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Old September 4th, 2017, 10:25 PM   #3801
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Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
I can't speak for Paris, but New York has about 20-23 million people in its metropolitan area and its four densely built up urban boroughs (leaving out Staten Island, which in many ways is more similar to Jersey than the city) are comparable to the built-up area of Shanghai. If that's a tiny village, then so is Shanghai.
There is an apples to oranges comparison going on here. New York is 20 to 23 million spread over an area larger than the country of Belgium. Shanghai on the other hand is 24 million people in 1/6 of that area.


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Okay, perhaps they're not suburban fringes, but they're still a bit impractical. That's like if the LIRR or the NJ Transit dropped you off in north Bronx or central Queens. It's technically still the city, but you still have a pretty long subway ride to get into the urban core.
They are not impractical. Chinese planning wants multiple urban centers in an general urban core not everything crammed into one point. The vision is to not need to reach Manhattan to go to work because north Bronx or central Queens is a major employment center. Expanding that further they want a network of major cities instead of one city dominating the entire region. That's why you have Suzhou, Wuxi and Changzhou which are major economic and cultural centers in their own right instead of just Shanghai running the show.
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Old September 4th, 2017, 11:05 PM   #3802
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Off: Can anyone tell me where Big-Dog is? His last activity was in October and it says he is no longer moderator. What happened?
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Old September 4th, 2017, 11:14 PM   #3803
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Are lines 22-25 serious btw? Shanghai truly needs many further lines to decongest its current grid. Imho we should expect many extra lines beyond 2020.
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Old September 4th, 2017, 11:42 PM   #3804
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They are not impractical. Chinese planning wants multiple urban centers in an general urban core not everything crammed into one point. The vision is to not need to reach Manhattan to go to work because north Bronx or central Queens is a major employment center. Expanding that further they want a network of major cities instead of one city dominating the entire region. That's why you have Suzhou, Wuxi and Changzhou which are major economic and cultural centers in their own right instead of just Shanghai running the show.
That's pretty interesting. It sounds a lot like what I read about Tokyo, which is that it has multiple centers of employment rather than everything centralized in one area the way NYC is. I used to think that Suzhou, Wuxi and Changzhou were similar to Shanghai as Stamford, Bridgeport and New Haven are for NYC. But Suzhou, Wuxi and Changzhou's sizes and economic importance relative to Shanghai is significantly larger than Stamford Bridgeport and New Haven are relative to NYC. I guess this is consistent with what you're saying about the Chinese are trying to create multiple centers as opposed to NYC who has its most critical industries centered in Manhattan.

Bringing this back to public transport, it seems like Shanghai would need a system more analogous to that of Tokyo than NYC, which is sort of what we're seeing.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 01:02 AM   #3805
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Are lines 22-25 serious btw? Shanghai truly needs many further lines to decongest its current grid. Imho we should expect many extra lines beyond 2020.
They are serious, as they were announced by the municipal government. Line 23 is even in the short term plan. But I agree with Shanghai needing many more lines. I'm worried Shanghai is starting to fall behind other cities in huge metro planning IMO.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 09:38 AM   #3806
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Hmmm, well Shanghai doesn't plan long term anymore, that's the difference. Many second tier cities are going +800km in the long term (circa 2040) but Shanghai has no official/clear plans beyond 2025. If even Xi'an and Chengdu are planning +800km within a couple of decades then Shanghai (and Beijing) may eye +2000km, you'll see.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #3807
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Hmmm, well Shanghai doesn't plan long term anymore, that's the difference. Many second tier cities are going +800km in the long term (circa 2040) but Shanghai has no official/clear plans beyond 2025. If even Xi'an and Chengdu are planning +800km within a couple of decades then Shanghai (and Beijing) may eye +2000km, you'll see.
Well they have 11 new suburban rail lines being planned, with no length given for any of them. If we're assuming 50 km on average, then that's another 550 km, bringing it up to around 1,500 km if we count metro lines. And then there's the Jiangsu Yangtze Metropolitan Belt Intercity Railway, which seems like an expanded suburban rail/intercity rail hybrid. This doesn't seem to involve Shanghai at least for now... Seems more focused on other cities in the Yangtze Delta, even those under planning. But I figure such a system won't exclude Shanghai in the far future...

Hopefully Shanghai has more express services in the making, whether its skip-stop like Line 16 or full fledged 4 track express services.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 11:00 PM   #3808
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4-track service is nonsense. Leave it to NY. Shanghai would better have 2 lines rather than one 4-track line.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 01:10 AM   #3809
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4-track service is nonsense. Leave it to NY. Shanghai would better have 2 lines rather than one 4-track line.
. . . this sounds like a serious case of NIH syndrome.

Four tracks allows for 60 trains per hour without CBTC, which is an unparalleled amount of capacity. In downtown cores where subway lines and stops reach density saturation, four tracks is definitely the way to go. Running different services on those four tracks that branch off into different lines away from the downtown core further enhances commuter flexibility and minimizes transfers.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 05:15 AM   #3810
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. . . this sounds like a serious case of NIH syndrome.

Four tracks allows for 60 trains per hour without CBTC, which is an unparalleled amount of capacity. In downtown cores where subway lines and stops reach density saturation, four tracks is definitely the way to go. Running different services on those four tracks that branch off into different lines away from the downtown core further enhances commuter flexibility and minimizes transfers.
I don't think New York runs 30 tph on each track on their 4 track fixed block corridors since there is so much interlining and conflicts at junctions where the services split. Also New York would build 4 track subways because that's what works for them. They only have a handful of avenues that they can build under so they cram as much tracks as they can. New York being centralized means that the focus is one seat express rides from the suburbs to the city center. Shanghai is more like Paris or Moscow with a non-grid layout of mostly narrow streets and no well defined corridor to focus your service or space to build 4 tracks economically. So they build or will build a web of distinct express/local networks. In addition the less centralization in both those cities means that orbital trips are quite common so chances are a trip will need transfers anyway or you will end up with an over-complicated network. So one seat rides are less relevant there. It also means that attention is paid to expanding rapid transit to not only go into the city center but also around it. Try doing an orbital rapid transit trip around Manhattan instead of into it (you can't).
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Old September 6th, 2017, 06:24 AM   #3811
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I don't think New York runs 30 tph on each track on their 4 track fixed block corridors since there is so much interlining and conflicts at junctions where the services split. Also New York would build 4 track subways because that's what works for them. They only have a handful of avenues that they can build under so they cram as much tracks as they can. New York being centralized means that the focus is one seat express rides from the suburbs to the city center. Shanghai is more like Paris or Moscow with a non-grid layout of mostly narrow streets and no well defined corridor to focus your service or space to build 4 tracks economically. So they build or will build a web of distinct express/local networks. In addition the less centralization in both those cities means that orbital trips are quite common so chances are a trip will need transfers anyway or you will end up with an over-complicated network. So one seat rides are less relevant there. It also means that attention is paid to expanding rapid transit to not only go into the city center but also around it. Try doing an orbital rapid transit trip around Manhattan instead of into it (you can't).
I'd argue that four track local/express service is even more important in decentralized cities as it allows for fast movement between high density cores. Look at the JR Yamanote line, which runs through all the major neighborhoods of Tokyo, and is paralleled along its entire length by local rapid transit service. While technically not a traditional four track service (at least to my understanding), it's functionally the same.

If you're going to have express and local services, you might as well attach the local stations to the express stations to facilitate easy transfers, rather than keep them distinct. What benefit is there to having local trips along the orbital express corridor not be along the same alignment?

The Lexington Avenue Line in NYC runs 59 trains per hour (or something very close to it) during peak hours. The conflicts at the junctions are less pronounced because each branch service terminate into either local or express services, but not both, so the four tracks are really more two set of almost entirely separate tracks.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 09:48 PM   #3812
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I'd argue that four track local/express service is even more important in decentralized cities as it allows for fast movement between high density cores. Look at the JR Yamanote line, which runs through all the major neighborhoods of Tokyo, and is paralleled along its entire length by local rapid transit service. While technically not a traditional four track service (at least to my understanding), it's functionally the same.
No. Where is express service on Yamanote line? Distances between stations are often less than 1 km...
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Old September 6th, 2017, 10:02 PM   #3813
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. . . this sounds like a serious case of NIH syndrome.

Four tracks allows for 60 trains per hour without CBTC, which is an unparalleled amount of capacity. In downtown cores where subway lines and stops reach density saturation, four tracks is definitely the way to go. Running different services on those four tracks that branch off into different lines away from the downtown core further enhances commuter flexibility and minimizes transfers.
Sounds like a serious case of PFE syndrome.

There's one point many here have to understand. Shanghai is not all the city of NY type. Neither in terms of size nor in terms of structure.

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which is an unparalleled amount of capacity.
In figures please... Capacity might be reached at a very slow average speed which is a case for NY. Its express lines run, say, at a speed of all normal lines of Moscow metro, for instance.

And then, what is their line capacity?

Moscow can feature 85-90sec headways (it is in fact, not in theory) between trains running at a speed of 40-41 km/h on average carrying some 2000 persons each. And this is only with 2 tracks.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 12:50 AM   #3814
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In figures please... Capacity might be reached at a very slow average speed which is a case for NY. Its express lines run, say, at a speed of all normal lines of Moscow metro, for instance.

And then, what is their line capacity?

Moscow can feature 85-90sec headways (it is in fact, not in theory) between trains running at a speed of 40-41 km/h on average carrying some 2000 persons each. And this is only with 2 tracks.
NYC was designed at a time when the structure of a city was very different than it is today. For instance, NYC's subway system brings you to specific streets rather than general neighborhoods (which is how mass transit designed after the 1950's are generally laid out). As such, it requires an express service to bring you to these general neighborhoods, otherwise suffering through a stop every few blocks would be torturous.

Shanghai's system (like most systems in the post-automobile era) brings you to general neighborhoods. The speeds are probably comparable to NYC express trains, if not faster. This is similar to the D.C. metro, which I believe would be very adequate for transportation around the city center. Anything within the middle ring road or even the outer ring road would probably be convenient by metro. That's not where the express services are needed IMO. But what about people living out in Anting, Qingpu, Nanhui City, or even in Jiangsu or Zhejiang? Line 11 for instance, could definitely use an express service. Line 16 already has express, which shows that the city planners are aware of the value.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 04:41 AM   #3815
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Look at the JR Yamanote line, which runs through all the major neighborhoods of Tokyo, and is paralleled along its entire length by local rapid transit service.
The JR Yamanote line is the local service it's stop spacing is no different from say Shanghai Metro Line 4.

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What benefit is there to having local trips along the orbital express corridor not be along the same alignment?
To have more stations to cover and serve more areas.

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The Lexington Avenue Line in NYC runs 59 trains per hour (or something very close to it) during peak hours. The conflicts at the junctions are less pronounced because each branch service terminate into either local or express services, but not both, so the four tracks are really more two set of almost entirely separate tracks.
I calculated 54 trains per hour. Which is great on paper but I doubt it consistently reaches that level given how delay filled the New York Subway is. Shanghai's Metro has an over 99% punctuality rate so there what you see is what you get.
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Old September 9th, 2017, 01:37 PM   #3816
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NYC was designed at a time when the structure of a city was very different than it is today. For instance, NYC's subway system brings you to specific streets rather than general neighborhoods (which is how mass transit designed after the 1950's are generally laid out). As such, it requires an express service to bring you to these general neighborhoods, otherwise suffering through a stop every few blocks would be torturous.

Shanghai's system (like most systems in the post-automobile era) brings you to general neighborhoods. The speeds are probably comparable to NYC express trains, if not faster. This is similar to the D.C. metro, which I believe would be very adequate for transportation around the city center. Anything within the middle ring road or even the outer ring road would probably be convenient by metro. That's not where the express services are needed IMO. But what about people living out in Anting, Qingpu, Nanhui City, or even in Jiangsu or Zhejiang? Line 11 for instance, could definitely use an express service. Line 16 already has express, which shows that the city planners are aware of the value.
You just prove what I said. Shanghai doesn't need express lines in terms of what they are in NY or London or RER in Paris. Right because it already has them.

As for the provinces and boroughs you've mentioned, they have CRH trains.
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Old September 9th, 2017, 07:40 PM   #3817
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You just prove what I said. Shanghai doesn't need express lines in terms of what they are in NY or London or RER in Paris. Right because it already has them.

As for the provinces and boroughs you've mentioned, they have CRH trains.
Although I have come around to realizing that there doesn't need to be express within the city core area itself, that does not mean that it doesn't need express. Go onto this website that shows you estimated journeys.

Here's some undisputable hard numbers. Huaqiao to Jing'an takes you approximately an hour and 19 minutes according to the website. This is a mere 30 miles outside of town. For comparison, take a look at the equivalent journey of 30 miles on the LIRR. The fastest train covers 30 miles in 49 minutes, a whole half hour faster!! Now granted those are peak journeys where the LIRR has skip stop service. If you look at weekend service, the travel times are around 1 hour 20 minutes on average, which is very similar to travel time on Line 11. These is concrete, indisputable evidence showing how desperately Shanghai's outer limits needs express service. I'm sure Line 11 can achieve similar times if there was express service that brings them at least into the areas within the middle or inner ring road. By saying Shanghai doesn't need express service period is saying that Shanghai people just don't value their time as much as New Yorkers.

And the Chinese wonder why they have such a hard time getting people to move out to the suburbs where they've built these magnificent but empty developments. The lack of express trains definitely undermine the viability of the metro network outside of the middle ring road. But fortunately, they might be able to rectify this by building parallel tracks for express services, which I believe is indispensable.

There is absolutely zero excuse for a 150 year old system (LIRR) to be twice as fast as a 10 year system (Shanghai metro outside the middle ring road) covering the same distance.

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Old September 11th, 2017, 09:16 AM   #3818
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Although I have come around to realizing that there doesn't need to be express within the city core area itself, that does not mean that it doesn't need express. Go onto this website that shows you estimated journeys.
Well, I didn't argue against that. I just stated that Shanghai metro lines are in fact the same as express line in NY or London. So, to be a truly express line in case of Shanghai, it has to gave distances between stations for over 5 km.

I remember once taking metro from Pudong to Hongqiao, it took me (I just turned on Stopwatch) some 1h 35 min. But this is almost 64 km, which means that the line itself is one of the fastest metro lines on the world.

Much time is wasted when changing lines and, of course, when waiting for a train. This is the problem Shanghai has to solve. We down here in Moscow are shocked when we see intervals up to 5 minutes even during rush hour. For us, even on Saturdays and Sundays headways are no more 3 - 4 minutes during the day and 90 sec during peak hours. SO, waiting time is almost zero. You see one train quickly going and in some 20 - 30 sec another one coming.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 11:08 PM   #3819
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Well, I didn't argue against that. I just stated that Shanghai metro lines are in fact the same as express line in NY or London. So, to be a truly express line in case of Shanghai, it has to gave distances between stations for over 5 km.

I remember once taking metro from Pudong to Hongqiao, it took me (I just turned on Stopwatch) some 1h 35 min. But this is almost 64 km, which means that the line itself is one of the fastest metro lines on the world.
....
An express service ( ~53 minutes) in the London area of that length would cost > U$5000 per year with a discounted annual pass .
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Old September 13th, 2017, 12:29 AM   #3820
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Although I have come around to realizing that there doesn't need to be express within the city core area itself, that does not mean that it doesn't need express. Go onto this website that shows you estimated journeys.
A journey from Huaqiao to Dishui Hu takes no less than 2 hours and 38 minutes. Now that is something. I like how one can go from Jiangsu Lu to Jiangsu Sheng (Province, i.e. the three last stops on the Huaqiao branch of line 11) using only one train.
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