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Old February 8th, 2008, 10:10 PM   #801
_Night City Dream_
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Drunkenmunkey88, They can just build ordinary metro lines but with distances between stations exceeding 5 km, for example. And of course, with correspondance to other normal lines.
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Old February 8th, 2008, 10:13 PM   #802
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By the way, I forgot about tram. As I know, at the beginning of the XX century Shanghai had rather huge tram system. Why doesn't it have it now? I think such great and densely populated city should have tram lines because in future, buses and trolleybuses won't be definitely enough.
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Old February 8th, 2008, 10:57 PM   #803
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"Scary" is the right word for the construction pics of the Hongqiao hub.
Thanks KIX111.

do you know what these huge A-Frames are for, that you can see on all the pics?
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Old February 9th, 2008, 12:13 AM   #804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
By the way, I forgot about tram. As I know, at the beginning of the XX century Shanghai had rather huge tram system. Why doesn't it have it now? I think such great and densely populated city should have tram lines because in future, buses and trolleybuses won't be definitely enough.
There were several factors that led to the final closedown of Shanghai tramway system:

1) The fleet was made up of a combination of Siemens and Alstom rolling stocks, whose supply was cut off after China entering the Korean War
2) The same embargo cut off the foreign supply of tram rails.
3) The expensive cost of road maintenance.
4) The general belief in the superiority of trolleybus.
5) Shanghai itself makes trolleybuses.

Since 1950s these tramcars became very unreliable due to the lack of imported parts, which caused them to become road traffic timebombs. The normal rails, which replaced Britain made special tramway rails, caused a lot of injuries as more and more people began to ride bicycles and normal railtrack became a kind of roadtrap. Shanghai closed down the last line No.3 in 1975, which used the Alstom cars until its last day.

BTW, very soon a Translohr tramway will be opened in Zhangjiang area in the district of Pudong.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 12:18 AM   #805
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right now, you can see a global rebirth of trams. So I think its just a matter of time untill we will see some Trams again in Shanghai.

Even paris re-introduced Trams a while ago
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Old February 9th, 2008, 01:41 AM   #806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
1) The lack of express service in planning is a crippling disadvantage for a network as large as Shanghai's. I'm not talking any bullshit skip-stop service or w/e other metros in the world has. I'm talking legit four track express EXACTLY how they have it in NYC subway where the middle two tracks pass local stations that are only accessible to outer two local tracks. Sorry if that explanation is condescending to some people, its just that I've brought this up before and there were many "interpretations" as to what express means. I mean express as in NYC Subway express service. I mean let alone enormous lines like 9 or 11, going from Baoshan to Zhongshan Park on Line 3 is already excruciatingly slow because trains stop at EVERY stop. If Shanghai urban transit planners know what's good, they will scrap these plans and draw up ones where there are express trains.
Why does it need express tracks? Most other metros have no express tracks and cope just fine.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 01:59 AM   #807
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Are over-head power sources common in Chinese metros? I thought Spanish systems were the only ones to use over-head power versus the more traditional 3rd rail.

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Old February 9th, 2008, 02:15 AM   #808
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Overhead wires I believe. Spain uses an overhead... Rail? I'm not aware of the technical term.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 02:45 AM   #809
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there are a lot of taxis in shanghai =) kinda balances up the lack of express service in metro
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Old February 9th, 2008, 03:15 AM   #810
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You're joking right? Taxis cost 10 yuan minimum while the longest trips on the metro is about 8 yuan.

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Why does it need express tracks? Most other metros have no express tracks and cope just fine.
That's because most other metros do not serve metropolitan areas spanning 2000 sq miles and over 20-30 million people. Also, most other metros do not have 40 km lines the way Shanghai's does. Compare it with the A train which goes from Washington Heights to Far Rockaway (Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens (50k is almost all express. Line 11 is going to be even longer than that. Can you imagine having to stop at every stop on 60 km line?
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Old February 9th, 2008, 03:41 AM   #811
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hehe it changed to 11yuan like 3 years ago, but its not that expensive, very affordable nowadays among shanghai ppl
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Old February 9th, 2008, 05:20 AM   #812
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Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
Can you imagine having to stop at every stop on 60 km line?
Well you stop at every station on LU's Central line, which, if going from West Ruislip to Epping is 54.9km, you'd pass through 37 stations meaning stations are on average 1.5km apart. Most passengers will not go from one extremity to the other. It takes an 1 hour 30 minutes. Line 11, from the map posted above, is going to have 35 stations over 60km, so the figures should be roughly similar if the line reaches 80km/h between stations.

I'm not neccessaarily saying it is a good thing, not having express services, just showing you that many lines don't have them and cope fine.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 08:13 AM   #813
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Is it Shanghai or Beijing that's building the world's largest transit system?
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Old February 9th, 2008, 05:06 PM   #814
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leo_sh thanks for a clear and detailed answer.
Hope, Shanghai will develop its tram network and it will be as comfortable and modern as its metro.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 05:09 PM   #815
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Quote:
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Is it Shanghai or Beijing that's building the world's largest transit system?
Shanghai.
But I think if we count all the mass transit, here Tokyo goes the first far away and it's a great deal to overtake it. So, considering all metro lines, all train lines, commuter train lines etc, Shanghai won't overtake Tokyo in 2020 or in the nearest future.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 05:39 PM   #816
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Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Shanghai.
But I think if we count all the mass transit, here Tokyo goes the first far away and it's a great deal to overtake it. So, considering all metro lines, all train lines, commuter train lines etc, Shanghai won't overtake Tokyo in 2020 or in the nearest future.
Shanghai will have the largest subway network but nowhere near the largest mass transit network. In 2020 Shanghai will have 970 km total urban mass transit network while Tokyo has over ~2000 km right now? And it is FAR behind New York City total urban rail length, with over ~2800 km of track now, excluding the Second Avenue Line
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Old February 9th, 2008, 07:31 PM   #817
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I dunno, I wouldn't call this short sighted...

the masterplan is almost perfect. it could be perfect if Shanghai's mass transportation planners did not commit that one mistake, which is not extending and putting a maglev station in Lujiazhui District, then go towards the EXpo 2010 site, which will really boost its chances in reaching its target passenger capacities, and make the business people really happy for the airport will be less than 15 mins away.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 07:39 PM   #818
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And it is FAR behind New York City total urban rail length, with over ~2800 km of track now...
IF you're going to compare NYC to Tokyo and Shanghai, make at least sure the comparison is a fair one, and don't compare the NYC track length to the Tokyo and (future) Shanghai railway length.
BTW your numbers are wrong: according to this quite trustworthy source, NYC has 656 miles of revenue track miles, which is 1055 kms...(2800???)
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Old February 9th, 2008, 08:09 PM   #819
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Originally Posted by Alargule View Post
IF you're going to compare NYC to Tokyo and Shanghai, make at least sure the comparison is a fair one, and don't compare the NYC track length to the Tokyo and (future) Shanghai railway length.
BTW your numbers are wrong: according to this quite trustworthy source, NYC has 656 miles of revenue track miles, which is 1055 kms...(2800???)
Allow me to clarify, future Shanghai route length will be 970km, Tokyo route length is ~2000km, and NYC route length is ~2800km. NYC subway has 368km of route length and 1055km of track length. The other ~2400km comes from NJ Transit, MetroNorth, and LIRR commuter rails, Bergen County Light Rail, Newark Subway, PATH Train, JFK skytrain, and Staten Island Railway. This is a fair comparison because we are comparing all urban rail transit in Tokyo, Shanghai, and NYC, not just underground subway (clearly Jinshan Railway and Qingpu railway in the future map are commuter rails, not subway lines). The commuter rail network in NYC is a monster, reaching places as far as Atlantic City to the south, New Haven to the north, and the tip of Long Island to the East.

By 2020, Shanghai is still going to have only 1/3 of the total urban rail network NYC has (after the Second Avenue subway is built). However, I wouldn't be surprised that this future map is only the first masterplan. They very well might draw up a 2020-2050 materplan that involves massive commuter rails that reach deep into Northern Zhejiang, Eastern Jiangsu, and Western tip of Chongming. I say this because 2020 is only 12 years away and the population of Shanghai will likely not plateau in such short time, while the pace of urban rail construction in NYC has pretty much stagnated for the past 50 years (its taking them 15 years to build a 14 km 2-track line). Soon, this 970km network will not be enough and they will draw up more plans. Probably by 2050, Shanghai's urban rail network will be comparable to NYC's.

Last edited by drunkenmunkey888; February 9th, 2008 at 08:18 PM.
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Old February 9th, 2008, 09:24 PM   #820
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So, what do you count in when you're defining Tokyo's or Shanghai's "commuter rail network"? And what do you leave out of the comparison? Because this source states that the Tokyo urban railway network is over 1800 miles (close to 2900 km). That would make it least just as large as New York's, but don't forget that the total Tokyo Metropolitan area as defined in this report is smaller than New York's. Relatively speaking, then, Tokyo's metropolitan area boasts more railway miles/sq mile.
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