daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 3rd, 2006, 08:10 PM   #361
staff
囧!
 
staff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hong Kong | Singapore | Melbourne | Malmö | Copenhagen | Shanghai
Posts: 10,829
Likes (Received): 717

Nick Taylor,
All I'm saying is that the lines on that map (perhaps excluding the L-lines since they don't exist at all, and may be planned LRT lines - which I doubt) are Metro lines. The lines that are labeled R1 and R2 exist and they are by all means metro lines. Visit Shanghai and you'll see.

I agree that the system should have been expanded (or even constructed) earlier, but it will most probably be one of the 3 largest in the world by 2010, and perhaps the world's largest by 2020.

So it's all good.
__________________

Last edited by staff; November 3rd, 2006 at 08:16 PM.
staff no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 3rd, 2006, 10:14 PM   #362
drunkenmunkey888
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 53

So we have established that the lines with R, L, and M labels are unreliable. So from the way things look, it seems that all 800 kms are metro lines. Now comes the question for commuter rails. It appears that Shanghai officials have not even thought about commuter services yet. How can a city with 7000 sq km and population well over 20 million in the metro area not have commuter trains supplementing the 800 km of metros? This might be potentially problematic when Shanghainese begin to develop their suburbs...
drunkenmunkey888 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2006, 01:08 AM   #363
nick_-_taylor
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Posts: 119
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
Nick Taylor,
All I'm saying is that the lines on that map (perhaps excluding the L-lines since they don't exist at all, and may be planned LRT lines - which I doubt) are Metro lines. The lines that are labeled R1 and R2 exist and they are by all means metro lines. Visit Shanghai and you'll see.

I agree that the system should have been expanded (or even constructed) earlier, but it will most probably be one of the 3 largest in the world by 2010, and perhaps the world's largest by 2020.

So it's all good.
So the map is made to be confusing?

What I don't understand is the blue lines - clearly they seem to be the "R-Lines". Granted at the moment they are either short or disconnected, but by the looks of with the future expansion it they appear to be RER-like - out one end of the city and out the other.

You can't honestly say that in the map re-posted in my last post is not the 800km network?
nick_-_taylor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2006, 10:20 AM   #364
z0rg
fok julle naaiers
 
z0rg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Madrid
Posts: 24,765
Likes (Received): 16053

According to wikipedia, R lines are underground too despite of not being labeled as M (metro) lines. Ony L lines are on the surface.
__________________
What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.

More than 300 supertall projects on going in China.
z0rg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2006, 12:18 PM   #365
staff
囧!
 
staff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hong Kong | Singapore | Melbourne | Malmö | Copenhagen | Shanghai
Posts: 10,829
Likes (Received): 717

Nick Taylor,
I have no idea wheather the map is the 800 km one, or not. I don't even know if this figure is correct, or if the map posted above comes from official sources, or if it's home made by a forumer.

All I can say is that the R-lines on that map is without a doubt metro lines, and nothing else.

z0rg,
Two of the lines labeled as "M" on that map run on elevated tracks on quite long parts (and underground in the rest).
__________________
staff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2006, 02:10 PM   #366
nick_-_taylor
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Posts: 119
Likes (Received): 0

So if you're coming from the far north on that blue line, you'd then change onto R1 and then at the end of R1 change onto another line despite them pretty much being the same continuous line?

If anything the R-Lines sound a lot like RER lines: underground in the city, but above ground and far out into the surrounding metro.

But does anyone have figures for the M-Lines!
nick_-_taylor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 4th, 2006, 02:29 PM   #367
staff
囧!
 
staff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hong Kong | Singapore | Melbourne | Malmö | Copenhagen | Shanghai
Posts: 10,829
Likes (Received): 717

Nick,
I'm not sure which "blue line" you are talking about. The red line (labeled as R1 on this map, but M1 in reality) is the main north-south metro line in Shanghai today, just as the green line (labeled R2 here, M2 in reality) is the main east-west line.

The purple "R1 line" is more of a 'commuter train' like line, even though it is metro by definition. It only runs in the suburbs anyway, since the red R1-line ends pretty much where the city ends.

All the R-lines are metro and completely underground (except for two stations on the red line, and that purple line which for some reason is labeled R1 too).

As I said before, I don't even know if this map is a fantasy drawing or from an official source.
If you want to use this map as a source anyway, I suggest you ignore all the line names (R, M, L etc.) since they don't reflect reality at all.

What figures do you want for the M-lines? Two of the lines that are labeled as M on that map exists today - the M3 and M4. These lines are party underground and partly elevated. The stretch where they run side by side is the elevated part (pretty much).

These lines exist today:

"R1" (Purple) - Exactly the same type (rolling stock, frequency, whatever) as all the other lines, with the difference that it runs in the suburbs. So I guess you could call it an "RER-like" line if you want.

"R1" (Red) - The first metro line that was built in Shanghai. It runs from north to south.

"R2" - The main line that runs from east to west.

"M3" - Runs mainly on elevated tracks in the city center.

"M4" - The first ring line in Shanghai. Runs on elevated tracks together with M3, and the rest is underground.

All of these lines that exist today is the same kind of type. The M3 and M4 lines have newer trains (the older lines are being upgraded with the same trains). All the trains and stations on all the existing lines (including the purple R1) have the Shanghai Metro logo and so on.
If anything, the lines that are labeled M3 and M4 on this map are the "least" metro-like since they run on quite long stretches of elevated tracks instead of underground.

I hope this clarifies a thing or two.


Maybe the blue lines on this map are proposed commuter train lines. I have no idea.
__________________
staff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2006, 05:17 AM   #368
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

R is Regional Express Line, not Regional Commuter Line. R lines go underground in downtown, like a usual subway train, then go above ground (mostly elevated) in suburbs and go underground again in satellite towns.

M is Metropolitan Line, which covers only downtown area.

L is Suburban Light Rail, which connects downtown peripheries (underground) and suburban settlements (mostly elevated).

All R, M, L lines can go underground or elevated when it is necessary. Most of M3 is elevated while L4 is largely underground. All R, M, L stop between somewhat same distance in the downtown area. By nature, all R, M, L lines can be described as subway or metro according to the classical European or North American definition. R lines can in no ways be compared to RER of Paris.

Shanghai has its own commuter trains, which are operated by the national railway board and connect downtown area with suburban districts like Songjiang, Jinshan, Jiading and neighbouring cities like Kunshan, Jiaxing, Suzhou, Hangzhou. One section of the rails formerly used by commuter trains were recently upgraded to Metro Line 3 (M3).

R, M, L are labels only used in the planning phase. After the start of the construction, all lines acquire theirs respective Metro Line numbers. But now even those lines not yet started to build are no more mentioned by R, M, L, since those labels do not say much about their realizations. For example, M3 really goes out of the core downtown into the satellite town of Wusong; L4 goes right through some core downtown areas.

Since 1995, Metro Line 1(R1),2(R2),3(M3),4(M4),5(R1a, actually an L) have been openned. Metro Line 8(M8) has finished its construction and installation, is now waiting for test operation. The construction work of Line 6(L4) and 9(R4) has been mostly finished, are now in the phase of equipment installation. Lines 7(M7), 10(M1), 11(R3) are now in construction. According to some reports, Line 12(M2) & 13(M5) may also be openned before Expo 2010, though originally scheduled for 2012.

Last edited by leo_sh; November 5th, 2006 at 05:54 AM.
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2006, 06:59 AM   #369
staff
囧!
 
staff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hong Kong | Singapore | Melbourne | Malmö | Copenhagen | Shanghai
Posts: 10,829
Likes (Received): 717

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo_sh View Post
By nature, all R, M, L lines can be described as subway or metro according to the classical European or North American definition. R lines can in no ways be compared to RER of Paris...[...]...R, M, L are labels only used in the planning phase. After the start of the construction, all lines acquire theirs respective Metro Line numbers. But now even those lines not yet started to build are no more mentioned by R, M, L, since those labels do not say much about their realizations.
Thanks for clarifying this!
If I understand this correctly, all the lines on that future-map will be metro lines?

Very refreshing to get some reliable info on (any) projects in Shanghai - it's very hard to find, especially on an English speaking forum such as this.

Do you know where to find more info on the transportation systems in Shanghai? Preferably in English.
__________________
staff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2006, 08:09 AM   #370
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
Thanks for clarifying this!
If I understand this correctly, all the lines on that future-map will be metro lines?

Very refreshing to get some reliable info on (any) projects in Shanghai - it's very hard to find, especially on an English speaking forum such as this.

Do you know where to find more info on the transportation systems in Shanghai? Preferably in English.
Yes. The Municipality of Shanghai is not that huge as it looks like on the map. When the whole network is finished, you can reach the downtown from any station in the municipality within 30 min. If you want to directly reach the satellite towns like Songjiang, Anting, or Jinshan, the commuter trains are actually more preferable. R lines are more for smaller settlements along the route.

I got my infos mostly from www.nhmetro.org, which is a very good forum, but, of course, in Chinese. Jeg vil ogsa ikke forsoke a finde mye om dansk T-banen pa Engelsk. It is frequented by metro fans like me, as well as by the staff of the SH Metro and SH Modern Transp., the two metro operators in the town, so now and then you can get some insider stories.

Last edited by leo_sh; November 5th, 2006 at 08:39 AM.
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 6th, 2006, 12:04 PM   #371
nick_-_taylor
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Posts: 119
Likes (Received): 0

So those R Lines are part of the Shanghai Subway despite them looking a lot like RER lines as they stretch out into the metro area?
nick_-_taylor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 6th, 2006, 12:50 PM   #372
staff
囧!
 
staff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hong Kong | Singapore | Melbourne | Malmö | Copenhagen | Shanghai
Posts: 10,829
Likes (Received): 717


They are metro lines.
__________________
staff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 6th, 2006, 07:36 PM   #373
nick_-_taylor
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Posts: 119
Likes (Received): 0

So the blue lines (according to the map in post # 85) that go out of the city into the metro area are metro lines? So how comes the R Lines in that future map go off the map if they are metro lines, surely you'd show them to the teminus and not just going off into who knows where?

Don't get me wrong, I just feel that a bit of exaggeration is being used here for what is already spectacular developments and it becomes blurred and confusing when it really shouldn't!
nick_-_taylor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 6th, 2006, 07:57 PM   #374
staff
囧!
 
staff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hong Kong | Singapore | Melbourne | Malmö | Copenhagen | Shanghai
Posts: 10,829
Likes (Received): 717

Nick,
I have no idea what the blue lines on the map in post #85 are. Everything I've said in this thread has been referring to the "future map" (which I don't even know if it's reliable or not).

Supposedly, as I've said before, the blue lines on the post #85-map are planned (?) commuter train lines, since they seem to be routed along the same tracks as the regional trains (to Nanjing, Suzhou, Hangzhou etc.) run on. That has nothing to do with the "future map" that was posted before though.

I don't see the point why anyone would exaggerate anything that's happening in Shanghai right now. Rather the opposite - there is just so much going on it's impossible to comprehend. That's probably why it can seem "blurred and confusing" (as you put it) as well - especially for an 'outsider', so to speak.
__________________
staff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2006, 01:18 AM   #375
nick_-_taylor
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Posts: 119
Likes (Received): 0

But the 'future detailed map' clearly shows the R-Lines going off the map... I'm not degrading the system, but highlighting that they are probably more akin to the first phase of RER-type lines, running from the metro area, under the city and then out into the metro area at the other end.

Also surely blurred and confusing should be left to the older less integrated networks
nick_-_taylor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2006, 11:09 AM   #376
staff
囧!
 
staff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hong Kong | Singapore | Melbourne | Malmö | Copenhagen | Shanghai
Posts: 10,829
Likes (Received): 717



I don't really get how they become RER-lines just because they happen to stretch out a little further than the map shows. Would you consider them metro lines if the map showed a bigger area?
The areas which these lines stretch out to is still very, very urban and dense. It's not like they're single family homes sprawly areas.

I'm sure you would without a doubt consider them metro lines if you would come to Shanghai and ride the metro.
__________________
staff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2006, 12:27 PM   #377
nick_-_taylor
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Posts: 119
Likes (Received): 0

Well they would appear to extend for quite a long distance. Some consider the RER a metro - RER A is exceptionally busy....but its still a hybrid commuter system which draws people in from the metro area.

That isn't anything to be ashamed about, but it would re-calculate the actual situation that the 800km figures is for ALL of the metro area which includes non-metro rail length is a completely different kettle of fish.
nick_-_taylor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 8th, 2006, 07:21 PM   #378
staff
囧!
 
staff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hong Kong | Singapore | Melbourne | Malmö | Copenhagen | Shanghai
Posts: 10,829
Likes (Received): 717

I don't think the RER is the mainly used form of transport within the city center of Paris - the metro is. Just like the the metro of Shanghai, including those lines that happen to stretch a little bit outside that map (but still exclusively running in dense urban environment).
Fact is, two of those lines that you claim are RER-lines, are actually the two most used metro lines in the city center of Shanghai. Hell, I ride on line "R2" every day to and from school - and I both live and work in the central city!
I think you'd realize that calling those lines RER-like would be rather absurd if you visit the city and ride the metro.

The 800km figure could very well be for all types of rail transit or something similar - I have never said that that figure is for metro alone. I don't even know if this figure is reliable at all (where does it come from, anyway?).
It wouldn't be surprised if it's for metro alone though, considering the general development in this city.

The fact that Shanghai will have one of the largest metro network in the world within just a few years, and perhaps the largest network by, say, 2020-2025 is something that we have to accept whether we like it or not.
__________________
staff no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 9th, 2006, 10:17 PM   #379
Sidel
Registered User
 
Sidel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 96
Likes (Received): 0

Is someone from Shanghai here? I really need a help from someone who lives there.
I'm from Portugal and I'm doing a project in Shanghai, in the area closed with Shanghai Mansions, in front of the Zhapu Rd Bridge and the Wai Baidu Bridge.
I'm going there next 17th November but I really need some good pictures from this place and from the buildings facades for now.

If you can help me, please feel free to contact me.
Sidel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 10th, 2006, 06:23 AM   #380
Kiss the Rain
WoyaoDaJb
 
Kiss the Rain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: 中国威海(WEIHAI)-Christchurch
Posts: 939
Likes (Received): 20

Hope all of the stations across the country will be like that.
__________________
---
Kiss the Rain no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
metro, shanghai, tram

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium