daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 9th, 2008, 09:34 PM   #821
koolkid
Registered User
 
koolkid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 2,327
Likes (Received): 133

Indeed
__________________
My New York by Krzycho
koolkid no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 9th, 2008, 11:59 PM   #822
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,064
Likes (Received): 101379

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
Shanghai will have the largest subway network but nowhere near the largest mass transit network. In 2020 Shanghai will have 970 km total urban mass transit network while Tokyo has over ~2000 km right now? And it is FAR behind New York City total urban rail length, with over ~2800 km of track now, excluding the Second Avenue Line
How come New York has got more than 2800 km? It should be a mistake or some rails are counted twice or more.
Tokyo, if I'm not mistaken has got more than 3000 rm of rails.
__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库

_Night City Dream_ está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2008, 12:05 AM   #823
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,064
Likes (Received): 101379

Alargule, thanks for clarifying the discussion. I want to add as well, that Tokyo Metropolitain area functions as a whole, so we can consider the whole mass transit. What about NY and Atlantic City? NY and New Haven? Are they so well joined together that there's no difference, do they all represent smth which functions as a whole?

And one thing I don't understand:
>>NYC subway has 368km of route length and 1055km of track length.
What do you mean by route length?
__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库

_Night City Dream_ está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2008, 08:21 AM   #824
drunkenmunkey888
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Alargule, thanks for clarifying the discussion. I want to add as well, that Tokyo Metropolitain area functions as a whole, so we can consider the whole mass transit. What about NY and Atlantic City? NY and New Haven? Are they so well joined together that there's no difference, do they all represent smth which functions as a whole?

And one thing I don't understand:
>>NYC subway has 368km of route length and 1055km of track length.
What do you mean by route length?
like for example queens boulevard line is around 10 km from queens plaza to union turnpike. route length is 10km but track length is 40km because it is a 4 track line but it spans only 10 km
drunkenmunkey888 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2008, 11:21 AM   #825
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,064
Likes (Received): 101379

What is the Line 11 length expected?
__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库

_Night City Dream_ está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2008, 12:29 PM   #826
sarflonlad
Registered User
 
sarflonlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,086
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
And one thing I don't understand:
>>NYC subway has 368km of route length and 1055km of track length.
What do you mean by route length?
I understand what this means alright - but I don't understand why track length is relevant. No other transit system talks of it. Every line has at least an "up" and a "down" (so that's double length) - some have 4-tracked sections and some approaching termini even have 8 track sections - but it's not actually additional route.

London currently has the largest subway system with 400km route/revenue collecting length. I believe it also has the second largest urban rail system behind Tokyo - no idea on its length though.

Underground is the only way Shanghai can really go. It's developed prior to railways - whereas e.g. London, developed because of its railways.

The comment about express services is of note. Shanghai could do with some express services from the satellite suburbs. Surely the commute on a subway system becomes tedious?
sarflonlad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2008, 02:50 PM   #827
drunkenmunkey888
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
How come New York has got more than 2800 km? It should be a mistake or some rails are counted twice or more.
Tokyo, if I'm not mistaken has got more than 3000 rm of rails.
NYC has more than 2800 km of route length (track length is never relevant and no one uses it for any comparisons ever). Here is the breakdown:

LIRR: 1100 km (longest branches are Greenport branch and Montauk branch with 153 km and 169 km respectively.)
Metro North: 614 km (longest branch, Port Jervis branch terminates at Port Jervis, NY with 152 km)
NJ Transit: It was difficult finding official figures but based on this map, and knowing that Morristown line is 92km, it is reasonable to estimate 600-700km total length
NYC Subway: 368 km
JFK Airtrain: 13km
Staten Island Railway: 22km
PATH Train:22km
Newark Light Rail: 8.5 km
Hudson Bergen Light Rail:20.6 km
Total: 2818 km

Going back on subject, Shanghai's 2020 metro will be ~3 times NYC's subway route length but only 1/3 of NYC's total urban rail network length. Shanghai's 2020 masterplan is quite bland. NYC and Tokyo's networks are a nice mix of subways, light rails, monorails/people movers, and commuter rails, while Shanghai's is just one big monotonous network (hopefully this will change in the future)
drunkenmunkey888 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2008, 02:55 PM   #828
leo_sh
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 640
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
NYC has more than 2800 km of route length (track length is never relevant and no one uses it for any comparisons ever). Here is the breakdown:

LIRR: 1100 km (longest branches are Greenport branch and Montauk branch with 153 km and 169 km respectively.)
Metro North: 614 km (longest branch, Port Jervis branch terminates at Port Jervis, NY with 152 km)
NJ Transit: It was difficult finding official figures but based on this map, and knowing that Morristown line is 92km, it is reasonable to estimate 600-700km total length
NYC Subway: 368 km
JFK Airtrain: 13km
Staten Island Railway: 22km
PATH Train:22km
Newark Light Rail: 8.5 km
Hudson Bergen Light Rail:20.6 km
Total: 2818 km

Going back on subject, Shanghai's 2020 metro will be ~3 times NYC's subway route length but only 1/3 of NYC's total urban rail network length.
How about the national railway within the municipality of Shanghai? The tracks used by Shanghai Electricity, Shanghai Alstom, Shanghai Baosteel, Shanghai Power, and many, many other?
leo_sh no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2008, 08:49 PM   #829
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,064
Likes (Received): 101379

Drunkenmunkey, may I repeat my question?
Which area do you consider? It seems to me that you consider the area that is much bigger than the city, even than its agglomeration.
While Tokyo area functions as the whole, there's no difference between Tokyo city, its countless suburbs etc. It's just like a huge huge city, that's why we have to consider all the rail system.
__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库

_Night City Dream_ está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2008, 09:24 PM   #830
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
NYC has more than 2800 km of route length (track length is never relevant and no one uses it for any comparisons ever). Here is the breakdown:

LIRR: 1100 km (longest branches are Greenport branch and Montauk branch with 153 km and 169 km respectively.)
Metro North: 614 km (longest branch, Port Jervis branch terminates at Port Jervis, NY with 152 km)
NJ Transit: It was difficult finding official figures but based on this map, and knowing that Morristown line is 92km, it is reasonable to estimate 600-700km total length
NYC Subway: 368 km
JFK Airtrain: 13km
Staten Island Railway: 22km
PATH Train:22km
Newark Light Rail: 8.5 km
Hudson Bergen Light Rail:20.6 km
Total: 2818 km

Going back on subject, Shanghai's 2020 metro will be ~3 times NYC's subway route length but only 1/3 of NYC's total urban rail network length. Shanghai's 2020 masterplan is quite bland. NYC and Tokyo's networks are a nice mix of subways, light rails, monorails/people movers, and commuter rails, while Shanghai's is just one big monotonous network (hopefully this will change in the future)
Are you even going to bother responding to my comparision, or do you just prefer arguments that you agree with?
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2008, 12:41 AM   #831
drunkenmunkey888
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 53


this the comparison you were referring to?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Well you stop at every station on LU's Central line, which, if going from West Ruislip to Epping is 54.9km, you'd pass through 37 stations meaning stations are on average 1.5km apart. Most passengers will not go from one extremity to the other. It takes an 1 hour 30 minutes. Line 11, from the map posted above, is going to have 35 stations over 60km, so the figures should be roughly similar if the line reaches 80km/h between stations.

I'm not neccessaarily saying it is a good thing, not having express services, just showing you that many lines don't have them and cope fine.
i mean in this case, then yeah longer distances between stations makes not having express easier to deal with. However, then a coverage problem arises. What about those people living between the 1.5km? they would need to walk over half a km to the nearest subway station. Don't you think that instead of having 1.5km between stations that you have .7km between stations and that certain lines make all the stops while other lines make stops 2.5km apart on the same four-track line?

Example: Queens Boulevard line E,F,G,R,V train services. The stretch from Union Turnpike to Lexington Avenue 53rd street is roughly 12km apart. There is a total of 18 stations, .67km apart. E train (F detours after Roosevelt avenue) makes 5 stops in that stretch on the middle two tracks while R (detours after Queens Plaza), V, and G (on weekends and late nights) make all 18 stops. That way, coverage and convenience problem are both solved.

So grittiness, old age, and rat infestation aside, isn't NYC subway by far the greatest system in the world by a wide margin? Shanghai has a chance to create a subway system from scratch, why not include certain elements
like four track express, which makes the NYC subway almost perfect?
drunkenmunkey888 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2008, 01:07 AM   #832
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

You can get a bus to a metro station, it is not hard.

Express services are a good addition, and one of NYC subway's (few) good points, but they're a relic of the past and something that wouldn't be cost-effective these days. Almost every other city in the world has no express services for it's metro lines, so it really isn't much of a fuss.
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2008, 01:14 AM   #833
xote
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,198
Likes (Received): 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post


You're joking right? Taxis cost 10 yuan minimum while the longest trips on the metro is about 8 yuan.



That's because most other metros do not serve metropolitan areas spanning 2000 sq miles and over 20-30 million people. Also, most other metros do not have 40 km lines the way Shanghai's does. Compare it with the A train which goes from Washington Heights to Far Rockaway (Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens (50k is almost all express. Line 11 is going to be even longer than that. Can you imagine having to stop at every stop on 60 km line?
A suburban network in the style of French RER, German S-bahn, or Spanish Cercanias could be more useful than an express system.

The only reason that New York has express trains is because the center of the city is long and skinny. Meaning that the lines have to be bundled in Manhattan, and if you are going to have more tracks to allow for this, might as well offer slightly different service patterns (i.e., express versus local).

Shanghai, as far as I know, does not have this constraint. Hence, it does not need express/local services.
xote no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2008, 01:40 AM   #834
drunkenmunkey888
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 53


Its not about geographic restraint. Doesn't London and Tokyo also have them (though not as widespread as NYC)? And isn't Seoul Subway Line 9 having a 3 track setup with express during rush hour? Every city can use express service. Most of them just don't have the financial budget to operate them. New Yorkers cannot imagine commuting in a system without express trains and consider any subway without them inferior (rightfully so). Besides aren't S-Bahn, RER, etc. more expensive? NYC express and local are both 2 USD for a flat fare anywhere in the city.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
You can get a bus to a metro station, it is not hard.

Express services are a good addition, and one of NYC subway's (few) good points, but they're a relic of the past and something that wouldn't be cost-effective these days. Almost every other city in the world has no express services for it's metro lines, so it really isn't much of a fuss.

Buses are a pain in the ass though. No one wants to take buses. Anything holds them up, traffic jam, police counter-terrorist search, puerto-rican day parades, aids-walks, trucks unloading large shipments in a two lane street, double-parking, angry middle-eastern cab drivers, handicapped people getting on and off, lack of reliable schedule, etc. (not that these are bad, they give a city an important part of its character) Most people prefer subway-only trip.

Its interesting how you mention express service in subways are a relic of the past... because the new Second Avenue line (T) will only have two tracks, inconsistent with the rest of the system. Howcome they wouldn't be cost-effective now but were in the past? You brought up a very interesting point on which I'd definitely like to hear more about.
drunkenmunkey888 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2008, 03:54 AM   #835
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
Its interesting how you mention express service in subways are a relic of the past... because the new Second Avenue line (T) will only have two tracks, inconsistent with the rest of the system. Howcome they wouldn't be cost-effective now but were in the past? You brought up a very interesting point on which I'd definitely like to hear more about.
You know what I mean, i'm comparing it to the way the Victorians worked here, they did things that would be considered unthinkable in this world of cost-anaylsis.
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2008, 09:10 PM   #836
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,064
Likes (Received): 101379

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post

Buses are a pain in the ass though.
You've got the first place!

By the way, would you answer my question, please?
__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库

_Night City Dream_ está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2008, 09:35 PM   #837
drunkenmunkey888
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Drunkenmunkey, may I repeat my question?
Which area do you consider? It seems to me that you consider the area that is much bigger than the city, even than its agglomeration.
While Tokyo area functions as the whole, there's no difference between Tokyo city, its countless suburbs etc. It's just like a huge huge city, that's why we have to consider all the rail system.
Well the tri-state area is not as coherent as the Tokyo Metropolitan area because political boundaries are drawn in a way to discourage that. For example, there are four bridges and two tunnels spanning the East River, Five spanning the Harlem river, but only 1 bridge and two tunnels crossing the Hudson river, both of which charge hefty tolls. So development and cohesion is quite uneven on the West side of Manhattan compared to East side. If you are talking in terms of upstate NY or Long Island, then there is very little difference between Westchester and the Bronx or Nassau and Queens. New Haven is a on the Northeastern fringe of the NYC metropolitan area just as Atlantic city is on the Southern fringe. As far as commuting patterns go, a significant majority of people between the area from New Haven to Atlantic City commute to Manhattan for work, thereby effectively becoming de facto suburbs even though politically, they are in New Jersey or Connecticut. In essence, there is nothing too dissimilar between the Tokyo Metropolitan Area and NYC Metropolitan area
drunkenmunkey888 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 01:00 PM   #838
_Night City Dream_
Registered User
 
_Night City Dream_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 19,064
Likes (Received): 101379

Then, if so, we can't consider the whole route length in km for this territory if it doesn't function as a whole system.
Because speaking about Shanghai, for ex. we still can't count all the railroads because Zhejiang province, for ex. is not Shanghai any more, and there is a "village gap" between Shanghai City and the province.

So, I resume that it is fair to calculate the lines and railways only within the big City, if it is also a city with its satellites but they all are joined together in a way to represent a whole system.
__________________
Big Cities is one of the major inventions by human beings

My Baku / Мой Баку / 我的巴库

_Night City Dream_ está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 02:05 PM   #839
ddes
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,464
Likes (Received): 928

It is pointless that everyone's arguing about "mine's bigger than yours".

How about looking at it at a smaller picture?

Tokyo: count only everything that Tokyo Metro Co. Ltd and Toei operate.
New York: count only everything operated by NYCTA.
Shanghai: Shanghai Metro Corporation and Shanghai Modern Rail Transit company.

This gives you a more accurate scale of how massive, how dense a city's metro system is.

Every great city needs time to grow its rail network. Why walk when Shanghai's still crawling? Suburban rail will come, either in a more "Japan's JR" network style or a more direct network like Paris' RER, suburban rail will come.... Just not in this generation.
ddes no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2008, 03:59 PM   #840
drunkenmunkey888
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 53

@ Night City Dream,

I think the general idea is to look at commuting patterns. If most people living in Southern Connecticut or Northern Jersey live there but still commute to NYC for work and leisure, then they are suburbs of NYC and considered to be part of the NYC area even though politically, they are New Jersey and Connecticut. Same with Zhejiang and Jiangsu. If/when Shanghai builds commuter rails into Northern Jiangsu and Southern Zhejiang and many people living in lets say, Kunshan or Jiaxing habitually commute to Shanghai for work and entertainment, then these would be essentially satellite cities or bedroom communities even though politically they are not part of Shanghai municipality and should be considered part of the Shanghai metropolitan area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddes View Post
Every great city needs time to grow its rail network. Why walk when Shanghai's still crawling? Suburban rail will come, either in a more "Japan's JR" network style or a more direct network like Paris' RER, suburban rail will come.... Just not in this generation.
It was more of an off topic debate about whether Tokyo or NYC had a larger network. But yeah that was essentially what I said earlier. These are only plans for 1990-2020. They will be finished in 12 years. Thats a really short time. 12 years ago, 1996, seems like yesterday. Perhaps Shanghai will then release plans for 2020-2050 of massive suburban rail and light rail/monorail/linimo. For example, Dongtan will have an area a third the size of Manhattan. Cars are banned and one metro stop is not enough to serve the entire town. I wouldn't be surprised if it has its own environment friendly mass transit lines that feed into the nearby commuter rail or metro stations. Same with Lingang, one metro line will not be enough to serve the entire circular port. They will probably have to build monorail/light rail because the city will have an area of over 100 sq miles (300 sq km). So far, neither of these have been shown in masterplans so its safe to assume that there probably will be a second master plan for 2020-2050

Last edited by drunkenmunkey888; February 13th, 2008 at 04:05 PM.
drunkenmunkey888 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
metro, shanghai, tram

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium