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Old January 15th, 2016, 02:18 AM   #3521
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One thing that i miss a lot after moving to London is Shanghai's subway.

Never appreciated it when i was in Shanghai, but man do i miss it now.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 05:49 AM   #3522
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Old January 16th, 2016, 09:05 AM   #3523
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Shanghai Disneyland Resort is due to open on June 16th, 2016.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 01:35 PM   #3524
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Shanghai Disneyland Resort is due to open on June 16th, 2016.
What about the nearby resorts? I don't remember if those are part of the park or not, but I recall there being several large hotels and other commercial properties going up in the area.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 02:11 AM   #3525
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One thing that i miss a lot after moving to London is Shanghai's subway.

Never appreciated it when i was in Shanghai, but man do i miss it now.
Shanghai's infrastructure is more developed than London's.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 09:49 AM   #3526
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Shanghai's infrastructure is more developed than London's.
Which regards? It is of course newer for historical reasons so you can say "more modern" but I don't think you can say "more developed" given how extensive the infrastructure in London is.
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Old January 20th, 2016, 11:56 PM   #3527
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Which regards? It is of course newer for historical reasons so you can say "more modern" but I don't think you can say "more developed" given how extensive the infrastructure in London is.
Shanghai transport infrastructure in my opinion is far more developed than that of London. And it is not only about modernity.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 02:36 AM   #3528
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Which regards? It is of course newer for historical reasons so you can say "more modern" but I don't think you can say "more developed" given how extensive the infrastructure in London is.
It really depends on how you define "developed". More modern, does, to a very big extent, mean more developed, as one would be able to integrate many modern technologies in building the infrastructure. The better way to say it I guess is Shanghai's subway is more developed BECAUSE it is built in modern times.

BUT, I do have to give it to London that the tubes generally run until 12am (where as in Shanghai the metro service stops at around 11pm), there are also many bus routes that run 24/7.

However, at the same time, I really dislike London's tube. It is small, slow and stuffy. The stations are also very dirty, the air quality is so bad that every time I take the tube and clean my nose with a tissue paper afterwards, the tissue would literally be black. The tunnels are dug very deep underneath the ground (Northern Line especially), and coupled with the fact that the walkways are like a maze, it usually takes around 2~3 minutes for you to get from the entrance to the platform. For a distance of about 2 tube stops, I would much rather walk than to actually take the tube because I cannot be bothered by the long trip to the platform.

Last edited by kix111; January 21st, 2016 at 03:02 AM.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 03:17 AM   #3529
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Talking about infrastructures, UK is also known for its poor quality highways. I have personally experienced this myself driving around Scotland, and man, it is scary.

The highways are clearly not designed for modern cars. The lanes are very narrow with no shoulder on either side. I drove a big Range Rover and whenever I see an incoming truck, I had to give so much space I would probably end up having only about 5cm of asphalt left between the tyre and the earth.

Also it is incredibly dangerous to drive on Scottish highways during night time (which is after 4pm in Scotland). Not only are there no street lamps, there are no reflectors installed on the road. So literally I was driving in pitch black, guessing my way through to the destination.

Also, in New Zealand, right before a corner, there would be a warning sign stating the recommended speed at which you should go through the corner. In UK, it doesn't say anything. So you really have to judge yourself how tight the corner is.

Also, the nation rail in UK is very slow. It took me 6 hours to go from London to Edinburgh. In China, I could go from Shanghai to Beijing in 5hr30min.

I am not complaining about UK, I love London, but it is hard for me to believe that you think UK's infrastructures are developed.



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Old January 21st, 2016, 11:20 AM   #3530
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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Shanghai transport infrastructure in my opinion is far more developed than that of London. And it is not only about modernity.
Define "developed"? In terms of reach to the wider population, frequency, coverage etc. This is what I view as developed. For convenience and latest tech I would agree with you that Shanghai has the benefit of being a newer system and also masterplanned, whereas the tube was an organic growth from competing companies (much like the development of the Japanese rail system in fact).

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Originally Posted by kix111 View Post
It really depends on how you define "developed". More modern, does, to a very big extent, mean more developed, as one would be able to integrate many modern technologies in building the infrastructure. The better way to say it I guess is Shanghai's subway is more developed BECAUSE it is built in modern times.

BUT, I do have to give it to London that the tubes generally run until 12am (where as in Shanghai the metro service stops at around 11pm), there are also many bus routes that run 24/7.

However, at the same time, I really dislike London's tube. It is small, slow and stuffy. The stations are also very dirty, the air quality is so bad that every time I take the tube and clean my nose with a tissue paper afterwards, the tissue would literally be black. The tunnels are dug very deep underneath the ground (Northern Line especially), and coupled with the fact that the walkways are like a maze, it usually takes around 2~3 minutes for you to get from the entrance to the platform. For a distance of about 2 tube stops, I would much rather walk than to actually take the tube because I cannot be bothered by the long trip to the platform.
Again, this comes to the organic development of London vs. the master planned development of Shanghai when it comes to the subway. Shanghai had the advantage of hindsight and the vast resources of a country behind it. London was started by private companies plying their routes and also revolutionised construction techniques for such a railway. Remember, London was the first in the world to do this. This has benefits and also drawbacks.

As for the cleanliness - that is due to dust alone. There have been studies on the dust showing that it is not carcinogenic and/or persistent in your lungs so there is no risk there. There used to be more of a risk from old brakepads wearing down in the past and producing nasties, but they replaced those brakepads a while ago and so the risk is negligible now.

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Originally Posted by kix111 View Post
Talking about infrastructures, UK is also known for its poor quality highways. I have personally experienced this myself driving around Scotland, and man, it is scary.

The highways are clearly not designed for modern cars. The lanes are very narrow with no shoulder on either side. I drove a big Range Rover and whenever I see an incoming truck, I had to give so much space I would probably end up having only about 5cm of asphalt left between the tyre and the earth.

Also it is incredibly dangerous to drive on Scottish highways during night time (which is after 4pm in Scotland). Not only are there no street lamps, there are no reflectors installed on the road. So literally I was driving in pitch black, guessing my way through to the destination.

Also, in New Zealand, right before a corner, there would be a warning sign stating the recommended speed at which you should go through the corner. In UK, it doesn't say anything. So you really have to judge yourself how tight the corner is.

Also, the nation rail in UK is very slow. It took me 6 hours to go from London to Edinburgh. In China, I could go from Shanghai to Beijing in 5hr30min.

I am not complaining about UK, I love London, but it is hard for me to believe that you think UK's infrastructures are developed.



Okay, this little rant about UK infrastructure is out of the scope of this topic, but I'll comment anyway - you should take the road complaints to the highways and autobahn section and the railways to the Railways section where there are threads on the UK there.

One thing that you also forget is that roads are driven on by people. What matters most with a roading system is the people using it too. Whilst you cite the example of NZ, if you look at the death rate on the roads in NZ, it is far higher than in the UK. In fact, the UK has some of the safest roads in the world, so clearly they are not hampered that much by the "poor design".

Those are also not "highways" - if you use the UK motorway or duel carriageway system then you'll find the quality to be comparable to the rest of the developed world. Admittedly the rural roads like you show are... More interesting, but still, they are built for the traffic they generally handle. Scotland is a sparsely populated part of the country, and admittedly not the most fun to drive.

Finally, National Rail is very different to the CRH system. If you tried to take local trains in China you'd find they are very slow too. Britain doesn't have the advantage of being able to link metropolises of 20+ million by CRH like the Beijing - Shanghai route, nor does it have the same population along the railways as China does - apples and oranges really. Given Beijing + Shanghai = the entire population of England, you can see why the transport needs are different. Despite this, HSR2 is going ahead so you'll soon see more dedicated HSR lines in the UK. For now, National Rail serves to link up all towns and cities in the UK as best as possible. It is expensive and overpriced and was horribly underinvested in for many years, but this has changed somewhat in recent years, much to the benefit of the country. Still expensive, but the investment is at least happening.

I think what fans of China forget is that few countries in the world have the centrally planned mechanisms of China. Nor do many countries have the resources of China. Nor do countries have the population of China to justify these grand infrastructure schemes. I often find that people compare the UK to France too when it comes to HSR, and I often have to remind them that the TGV came from the necessity that many towns and cities in France are actually separated by quite a large distance, unlike the close-knit towns and cities of England in particular (Scotland less so). Different countries have different reasons and routes for their development. If one likes one form of country over another I recommend moving there, though there is no panacea to be honest (and this is something I realise more and more as time goes on). One has to take the good with the bad and realise there are often explanations as to why something developed how it did.

I applaud China for its development of a massive HSR system. I equally applaud it for its modern subways and good quality highways. But these developments have come about due to necessity and the ability to carry them out has come about due to the unique Chinese situation of being very centrally planned and having vast resources at their disposal. This has been of great benefit to China. Does that mean the rest of the world doesn't have "developed" infrastructure, no. Most developed nations have infrastructure that suit their needs at this particular time when taking into account money vs. benefit. NZ has no proper passenger rail in the entire North Island (one train down to Wellington that is only a tourist train). Why? Because they simply don't need one and there is no real consistent demand for one. Low population density and low population in general means that running a maglev between Auckland and Wellington will simply not be feasible. Equally in Sweden between Gothenburg and Stockholm. The converse is true in Japan where the Chuo maglev has become a necessity simply because the Tokaido Shinkansen cannot really cope with demand. Being able to better link a city of 35 million with a metropolitan area of 20 million (Keihanshin) via a metropolitan area of 15 million you see that the population and demand is clearly going to justify this economically given these metropolitan areas alone make up a population larger than most countries at 70 million people.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 02:52 PM   #3531
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Wow, you don't need to be so over-defensive. Yes, we all know about London's early and organic development of the tube system. However, that is not a discount factor that you I would take into consideration in valuing how developed is the tube system. Rather, I would place much more weight on factors such as the coverage, the comfort of the ride and the accessibility.

As for the frequency, one thing I found about the tube is that during rush hours, the trains would come more frequently, but run a lot slower. My view is that they are trying to pack as many people in the trains as possible during rush hours because the platform is too small. So they would rather have people "wait" in the trains in the tunnel than having people actually wait on the platform.

Lastly, strikes. Lol.

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One thing that you also forget is that roads are driven on by people. What matters most with a roading system is the people using it too. Whilst you cite the example of NZ, if you look at the death rate on the roads in NZ, it is far higher than in the UK. In fact, the UK has some of the safest roads in the world, so clearly they are not hampered that much by the "poor design".
This is a very uneducated comparison. You are comparing two objects without holding ANYTHING constant. If you are using the highway death rate between the UK and NZ to compare the quality of the highway, then the ideal testing environment is such that everything (from the population, to the weather) except for the highway between the UK and NZ are the same. While that is impossible, but we should at least hold the highway users' characteristics the same.

Hence, what you mentioned is a very unfair comparison, and does not infer anything about UK's highway safety. If NZ population were to drive on UK highways, the death rate may becomes a lot higher than that of NZ's. Seriously, I think your UK superiority shit need to stop. This is just absurd, calling people "fans of China".
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Old January 21st, 2016, 03:22 PM   #3532
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Defensiveness and UK superiority? I think you have me confused with another user indeed. Please show me where I think the UK is in any way superior to other countries? The answer is I really don't - otherwise I'd still be living there, but I don't, and I am very acutely aware of the faults of my birth country (of which there are many). I was just commenting that you cannot call the infrastructure "less developed" that's all. It's just developed differently and serves different purposes. It's old and rickety in places but it is still a highly developed and multi-modal system across the entire country in my opinion, and again that comes back to the semantics of what "developed" actually means. You will find infrastructure like that all across Europe - the narrow rural lanes of The Netherlands and Germany often look like the Scottish example, yet these countries are praised for their infrastructure. Equally, the train system of The Netherlands, which has a very low speed, acts like a gigantic commuter network due to the population density. There are no high speed alternatives other than travelling to Belgium. That doesn't mean it's not developed infrastructure.

Again, coverage of the tube network is fairly good when married with overground and suburban rail services. Those rail networks overall cover the vast amount of metropolitan London. For comfort of the ride and accessibility, these are massive negatives agreed, and again, these are due to the legacy nature of the system compared to a purpose-built system. For the frequency - yes indeed there are often knock-on effects of overcrowding the system and yes, you often get people waiting in tunnels and/or trains travelling slowly. In fact that even happens in Stockholm, particularly on the central Green Line section where trains come every 30 seconds or so in rush hour simply because of the number of people attempting to be moved on one stretch of the line (and the problems of loading/unloading that go with that). Keeping people on the move, even if it means holding them in tunnels is preferable to platform crowding indeed. It's not an ideal solution (a higher capacity network would be) but it's the best they can do with a legacy system. I think all metro systems suffer from a similar phenomenon on highly trafficked stretches to be honest unless they have been planned with a remarkable amount of foresight.

Of course the comparison is rough for roads. But the fact remains that the UK roads are indeed safer than NZ roads in all statistics, it was you that brought up the comparison of signposting on NZ roads compared to the UK, doesn't mean that the NZ roads are any safer thanks to these signposts though, does it. To me what matters is the end results not the means by which you actually get there when it comes to population outcomes. If the UK does it by driver education moreso than NZ (perhaps) rather than by engineering solutions and the outcome is better, then perhaps that is the best course of action. That's a debate for the other thread though, and I am quite happy to discuss there.

Anyway, I would very much request as a moderator that you tone down your language please. There is no need to resort to personal insults there, and it won't be tolerated in this section. On my part I apologise for using the phrase "fans of China", that was badly chosen and inappropriate.

Last edited by Svartmetall; January 21st, 2016 at 04:27 PM.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 02:52 AM   #3533
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I was just commenting that you cannot call the infrastructure "less developed" that's all. It's just developed differently and serves different purposes. It's old and rickety in places but it is still a highly developed and multi-modal system across the entire country in my opinion, and again that comes back to the semantics of what "developed" actually means.

I think we should just rest our discussion here, because in your opinion, "developed" is defined as everything but the shortfalls of London tube.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 08:10 AM   #3534
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oh I love a good debate on infrastructure, looks like I came to the right place.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 01:28 PM   #3535
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I think we should just rest our discussion here, because in your opinion, "developed" is defined as everything but the shortfalls of London tube.
I am the first to admit the tubes shortcomings I used it for many years from my childhood to my early adulthood and also when I get the opportunity to visit. But you'really right this has turned into a semantic discussion and I don't think either of us is willing to concede.

Besides no point in allowing you to get yet more likes from Vectro.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 02:13 PM   #3536
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Svartmetall, you're right with the history and other stuff but if we put it all aside, Shanghai metro (and not only metro) looks more developed that the transport of London as t is more modern, more comfortable, cheaper, safer (in case of metro). Road lain Shanghai are far better than those of London in terms of width and coverage.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 03:16 PM   #3537
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This is an argument I just cannot win so I'll call it quits. I have not disputed anywhere that Shanghai metro is actually better to use or generally a more pleasant experience, there I concede completely (I've used it in case you guys have forgotten). The only, and I mean ONLY point I have quibbled about is you guys calling London "less developed". As I said to Kix, this is purely semantic, and rather than clog the thread further (and also get like-bombed out of here) I'll leave you to it.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 04:28 PM   #3538
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Shanghai Metro system shows its advantages esp. in the summer time.
All trains have air-conditioning. Moreover, the stations are quite cool, as well.
Compare that to the New York Subway (esp. the hot and stuffy station) and the London Tube (unbearable esp. the deep tunnel lines).
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 01:57 AM   #3539
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Svartmetall, you're right with the history and other stuff but if we put it all aside, Shanghai metro (and not only metro) looks more developed that the transport of London as t is more modern, more comfortable, cheaper, safer (in case of metro). Road lain Shanghai are far better than those of London in terms of width and coverage.
I absolutely agree with you when it comes to the infrastructure, I think Shanghai metro is top-notch. But when it comes to the metro etiquette, I would by far prefer London tube. The overall experience in Shanghai metro, I think, is compromised by the rude passengers.

I appreciate most the fact that 99% of the time people in London tube would let you get off the train first before hopping onto the train. Inside the train, most people are also very self-aware of their positioning, so that they would make way for you to get off the train when they are blocking the door. However, like you said, London's tube experience is compromised by the lack of modernity.

Overall, I would still prefer Shanghai metro. The only time I prefer London tube is during the rush hours. I think there are far less people and people are well mannered.

With all that said, I feel like Shanghai's metro etiquette is improving year by year. In stations in richer and commercial areas of Shanghai (Lujiazui, West Nanjing Rd, Centry Park etc.), it is now the norm to actually queue up on either side of the door while waiting for the train. We used to have people just scrambling in front of the door. I hope to see that change in poorer residential areas like Hongkou Football Stadium.
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 02:52 AM   #3540
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Also it is incredibly dangerous to drive on Scottish highways during night time (which is after 4pm in Scotland). Not only are there no street lamps, there are no reflectors installed on the road. So literally I was driving in pitch black, guessing my way through to the destination.
I see what you mean. I get sick while driving on UK roads. But mind you UK is among the leading nations (perhaps the leader?) in the EU (=world) in terms of road safety. Roads are not quite as great as they are in FR, NL or DE but the level of efficiency at which the infrastructure is utilized in practice is quite impressive. Driving culture adds much to that too.

Amazingly the adequacy and 'development' of infrastructure is not just about the technical specs but very much about the culture and manner in which it is used. A typical 2x2 or 3x3 motorway in UK or Germany has far more practical capacity (possibly even by times) than identical road in China simply because drivers behave differently and have different level of driving skills).

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