Hong Kong there are more than enough safety measures in place: screen doors, sensors looking for passengers trapped between doors, security cameras observing the platform, platform train dispatch staff etc. Yet the driver still has to get out of his cabin at every stop so wasting time and increasing dwelling times. Why?

Last edited by Pansori; November 13th, 2014 at 01:36 AM.
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Old November 13th, 2014, 04:55 AM   #3354
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I noticed that too in Shanghai (although it's better on some lines it seems) and that made me wonder what the precise reasons were? It took 5 minutes for the next train to come (or so it was showing on the information display at the station) while the whole place (Dashijie station) was hopelessly overcrowded during the evening rush hour. You couldn't get onto the train and once on the train some passengers couldn't get out because carriages were completely packed without a chance to move for those who were not right next to the doors.

I brought this up quite a while back after visiting Shenzhen for the first time. I later noticed that it's the same thing in all metro systems in China. Wasted dwelling time (time between doors closing and physical movement of the train) in stations is very long. I know it's a funny thing to do but I actually like counting time after the doors close until train starts to physically move. In Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou and Shenzhen it typically takes between 10 and 15 seconds with some extremes up to around 20 seconds (rare).

In other metro systems in Asia that I've tried (like Hong Kong, Singapore and Bangkok) it takes around 2-4 seconds which is probably a reasonable benchmark of how long it should be. In London it might be as little as 1 second in some instances but rarely more than 2 seconds. So 10-15 seconds really seems too long once you put it into perspective.

It must have to do with the train driver getting out of the driver's cabin at every station and observing the platform. He only gets in after all the doors are closed and safety indicators are green, then closes his own cabin door and takes actions to make the train move. The whole thing probably takes around 6-8 seconds hence total dwelling time of up to around 15 seconds. If you minus that out you would get 3-5 seconds, pretty much like elsewhere.

The reason for such a complicated procedure is safety (or so it was mentioned in some earlier discussions about the issue) but I still wonder why is it necessary? And why it's not necessary elsewhere? It's not like Chinese passengers are crazy and would not know how to behave in a metro (even if that might have been the case some time ago). Even if they were less patient from, say, your typical passenger in Singapore or Hong Kong there are more than enough safety measures in place: screen doors, sensors looking for passengers trapped between doors, security cameras observing the platform, platform train dispatch staff etc. Yet the driver still has to get out of his cabin at every stop so wasting time and increasing dwelling times. Why?
You're not alone. I too counted the seconds after it took so long - and yes, you're right; the same for all metro systems in China that I used. 10 - 15 seconds would have been good; I remember my average coming to between 20 and 30! Still, wasted time.

I've not been to Singapore or Bangkok, but it was nice when I reached HK and got the standard of service I'd expect from a metro system. Late running trains with short dwell times as in Europe. In London, some trains will only spend 30 seconds in the station in total.

Why does the cab driver get out though? How can it be to do with safety also, really? Safety is of much higher concern in Europe than in China where this doesn't happen, and as you say, Chinese systems all are modern enough to have screens, cameras etc. I don't believe it can be to do with safety.
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Old November 13th, 2014, 09:16 AM   #3355
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Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post

You're not alone. I too counted the seconds after it took so long - and yes, you're right; the same for all metro systems in China that I used. 10 - 15 seconds would have been good; I remember my average coming to between 20 and 30! Still, wasted time.

I've not been to Singapore or Bangkok, but it was nice when I reached HK and got the standard of service I'd expect from a metro system. Late running trains with short dwell times as in Europe. In London, some trains will only spend 30 seconds in the station in total.

Why does the cab driver get out though? How can it be to do with safety also, really? Safety is of much higher concern in Europe than in China where this doesn't happen, and as you say, Chinese systems all are modern enough to have screens, cameras etc. I don't believe it can be to do with safety.
It must have to do with safety. Otherwise there is no other explanation. Why would the driver get out of the train and only get back in once all the doors are closed? It's an overkill and perhaps completely unnecessary but that must be a formal safety procedure they follow which is probably in their operations manual.
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Old November 13th, 2014, 09:41 AM   #3356
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It must have to do with safety. Otherwise there is no other explanation. Why would the driver get out of the train and only get back in once all the doors are closed? It's an overkill and perhaps completely unnecessary but that must be a formal safety procedure they follow which is probably in their operations manual.
Given the way mainland pax board their trains, I'm all for this added step.
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Old November 13th, 2014, 10:28 AM   #3357
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Yup, it's for safety. It's an added step, but you have to remember that Mainland Chinese have, in under a single generation, transformed from third-world to one with the comforts and facilities of a developed one. There are some habits that die hard, and will take a while more for them to get accustomed to. If the drivers there don't do manual checks, you'll definitely get people either stuck between the platform doors, trying to pry open the train doors to board, or worse.
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Old November 13th, 2014, 12:04 PM   #3358
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Given the way mainland pax board their trains, I'm all for this added step.
Actually there is nothing profoundly terrible about how passengers board trains in Mainland China. At least based on my observations in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Shenzhen over the past 4 years. True some people could be a little more patient but existing automated safety measures are more than adequate to ensure safety.
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Old November 13th, 2014, 12:16 PM   #3359
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Yup, it's for safety. It's an added step, but you have to remember that Mainland Chinese have, in under a single generation, transformed from third-world to one with the comforts and facilities of a developed one. There are some habits that die hard, and will take a while more for them to get accustomed to. If the drivers there don't do manual checks, you'll definitely get people either stuck between the platform doors, trying to pry open the train doors to board, or worse.
That's why there are platform train dispatch staff whose job is to do precisely that i.e. let the driver know when it's safe for the train to depart. That's IN ADDITION to all the automated systems which can also be fond in Chinese cities. A common practice pretty much everywhere.

Interestingly, stations in Mainland cities do seem to have more than enough platform staff and they do seem to be doing the job I mentioned.

It just doesn't make sense for the driver to do that. It's just obvious and arguments mentioned previously do not stand against criticism.
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Old November 13th, 2014, 12:25 PM   #3360
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Shanghai, Beijing and Guangzhou are all heading towards good direction in rejuvenating the trolley-bus system. All three systems are investing heavily on trolley-buses, and I think the research work done in recent years are bearing fruits now as new trolley-buses in China are all built as trolley and lithium-ion battery bus hybrid which give them significant off-wire maneuverability. Shanghai has invested 290 new trolley-buses from Jinhua Neoplan. Beijing is entering a trolley-bus great leap forward. Just as October 31, route 116 was electrified. Currently Beijing is electrifying BRT 1 and BRT 3.
So Beijing is adding new contact wire lines. Has Shanghai built any new trolley wires recently?
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