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Old February 10th, 2009, 11:28 PM   #1081
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drunkenmunkey888 can't help mentioning his lovely 4-track lines here and there.

Quote:
parallel 2-track lines would double the catchment area for essentially the same cost.
Sure, this will be more efficient and effective than 4-track system.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 11:30 PM   #1082
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Originally Posted by Deng View Post
Also, from my experience on the Shanghai metro, getting across town doesn't take a ridiculous amount of time. For example, from the end of line 2 at Zhangjiang to People's Square takes 15 minutes including time spent waiting on the platform. I haven't done a complete end-to-end test but I am sure that it is not as bad as it's made out to be.
I remember taking the whole line 3 and that was some 40 minutes.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 07:21 AM   #1083
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Originally Posted by Deng View Post
I don't believe that the first picture (the one without the long blue lines) illustrates anything much to worry about.

The lines don't really go into the suburbs. So for service to Chongming or some other outlying area I believe there will be suburban rail or express tracks to accommodate. Anything short of that would be incomprehensible.
I really really hope that you are right. I mean its not too late to add express service above or underneath the existing lines like the 4,5,6 service north of Grand Central. Hopefully Shanghai metro planners have that on their drawing boards
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Old February 11th, 2009, 09:16 AM   #1084
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i don't think the officials will consider 4track express service in shanghai, however ,there are some stations with 3tracks, maybe this configuration will allow certain trains to bypass stations in peak direction, maybe we will have semi-express in the future?
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Old February 11th, 2009, 07:36 PM   #1085
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Originally Posted by napkcirtap View Post
i don't think the officials will consider 4track express service in shanghai, however ,there are some stations with 3tracks, maybe this configuration will allow certain trains to bypass stations in peak direction, maybe we will have semi-express in the future?
Which lines have three track configuration?
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Old February 11th, 2009, 10:15 PM   #1086
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Subway line 7 train picture


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Old February 11th, 2009, 10:55 PM   #1087
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Similar to the rolling stock at which line? 3? With an exception for the frontal part.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 01:03 AM   #1088
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When exactly starts the line 7?
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Old February 12th, 2009, 01:37 AM   #1089
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Line 7

Line seven is planned to be opened by the end of 2009 or begin of 2010.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 03:11 AM   #1090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Night City Dream_ View Post
Similar to the rolling stock at which line? 3? With an exception for the frontal part.
No, I believe that's pretty much identical to the new stock on Line 9. Line 3 trains are Alstom, like the 8-car stock on Lines 1 and 2, and the Line 8 stock.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 03:56 AM   #1091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
Its 21 lines is not as great as it seems! It should be a point of disappointment rather than celebration! The reason why Shanghai seems to be on its way to have the largest metro system in the world is because no other city is stupid enough not to separate suburban rail from subway. Look at other truly world class cities, London, Tokyo, Paris, New York, Rome, Copenhagen, etc. They all have a metro system that services the downtown and inner suburbs, but for outer suburbs, they use legitimate suburban rail lines. Even Beijing is starting to do this (Beijing Suburban Railway Line 2)! And to be honest because Shanghai's city planners are stupid enough to combine suburban rail and subway, its system of 970 km should be compared to other city's subway PLUS suburban rail, in which case you realize Shanghai's rail network is pitifully small. For example, New York has around 3000 km of route length (where four tracks servicing the same route is only counted once as oppose to four) when you combine the subway and its three suburban rail systems. Tokyo has well over 2000 km.

As a native Shanghainese, I am very disappointed to see my home city's metro being butchered by inept planners. Alas, there's nothing any ordinary forumer like us can do.
Very well said!

There's some enormous planning mistakes coming out of China in its rush to the 'biggest' and 'best'.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 04:33 AM   #1092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
Which lines have three track configuration?
various stops on line 9 in the western part of shanghai. guilin rd; zhongcun rd. etc. and some stops on line 8 in Yangpu district.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 05:22 AM   #1093
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Very well said!

There's some enormous planning mistakes coming out of China in its rush to the 'biggest' and 'best'.
^let's not take drunkenmonkey seriously. to rag on and on about a need for new york-esque express suburban service just doesn't make sense. he (and the ones who parrot his sentiments) does not realize that comprehensive yet often disappointing suburban services in many/most places occur because of dysfunctionally LOW suburban densities sprawling into the distance.

you want high minimum levels of density! that minimizes the built urban area and makes public transport efficient. the folks who don't get this axiom are just... out there. the higher densities, along with an aversion to car-based infrastructure and continued PT investment will result in a functional system.

i repeat, NO urban planner is stupid enough to not plan for suburban stops along the various intercity railways, especially in any rail-based transport system. that's so stupid, it's never been attempted before.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 01:01 PM   #1094
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Have you looked at how long some of these lines are going to be? It is inefficient to have a metro serve all of those areas, high density or not.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 03:20 PM   #1095
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I'm pretty sure the Shanghai transit planners (consulting some of the best in the world, including those from MTR HK) knows what they're doing. The vast metro network we see in these "future-plans" is merely the backbone of Shanghai's transit system.
LRT/tram lines are already being constructed as tests on the fringes of the urban area, and we'll surely see some kind of express-like system in the future, however far different than the express lines of the NYC Subway (as has been mentioned - Shanghai is hyperdense throughout the urban area and not in a small island in the middle like NYC).

Why do people think that the Shanghai transit network will stop developing after ~2020 (which is when the furthest "future-plans" go)? Give them time- after all Shanghai is finishing some 2-3 new metro lines every year at the moment, it's nearly impossible to work faster than that. What we see now is merely the beginning of what will be the most massive and efficient transit system on the planet in the future. Trust me.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 05:51 PM   #1096
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i dont think any city in the world is developing as fast as Shanghai its amazing! give shanghai 5 years and it will be right at the top if its not already there that is
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Old February 12th, 2009, 06:13 PM   #1097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by napkcirtap
various stops on line 9 in the western part of shanghai. guilin rd; zhongcun rd. etc. and some stops on line 8 in Yangpu district.
Are the third tracks used for anything right now? What is the configuration of the platforms?
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Old February 12th, 2009, 06:29 PM   #1098
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Are the third tracks used for anything right now? What is the configuration of the platforms?
side platforms, with the third track being in the middle. but these are not consecutive stops, i don't know the exact purpose of the third track. maybe we will get this semi express/ skip-stop service in the future. or maybe this is just used to relay trains.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 06:38 PM   #1099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez
you want high minimum levels of density! that minimizes the built urban area and makes public transport efficient. the folks who don't get this axiom are just... out there. the higher densities, along with an aversion to car-based infrastructure and continued PT investment will result in a functional system.
I think you are confusing the question... Nobody is disputing this, but the issue isn't about density, it's about travel time. Offering express or limited-stop service is about giving people the option to reach a larger number of places within the same amount of time. Let's say the average passenger's "limit" for travel is 45 minutes. You can have trains running every 2 minutes, but if they're all local trains, you can only get so far, maybe from one end of the one of those extended lines to the CBD. Now start building passing tracks at key stations and tweaking the schedules so you can start running limited-stop trains... In the same 45 minutes, you might be able to get somewhere on the other end of the line, or have time to transfer to other lines to reach other places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by particlez
i repeat, NO urban planner is stupid enough to not plan for suburban stops along the various intercity railways, especially in any rail-based transport system. that's so stupid, it's never been attempted before.
Is there a map of these services anywhere? Maybe overlayed with the metro network?
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Old February 12th, 2009, 08:48 PM   #1100
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Quote:
Have you looked at how long some of these lines are going to be? It is inefficient to have a metro serve all of those areas, high density or not.
i'm assuming you've never ridden the system. you should at least get a scale map, and compare the shanghai subway with the subways of similarly large cities. those supposedly long shanghai route distances do not come close to the distances of london's central, piccadily, northern, etc. lines. would shanghai benefit from a 4-track express system? yes, but so would most every other large city. at the same time, a new york style express system isn't practical on a cost-benefit basis. very few people will ride the entire line lengths anyway, as the CBD is located in the center.

the key ISN'T simply just the aggregate rail length. cities need to have compact footprints and correspondingly high densities to make rail based transit work.

drunkenmonkey has an obsession with four-line tracks, which are fine and good, but have only been made possible due to manhattan's very strange geography.
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