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Old February 13th, 2008, 09:49 PM   #841
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But you know, I may agree with you but one point that stops me from doing so is the notion of a whole system. I can't count the line which connects two cities (city to a town, to a village to another city) if there's still a gap between them.
I made a trip to Hangzhou from Shanghai, but I wouldn't count this railway as part of Shanghai Mass transit. Yes, it is a commuter rail but to me it is not the same as City railway or a subway line. It's something different that I can't accept as similar to subway or to light rails or to heavy rails within a megapolis.

While in Tokyo, everything is OK in this sense I mean railway lines are counted because they are within the huge huge urban formation.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 12:42 AM   #842
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There is something that cities can learn from each other, but every country has its own features, why you guys repeat and insistently want Shanghai Metro and all the surrounded settings to be on express type as NYC, and make everything just so crowded as a whole like Tokyo?

Express line in NYC is mostly conducted in Manhattan like xeto defined, the island is skinny and long between north and south, what's more, the metro line in NYC with express tracks are mostly on the same direction by one combined track system, i.e., in Manhattan, 4, 5, 6 lines are running like that, 1,2,3 as well; and in Queens, R, V, G, F and E is respectively on express and local track within same direction line. On Shanghai Metro, the city's setting is different from that of NYC, so the network is proper for Shanghai without express track but a more relatively scattered line’s system to meet the commuter's needs.

About Tokyo, it is a different concept from Shanghai and NYC. Tokyo's metro area is unavoidably developed like that because Japan's industrialization but small land property. Shanghai and NYC metro area doesn't need to be concentrated like that, and in my perception, the gaps between satellite cities are much better.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 09:21 PM   #843
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Hi, I just wanted to clear up some things about the Tokyo system. Maybe after some things are understood they can be applied to Shanghai.

In Tokyo, you got your subways in the core that serve the most dense areas. Then you got your railroads that expand out. The subway is so dense that I think in some wards you are only 400m from a metro stop at any given point. The railroads have no way of getting into the core because it is so dense already (one of the newest subway lines is 48m underground at it's lowest points b/c there is so much stuff underground already). So what's happened is that the railroads and subways made a deal. The railroads build their lines from the subrubs and into an existing subway line. Then it runs on the subway. Many times (especially at peak hours) they are express and only stop at the busier stations (there are sometimes 4 tracks at these stations instead of the usual 2, so that local trains can pull over and let the express pass). This is faster; instead of everyone jamming onto subway cars and going to a station outside the core, then transfering onto the railroads, the railroad comes get you in the city. So many times, you'll be waiting for the subway, your train will come and it won't be a Tokyo Metro train set; instead it's some other company (anyone can take it, tickets work all the same). You will also notice that the railroad cars have identical interiors to subway cars (seats flush against the walls, with large spaces for people to cram in and stand). Railroads and subways are so integrated that most foreigners think it's all the same, b/c it really does seem that way.

Shanghai can adopt some of these ideas, at least for short time. Remember that China will become highly urbanized in the next few decades. Right now the populatoin is at 50/50 urban/rural. The pace of infastructure construction, as fast as it is, is not fast enough. Even though there is a lot of land in the Shanghai metro area to build out on, a quick solution to getting people out of the dense core would be a express system similar to Tokyo and New York's system. In the meantime, a better solution, if there is one, can be created.

P.S. nobody is going to commute to NYC from AC. Atlantic City is far from NYC; Philadelphia is much closer and AC belongs to the Philly Metro area anyway.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 09:21 PM   #844
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New Yorkers cannot imagine commuting in a system without express trains and consider any subway without them inferior (rightfully so).
New Yorkers thinking OTHER subways are inferior? That's rich.
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Old February 16th, 2008, 08:08 AM   #845
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Quote:
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New Yorkers thinking OTHER subways are inferior? That's rich.
They're right, as far as Chicago is concerned.
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Old February 16th, 2008, 10:46 PM   #846
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They're right, as far as Chicago is concerned.
Well, actually, I think that the Chicago system is even worse(Loopty loop what are in an amusement park), but, that was not my point. I was comparing looking down on other MAGNIFICIENT systems such as Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Madrid because they don't have as extensive 4-track layouts on their lines.

THAT is rich.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 12:09 AM   #847
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Well, actually, I think that the Chicago system is even worse(Loopty loop what are in an amusement park), but, that was not my point. I was comparing looking down on other MAGNIFICIENT systems such as Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Madrid because they don't have as extensive 4-track layouts on their lines.

THAT is rich.
Why is that funny? IMO NYC has by far the subway service in the world. So what if its stations and tracks are a bit dirty? All those subways you mentioned, Tokyo's the oldest and only half as old as NYC's. Madrid and Hong Kong are only 1/5th as old. Its trains are clean and the new trains are much nicer than anything I've seen on Hong Kong MTR or Tokyo metro (can't speak for Madrid).

NYC has 24 Hours service, something that Shanghai metro should consider having too. I mean right now it closes at 10pm right? That is just absolutely ridiculous! I mean what was the transit authority thinking? 5 year olds have 10 o'clock bedtimes! I mean if not 24 hour service, then AT ABSOLUTE LEAST 12 am.

But heres an anecdote on why 4-track layouts can be very handy. The Washington metro (which is one huge bomb shelter) has recently been performing track and station maintenance on the Red, Blue, Orange, and Green lines. This causes trains to share one track both ways at the stretches affected. So for example, if theres construction on the stretch between Farrugut North and Judiciary Square, an eastbound train needs to wait at Farrugut North for a westbound train to go from Judiciary Square to reach Farrugut North before it can depart. And while that same train is traversing this stretch, the next westbound train must wait at Judiciary Square for this one to pass. Sharing one track for two directions cause delays up to twenty minutes. In NYC when they perform such maintenance or construction work, they just re-route the trains to unaffected tracks and service continues as usual. The only bad things is that express trains make local stops or local trains make express stops (which can admittedly be problematic, but just get off at the next stop and take the local train in the reverse direction back. Beats waiting 20 minutes for the train in the opposite direction to pass). There are also maintenance conveniences to four-track layout, not just express service.

Last edited by drunkenmunkey888; February 17th, 2008 at 12:17 AM.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 02:05 AM   #848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
Why is that funny? IMO NYC has by far the subway service in the world. So what if its stations and tracks are a bit dirty? All those subways you mentioned, Tokyo's the oldest and only half as old as NYC's. Madrid and Hong Kong are only 1/5th as old. Its trains are clean and the new trains are much nicer than anything I've seen on Hong Kong MTR or Tokyo metro (can't speak for Madrid).

NYC has 24 Hours service, something that Shanghai metro should consider having too. I mean right now it closes at 10pm right? That is just absolutely ridiculous! I mean what was the transit authority thinking? 5 year olds have 10 o'clock bedtimes! I mean if not 24 hour service, then AT ABSOLUTE LEAST 12 am.

But heres an anecdote on why 4-track layouts can be very handy. The Washington metro (which is one huge bomb shelter) has recently been performing track and station maintenance on the Red, Blue, Orange, and Green lines. This causes trains to share one track both ways at the stretches affected. So for example, if theres construction on the stretch between Farrugut North and Judiciary Square, an eastbound train needs to wait at Farrugut North for a westbound train to go from Judiciary Square to reach Farrugut North before it can depart. And while that same train is traversing this stretch, the next westbound train must wait at Judiciary Square for this one to pass. Sharing one track for two directions cause delays up to twenty minutes. In NYC when they perform such maintenance or construction work, they just re-route the trains to unaffected tracks and service continues as usual. The only bad things is that express trains make local stops or local trains make express stops (which can admittedly be problematic, but just get off at the next stop and take the local train in the reverse direction back. Beats waiting 20 minutes for the train in the opposite direction to pass). There are also maintenance conveniences to four-track layout, not just express service.
New York is a city with a mass grid layout. You can dig up a shallow pit in the grid roads, lay 4 tracks and cover it up.

All other cities suffer from:

1. Being much older than new york and not necessarily following a grid format in road layouts etc. There are things in the way that mean subways are built deep bore... which means:

2. Deep bore is more expensive than cut and cover methods. Having 4 tracks would mean having 4 tunnels - that's very expensive.

NYC is lucky to have a 4-track system: you can divert when there's engineering works going on and you can also run the system 24 hours.

But disruption caused by engineering can be reduced by building a good system in the first place and the demand for a 24 hour service - well, even in NY it's not that high and nor are the frequencies offered. It's a luxury, not a prerequisite. Admittedly, if Shanghai put in 4 tracks it would probably be thankful in the future when construction costs in China are greater.

New Yorkers seem to rate their system highly amongst others... but push come to shove, if it wasn't in New York, it wouldn't be worth talking about. Sorry but there's nothing unique or particularly special about it other than it's in NYC!
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Old February 17th, 2008, 04:02 AM   #849
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But from what I remembered, Shanghai's subway stations were not that deep underground. They were probably as deep as NYC's on average. And also, isn't Shanghai built on muddy ground so deep bore wouldn't be as expensive as it usually is?

I mean we are talking Shanghai here. Four-track system is going to be more expensive, but for a city like Shanghai, isn't it worth it? Like even in Beijing or Guangzhou, I wouldn't think four-track is a necessity. But Shanghai is widely acknowledged to be the successor of NYC around the middle of the 21st century. Don't you think it needs a subway system at least on par with that of NYC?
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Old February 17th, 2008, 07:59 AM   #850
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Quote:
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Why is that funny? IMO NYC has by far the subway service in the world. So what if its stations and tracks are a bit dirty? All those subways you mentioned, Tokyo's the oldest and only half as old as NYC's. Madrid and Hong Kong are only 1/5th as old. Its trains are clean and the new trains are much nicer than anything I've seen on Hong Kong MTR or Tokyo metro (can't speak for Madrid).
A BIT dirty? The system is entirely run down thanks to the federal government syphoning off funds from this part of the country to build highways in the sun belt.

Quote:
NYC has 24 Hours service, something that Shanghai metro should consider having too. I mean right now it closes at 10pm right? That is just absolutely ridiculous! I mean what was the transit authority thinking? 5 year olds have 10 o'clock bedtimes! I mean if not 24 hour service, then AT ABSOLUTE LEAST 12 am.
24 hour service is VASTLY overrated. What is the point of having a 24 hour system if during the middle of the night some trains come as infrequently as half an hour?

Quote:
But heres an anecdote on why 4-track layouts can be very handy. The Washington metro (which is one huge bomb shelter) has recently been performing track and station maintenance on the Red, Blue, Orange, and Green lines. This causes trains to share one track both ways at the stretches affected. So for example, if theres construction on the stretch between Farrugut North and Judiciary Square, an eastbound train needs to wait at Farrugut North for a westbound train to go from Judiciary Square to reach Farrugut North before it can depart. And while that same train is traversing this stretch, the next westbound train must wait at Judiciary Square for this one to pass. Sharing one track for two directions cause delays up to twenty minutes. In NYC when they perform such maintenance or construction work, they just re-route the trains to unaffected tracks and service continues as usual. The only bad things is that express trains make local stops or local trains make express stops (which can admittedly be problematic, but just get off at the next stop and take the local train in the reverse direction back. Beats waiting 20 minutes for the train in the opposite direction to pass). There are also maintenance conveniences to four-track layout, not just express service.
I lived for a summer in DC, so I got accustomed to the Metro. The Metro, while it is not as extensive in the city and has way too many km of tracks in the suburbs, is for me a great system, impossible to comprae with New York beacuse they are so different. New York has better coverage, but Washington is better maintained. New York has a flat fare, Washington has a far by distance. Washington's Metro is mandated to be financially sufficient, New York's system has to compete with suburban rail for funding by its agency.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 10:23 AM   #851
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drunkenmunkey888, please read ChinaboyUSA's post one more time.

I agree that 10pm is just comedy.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 12:10 PM   #852
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But from what I remembered, Shanghai's subway stations were not that deep underground. They were probably as deep as NYC's on average. And also, isn't Shanghai built on muddy ground so deep bore wouldn't be as expensive as it usually is?

I mean we are talking Shanghai here. Four-track system is going to be more expensive, but for a city like Shanghai, isn't it worth it? Like even in Beijing or Guangzhou, I wouldn't think four-track is a necessity. But Shanghai is widely acknowledged to be the successor of NYC around the middle of the 21st century. Don't you think it needs a subway system at least on par with that of NYC?
Indeed some of Shanghai's lines are predominantly on raised viaducts (lines 3&4 from what I remember) and not underground at all. Though I think the underground lines are deep bore from what I remember. The technology to build through muddy ground has been around for a while (you freeze the ground with liquid nitrogen then bore).

Define what you would require for it to be "on par" with NY... cos from what I see NY could learn from Shanghai: clean things up a little, smart card ticketing, platform edge doors etc.

New York has now ceded it's position to London as the global financial king. London does not have a 24 hour subway system and whilst its longer in length than NYCs, it carries less passengers. Granted London does have 24 hour buses and some surburban rail services... but this just proves whilst a subway is important, it's clearly not the be all and end all of a city. Shanghai's metro plans are impressive - but also a little dull (i.e. another generic Asian metro that will be massive in size) - but there's no reason why in the future we couldn't see 24 hour running at weekends on the system... if there's a demand... i mean they turn the lights off on Pudong about 10pm for a start.

Last edited by sarflonlad; February 17th, 2008 at 12:16 PM.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 12:59 PM   #853
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4 track lines may be successfully replaced by 2 normal lines. I don't see the necessity of cinstruction 4 track lines. yes, it is not bad, it may help maintain express and common routes but in fact it is all the same as two 2-track parallel lines, right? So, in my opinion, 2 lines with 2 tracks will be better if we build them quite close to each other (with a let's say 300-meter gap between). One may pffer ordinary service, the other may be an express line. And like that, the city coverage seems better than with 4-track lines.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 02:47 PM   #854
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I don't really understand some arguments along this thread.

Some want a suburban rail system for Shanghai NOW, while others expect it to have a dedicated express track while some just want it to run 24 hours.

We are still discussing the ever-expanding Shanghai Metro and its crazy pace of expansion right?

Asian cities on average, close very early, exceptions to the rule include Hong Kong and maybe, forcibly Singapore. A 24 hour Asian city doesn't currently exist for a metro to stay open throughout the night.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 03:50 PM   #855
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I see that many people here think of metro of a city as their home-made cookie that should shape in exactly the way they want. But let us not forget that metro system is a tremedous investment in both finance and engineering, built and designed for the benefit of the city of M+ residents. Every metro system, every individual line, every stop, every tunnel could well be unique to fit its rider's needs. It is reasonable to compare, but the setting also needs to be taken into accounts.

The performance of Shanghai in terms of ridership is still below world's average. According to wiki, it's length ranks 9th (here)but ridership only ranks 14 (here), although quickly rising. It takes time for the city's residents to shift their habit from driving to riding. It also takes time for the majority of the mast population to aford commuting in metro. Also, the mega city has yet to develop an urban-economics pattern like Tokyo where tens of millions of people flood to the city everyday for a living. These all may take years to decades to happen, and that would be the time for some funtionality that you suggested may be demanded. But clearly NOT NOW. As far as a public transportation system is concerned, Shanghai metro is still infant, despite its size which is ever growing.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 05:09 PM   #856
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But from what I remembered, Shanghai's subway stations were not that deep underground. They were probably as deep as NYC's on average. And also, isn't Shanghai built on muddy ground so deep bore wouldn't be as expensive as it usually is?
I think muddy ground is bad for tunnel boring, something like clay is good, London has a clay stratum and that's why it has had an extensive deep-level network since the start of the 20th century.
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Old February 17th, 2008, 06:45 PM   #857
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The performance of Shanghai in terms of ridership is still below world's average. According to wiki, it's length ranks 9th (here)but ridership only ranks 14 (here), although quickly rising. It takes time for the city's residents to shift their habit from driving to riding.
Partly I agree with you, but I was told there are 2.5 mln cars in Shanghai and the subway was (by the moment I lived there, in 2006) not so vell developed.
It's not only driving-riding aspect, people who don't drive, still use publice transport other than metro: buses and trolleybuses and taxi of course. As soon as they realise that metro is much more confortable and better than buses and trolleybuses, the ridership number will increase.

The length is not by the way a factor to consider. It doesn't speak a lot, actually, only it tells us that people don't travel for work so much, it's not far away in city. On the contrary, total number of ridership is worth considering.
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Old February 24th, 2008, 10:06 PM   #858
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line 9

Does any one know when line 9 will connect with line 3
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Old February 25th, 2008, 02:01 AM   #859
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Does any one know when line 9 will connect with line 3
the end of 2008, 3,4,9 will be able to transfer at yishan rd.
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Old February 25th, 2008, 06:46 PM   #860
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I really envy Shanghai, such expansion really boggles my mind.

What else will be opened in 2008? Only that part?
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