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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:53 AM   #1241
particlez
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wow... leave it to the online realm to have nct show the light! praise urban sprawl!

central paris has 8-lane arteries. central shanghai has them. the aggregate length of these arteries isn't long, as the high density, and PT infrastructure of the city allows it to escape from the worst of sprawl. thus, even though a few wide arteries exist, the distance driven per capita remains low. furthermore, a disproportionate number of the vehicles operating in both central paris and shanghai are driven for utilitarian purposes, e.g. buses, delivery vehicles, etc.

now conversely, your "enlightened" 2-lane byways in suburban london or whatever craptacular glorified suburb may LOOK less threatening. but the average mileage per capita amongst suburbanites is several times as high as their urban counterparts.

your 'argument' has often been used by developers and their sales agents to peddle bucolic-LOOKING suburban developments to gullible buyers. the people love the aesthetics of these places, but they overlook the increased distance to the core, the diminished amenities within walking distance, and the compromised efficiency of public transit. these are FACTS.

now i could call you a shill for the development industry. or i could call you genuinely stupid. either way, the things you're advocating will only serve to damage the greater good.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:22 AM   #1242
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wow... leave it to the online realm to have nct show the light! praise urban sprawl!

central paris has 8-lane arteries. central shanghai has them. the aggregate length of these arteries isn't long, as the high density, and PT infrastructure of the city allows it to escape from the worst of sprawl. thus, even though a few wide arteries exist, the distance driven per capita remains low. furthermore, a disproportionate number of the vehicles operating in both central paris and shanghai are driven for utilitarian purposes, e.g. buses, delivery vehicles, etc.

now conversely, your "enlightened" 2-lane byways in suburban london or whatever craptacular glorified suburb may LOOK less threatening. but the average mileage per capita amongst suburbanites is several times as high as their urban counterparts.

your 'argument' has often been used by developers and their sales agents to peddle bucolic-LOOKING suburban developments to gullible buyers. the people love the aesthetics of these places, but they overlook the increased distance to the core, the diminished amenities within walking distance, and the compromised efficiency of public transit. these are FACTS.

now i could call you a shill for the development industry. or i could call you genuinely stupid. either way, the things you're advocating will only serve to damage the greater good.
Wow Greater good you are talking about now...

You are still talking about suburbs as though I want to copy them to Shanghai in its exact form - now I have never suggested that in the first place, and have denied your assertion more than once. I even suggested that perhaps Tokyo would do better with Xincun-style flats so they could have slightly more efficient land use with more green space.

The word suburb itself does NOT mean one with just houses, it's just an urban development (urb) situated a little way out (sub) - duh! What I'm advocating is like having a few Yuepu's dotted around the outer areas and having them connected by rail.

There's slightly greater distance, but no more than 5 or 10 minutes on the train. For that price you have more space and more greenery, and this 5 or 10 minutes through a woods on a train is actually good for the mental health. This is called trading, a concept you seem to fail to grasp time and again.

You still have your local amenities and local buses, a population of about 100 000 will support it no problem. The local structure doesn't need to be changed AT ALL, it's just inserting bits of green here and there between towns, imagine having a green belt running through Xinzhuang and Qibao - will that jeopardise these 2 towns in any way? Not in the slightest.

8-lane roads in the highly urbanised central Shanghai is quite appropriate - I agree with that (although I'd actually say that with more metro lines opening in the near future and better bus lane and bus lane management we can have no more than 6 in most cases. And in fact, compared to London roads, there are much more cars than buses on Shanghai's Roads. Goods vehicles are actually banned from the streets.). What I'm talking about is those giant roads in the countryside - now that's shouting for people to use their cars. They may be free of any traffic now but once those new towns are built you'll see an entirely different story.

Nobody has even attempted to address my point that we built our motorways before our railways, and we've got disproportionately more motorways than railways. Now who's advocating private transport here?!

Hard feelings aside, I seem to agree with much of you are saying, yet you seem determined to twist my arguments so you can argue against me. One learns something about humanity every day eh?

Last edited by NCT; August 18th, 2009 at 01:23 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:32 AM   #1243
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They have more railway lines than motorway/major artery roads, and we have the complete and utter opposite.

Shanghai as a future global centre will have more jobs than the housing it can accommodate within a small urban radius - it has no choice but to reach out. Yes businesses don't all have to crowd in the centre, they can locate in satellite towns. These businesses will need to communicate at all levels, physically and virtually.

Accountants, consultants, inspectors will need to travel around an awful lot between many different locations. How will they travel most efficiently? By mass public transit. There will be more jobs of a part-time nature, and provisions MUST be made for those who travel in on odd days but mostly work from home.

If you think most people can choose to work locally then you live in cloud cuckoo land. People will need to travel and the train (whatever the operator, city or national) offers the best choice.

How is it that some people using cars to commute makes it insignificant that trains are in operation?

How do you explain that the demand is not there when you have bus wars and bus jams on and between the many high-frequency super-distance bus routes that go out to towns like Chuansha, Songjiang, Jiading and Nanhui? And do the passengers suddenly appear from the bus station? A lot of them come from smaller towns and villages further afield, and many of them have to suffer journeys of up to 3 hours - yet you suggest that an 2-hour train-journey is so unbarable!

The level of development of a place is determined by how much choice the people have.
But they have far more per capita automobiles and far more roads than railroads.

Even for Britain it is impossible to extend the railroad to every villages and settlements.

I don't know about other localities, but the bus service to Chuansha and Jiading is not very frequent and the ridership is not very high even at the peak time, comparing with the downtown. The congestion is caused by the cargo trucks, not by buses. I use the service, I know it. And Chuansha and Jiading's old towns are set to be connected by Line 2 and Line 11 within months.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:56 AM   #1244
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Nobody has even attempted to address my point that we built our motorways before our railways, and we've got disproportionately more motorways than railways. Now who's advocating private transport here?!
you do realize london, new york, and paris had their subways built BEFORE the age of the car! when shanghai began its modern day development, technology had changed to the point where motorized vehicles had become commonplace.

we build roads before subways because roads have more flexibility to move people and goods. subways are built afterwards when a critical mass of commuters forms. it's in the textbooks. hell, it was even in simcity.

it's difficult to imagine ANY large modern metropolis without a requisite length of high capacity road. unless of course, you go back to using horse drawn trams and carriages...

now do you realize why no one bothered to address your question?
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Old August 18th, 2009, 02:20 AM   #1245
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But they have far more per capita automobiles and far more roads than railroads.
Have a fair comparison. Compare railways and major A roads (those coloured green on BritishBus maps) and Motorways, both of which serve commuter and longer distance traffic - there are more railway lines than comparable major roads.

Lets start from Darford going clockwise:

Roads:
A2, A20, A21, A22, A23, A217, A24, A243
A3, M3, M4, M40, A413, A41
M1, A1(M), A10, A11, A12, A127, A13
A total of 21;

Railways:
North Kent Line, Chatham Main Line, Swanley to Ashford Line, Southeastern Main Line,
Oxted Line, Caterham Line, Brighton Main Line, Tattenham Corner Line,
Motspur Park Branches, Guildford Lines, Chertsey Branch, Waterloo to Reading Line,
Great Western Main Line, Chiltern Main Line, London to Aylesbury Line, West Coast Main Line, Abbey Line, Midland Main Line, East Coast Main Line, Hertford Loop Line, Lee Valley Lines (3),
Central Line (Epping), Great Eastern Main Laine, London, Tilbury and Southend Lines
Without counting the plurals we've got 24. Do the maths.

These are all lines extending out of the M25. Now I challenge you to do the comparison for Shanghai in 2020.

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Even for Britain it is impossible to extend the railroad to every villages and settlements.
Did I ever say this needs to happen to Shanghai?

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I don't know about other localities, but the bus service to Chuansha and Jiading is not very frequent and the ridership is not very high even at the peak time, comparing with the downtown. The congestion is caused by the cargo trucks, not by buses. I use the service, I know it. And Chuansha and Jiading's old towns are set to be connected by Line 2 and Line 11 within months.
ShenChuan, ShangChuan, FangChuan, XuChuan, ChuanHong (can't remember the 99x number) are all at turn-up-and-go frequencies. At this rate Line 2 will be pretty well patronised from Chuansha. You are actually proving MY point about commuter rail being necessary. What do you think the line 20 and 21 into QingPu and LinGang are for? They are to extend the sphere of influence of central Shanghai. All I'm asking now is a little foresight so that in the not-too distance future such coverage can become more universal, and also that convenience and compatibility be taken into account.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 02:23 AM   #1246
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you do realize london, new york, and paris had their subways built BEFORE the age of the car! when shanghai began its modern day development, technology had changed to the point where motorized vehicles had become commonplace.

we build roads before subways because roads have more flexibility to move people and goods. subways are built afterwards when a critical mass of commuters forms. it's in the textbooks. hell, it was even in simcity.

it's difficult to imagine ANY large modern metropolis without a requisite length of high capacity road. unless of course, you go back to using horse drawn trams and carriages...

now do you realize why no one bothered to address your question?
You talk about effiency yet when it comes to the crucial question about transport you bow down to cars. Now only a little bit of planning can make sure public transport can take precedence. I think we are agreed that public transport is the way forward, then we need to find and acknowledge ways to make this happen.

The timing isn't the point. People now DO own cars yet they STILL use the railways, in fact a good majority do, for you wouldn't even want to drive for 2 hours into London - much less stress and quicker to take a nap on the train!
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Old August 18th, 2009, 02:29 AM   #1247
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^sweet lord. i didn't say cars would be banned.

why do you twist your words around? you listed LONDON as an example of a place which built its subways first, whereas shanghai concentrated on its road transport, thus its commitment to public transport is weak. that claim is so spurious, it's hard not to laugh.

if london were developed in the present day, would it really have built its subway network before its highways?

let me finish some work. if/when i have time, i'd want to go over some of your other disingenuous/ignorant comments. it should take a while to compile.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 11:28 AM   #1248
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I think Shanghai could be a little more dense, especially in southern Pudong. The problem is that they need to stop building commie block complexes 小區. I think these are the biggest enemy to urban development in China. It seems the trend in China is to have everything sectioned off from everything. IE housing comples, office complex, entertainment/shoppin complex. There is very little new development where there is just a street and a building. All these complexes make walking around miserable and inefficent. When walking is in-efficent roadways and public transportation gets clogged. Look at the area around Shanghai circus world subway 上海馬戲城. The only thing on the road is walls belonging to sectioned off housing, office, or light industrial complexes. You could't pay me to live out there.

I see Shanghai slowly becoming like Beijing. The problem is that Beijing is a total shithole, an unrepairable urban planning nightmere. Urban Planning students should all have a mandatory trip to Beijing to see how not to plan a city. But it seems that the government likes this low density, spread out, walled off, sectioned complex. It looks better from an airplane, and on the drawing board, but to a person on a street it is miserable. Beijing needs to emulate Shanghai, and Shanghai needs to build high density like Huangpu district. Huangpu district is Shanghai's best district because it has narrow streets, high rises, no sectioned off complexes (yet), few trees, and a good mix of residential, office, and retail.

As for the Shanghai Metro. I am a big fan (probably because I used to live in Beijing and deal with that poor excuse for a subway) Other than the fact that line 7 will cross line 10 without a transfer station, and that line 8 crosses line 4 without a transfer, I think SH has done a wonderful job planning the metro. I cannot wait until they can open up more lines!
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Old August 18th, 2009, 11:59 AM   #1249
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I think Shanghai could be a little more dense, especially in southern Pudong. The problem is that they need to stop building commie block complexes 小區. I think these are the biggest enemy to urban development in China. It seems the trend in China is to have everything sectioned off from everything. IE housing comples, office complex, entertainment/shoppin complex. There is very little new development where there is just a street and a building. All these complexes make walking around miserable and inefficent. When walking is in-efficent roadways and public transportation gets clogged. Look at the area around Shanghai circus world subway 上海馬戲城. The only thing on the road is walls belonging to sectioned off housing, office, or light industrial complexes. You could't pay me to live out there.
Indeed. In order to keep walking efficient, shops should be scattered around residential areas - first storey shops, upper storeys apartments, or a department shop as one multistorey house among multistorey homes and offices.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:00 PM   #1250
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^sweet lord. i didn't say cars would be banned.
Nowhere in the thread have I ever suggested that this was your stance. In fact you actually condoned the use of private cars before public transport.

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why do you twist your words around? you listed LONDON as an example of a place which built its subways first, whereas shanghai concentrated on its road transport, thus its commitment to public transport is weak. that claim is so spurious, it's hard not to laugh.
Well actually I am laughing. Motorways are mainly used for private transport, and railways are one of the best forms of public transport. As far as long distance transport is concerned, there are duplicate motorways (Huning, Yanjiang, Suhu etc) yet there are still only 2 mainline railways. Where was effort directed at first? Oh yeah private transport. Spurious, hardly!

I appreciate the upgrade work going on the Huning and Huhang lines, and also the Jinshan Branch, but, just as everything the TDB (Railway Authority) does, too little, too late. Having said that, on Shanghai's part, the efforts put in on the metro lines have, on the whole, been remarkable.

Extend the argument to buses. Are there loads of bus lanes? No, and where there are, it's the cycle lanes that sacrifice, not normal traffic lanes. Are bus stops situated at road junctions and hubs? No, they are a long way out so to give way to private transport. Now tell me commitment to public transport is strong!

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if london were developed in the present day, would it really have built its subway network before its highways?
The hard truth is that they invented the railway before the motor car - public transport before private transport.

In the 60s and 70s they thought that with car ownership on the rise the way forward was to build miles and miles of motorways and to abandon the railways. How wrong they have been - the more motorways that were built the worse congestion became. Now they've woken up to the fact that actually public transport is the way forward. Now they are investing heavily into the railway infrastructure, that's why you see engineering works taking place every weekend, to do the work that should have been done 30 years ago. On top of that their bus priority is to be admired - they actively discourage excess use of the private car by various traffic calming measures - they deliberately narrow the roads or make them bendy, whereas the new roads we are building are insufferably wide and straight.

Quote:
let me finish some work. if/when i have time, i'd want to go over some of your other disingenuous/ignorant comments. it should take a while to compile.
How I look forward to that. Oh when you are not in such a hurry DO remember to start your sentences with CAPITALS!
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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:03 PM   #1251
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I think Shanghai could be a little more dense, especially in southern Pudong. The problem is that they need to stop building commie block complexes 小區. I think these are the biggest enemy to urban development in China. It seems the trend in China is to have everything sectioned off from everything. IE housing comples, office complex, entertainment/shoppin complex. There is very little new development where there is just a street and a building. All these complexes make walking around miserable and inefficent. When walking is in-efficent roadways and public transportation gets clogged. Look at the area around Shanghai circus world subway 上海馬戲城. The only thing on the road is walls belonging to sectioned off housing, office, or light industrial complexes. You could't pay me to live out there.

I see Shanghai slowly becoming like Beijing. The problem is that Beijing is a total shithole, an unrepairable urban planning nightmere. Urban Planning students should all have a mandatory trip to Beijing to see how not to plan a city. But it seems that the government likes this low density, spread out, walled off, sectioned complex. It looks better from an airplane, and on the drawing board, but to a person on a street it is miserable. Beijing needs to emulate Shanghai, and Shanghai needs to build high density like Huangpu district. Huangpu district is Shanghai's best district because it has narrow streets, high rises, no sectioned off complexes (yet), few trees, and a good mix of residential, office, and retail.

As for the Shanghai Metro. I am a big fan (probably because I used to live in Beijing and deal with that poor excuse for a subway) Other than the fact that line 7 will cross line 10 without a transfer station, and that line 8 crosses line 4 without a transfer, I think SH has done a wonderful job planning the metro. I cannot wait until they can open up more lines!
How indeed.

Roads are now sparcer and wider, so catching the bus involves a long walk onto the road and risking one's life crossing the road. So what's more convenient? You got it - getting your car out!
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:49 PM   #1252
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Originally Posted by Severiano View Post
As for the Shanghai Metro. I am a big fan (probably because I used to live in Beijing and deal with that poor excuse for a subway) Other than the fact that line 7 will cross line 10 without a transfer station, and that line 8 crosses line 4 without a transfer, I think SH has done a wonderful job planning the metro. I cannot wait until they can open up more lines!
Line 8 and 4 interchange at South Xizang Road (西藏南路), though I suppose this is inconvenient if you're trying to interchange at the north side of the line 4 ring. I'm not sure why there isn't an interchange on the north end of the ring at Baoshan Road. But you are right - the Shanghai Metro seems much better planned than the Beijing Subway. The only thing that I wish Shanghai would take from Beijing is the 2RMB fare for the entire network!
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Old August 18th, 2009, 02:06 PM   #1253
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Line 8 and 4 interchange at South Xizang Road (西藏南路), though I suppose this is inconvenient if you're trying to interchange at the north side of the line 4 ring. I'm not sure why there isn't an interchange on the north end of the ring at Baoshan Road.
There is main-line railway on the south side and Xizang Road tunnel underneath. Both the physical and policy aspects make it very difficult for there to be a station.

This actually is a pain. If the line 3 ends up terminating at Shanghai Station, then those coming from line 8 are not going to be able to access the circle line easily.

Quote:
But you are right - the Shanghai Metro seems much better planned than the Beijing Subway. The only thing that I wish Shanghai would take from Beijing is the 2RMB fare for the entire network!
Hmmm, the way public finances work in China means that such a fare structure wouldn't be realistic in Shanghai. In Short, Beijing is a net consumer of public finances, whereas Shanghai is a net contributor.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 04:16 PM   #1254
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Have a fair comparison. Compare railways and major A roads (those coloured green on BritishBus maps) and Motorways, both of which serve commuter and longer distance traffic - there are more railway lines than comparable major roads.

Lets start from Darford going clockwise:

Roads:
A2, A20, A21, A22, A23, A217, A24, A243
A3, M3, M4, M40, A413, A41
M1, A1(M), A10, A11, A12, A127, A13
A total of 21;

Railways:
North Kent Line, Chatham Main Line, Swanley to Ashford Line, Southeastern Main Line,
Oxted Line, Caterham Line, Brighton Main Line, Tattenham Corner Line,
Motspur Park Branches, Guildford Lines, Chertsey Branch, Waterloo to Reading Line,
Great Western Main Line, Chiltern Main Line, London to Aylesbury Line, West Coast Main Line, Abbey Line, Midland Main Line, East Coast Main Line, Hertford Loop Line, Lee Valley Lines (3),
Central Line (Epping), Great Eastern Main Laine, London, Tilbury and Southend Lines
Without counting the plurals we've got 24. Do the maths.

These are all lines extending out of the M25. Now I challenge you to do the comparison for Shanghai in 2020.
Cars not only use motorways. They use all roads! The road density is hundred times denser than rail!
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Old August 18th, 2009, 06:07 PM   #1255
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Cars not only use motorways. They use all roads! The road density is hundred times denser than rail!
Try getting into London from the home counties on any of the minor roads - trust me you'll lose the will to live!

The only exceptions I can think of are Epping, Potter's Bar, Radlett (and perhaps St. Albans), Rickmansworth, Woking and Biggin hill that can get into London semi-easily on a red or yellow road. All of them bar Biggin Hill have convenient and frequent rail services into London.

Roads are classified for a reason - different roads serve different purposes. Local roads are called local roads because they are local roads! They carry traffic of an entirely different nature so it is not fair to include them in the equation. Go on Google maps and see exactly how many major arteries there actually are - not that many you'll find!

The whole point about this debate is whether commuter rail is necessary and whether London's system is a good example. One 8-car train carries about 500 people (without crush-loading), and that's about 400 cars. so one railway line is as significant as quite a few roads.

Last edited by NCT; August 18th, 2009 at 06:17 PM.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:24 PM   #1256
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Line 8 and 4 interchange at South Xizang Road (西藏南路), though I suppose this is inconvenient if you're trying to interchange at the north side of the line 4 ring. I'm not sure why there isn't an interchange on the north end of the ring at Baoshan Road. But you are right - the Shanghai Metro seems much better planned than the Beijing Subway. The only thing that I wish Shanghai would take from Beijing is the 2RMB fare for the entire network!
I looked at the city map today. If line 8 and line 3/4 were to have a north transfer station, it would be at Tianmu East road 天目東路 and 西藏北路 which would put it way to close to the Qufu road (曲阜路) station. Oh well, maybe they can do one of those 30 min exit the station transfers.

As far as the fare difference between Shanghai and Beijing all I can say is 一分錢一分貨.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:29 PM   #1257
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Could you please use simplified characters instead of traditional ones? I suspect 99% of Chinese readers here prefer simplified ones.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 05:22 AM   #1258
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No.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 05:54 AM   #1259
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Okay, thanks for the cooperation.. What are you, 5 years old?
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Old August 19th, 2009, 06:05 AM   #1260
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No.
Why not? Most of us don't know traditional characters very well, if at all. And being that this is a Shanghai thread, it would make sense to use simplified characters, considering that they are the official characters in use in Shanghai and in all of mainland China.
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