daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 14th, 2010, 01:31 PM   #1441
Ashis Mitra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 1138

This is a very good thread, thanks –

I Live in Kolkata (old name was Calcutta), and my city is running electric tram since 1902, which is Asia’s oldest operating electric tram, & metro since 1984, which is India’s first metro.

Shanghai has some similarities with Kolkata. Both cities has tram & metro. The main difference is that Kolkata is running electric tram continuously, struggling with periodical threats of closure, but Shanghai was closed its electric tram in 1975.

Thanks to transport authority. They at last returned tram in Shanghai in 2010, after long 35 years. The new rubber tired tram is no-doubt a proud of Asia. Long live Shanghai Tram. We can say proudly now to the world – “We, the Asians have also two rubber tired tram system, in Tianjin & Shanghai

Mainly for these reasons, I’m very much interested about Shanghai’s tram & metro. So I’ve some suggestions/requests/questions. Please answer me one by one -

1) This thread does not have any information about previously closed trams before 1975. Please add some information about the previous system, English links, photos etc.
2) Please publish a full prominent map of pre 1975 Shanghai tram at their full fledge indicating details about every closed routes.
3) Is there any remaining present of the previous tram system in Shanghai, which was closed in 1975?
4) Can anybody write which year previous system’s tram routes were opened & closed? Write routes year by year.
5) Is there any route planned for the new system? If yes, please write details.
6) Are there any common alignments between past & present tram network? If yes, write details.
7) Is there any official/unofficial English website of Shanghai’s present & past tram system?
8) When the construction of subway started, were the tram tracks (closed in 1975) discovered under the asphalt in the time of digging?

Please reply me as soon as possible.

http://lrta.info/news/news0533.html - this link says that eight new tram lines totaling some 389km are to be constructed in the booming city of Shanghai. Does it means rubber tired tram like present system? Or steel wheeled general tram system? Please write details about this.
Ashis Mitra no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 14th, 2010, 01:44 PM   #1442
Ashis Mitra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 1138

Seoul has extended 4 metro lines at one time some years early. I think, that was the largest metro expansion of the world.

From Chinese wikipedia & some other websites, I knew that line 1 to 4, line 7 to 9 & 11 are really metro/subway, but line 5 & 6 are elevated/underground light rail. So in future I think we should consider line 5 & 6. So Shanghai has actually 8 metro lines – 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 11.

Like line 5, line 6 is also lrt. Line 5 is elevated light rail & line 6 is underground light rail (source – Chinese Wikipedia). Light Rail & Metro are different . Light rail is between tram & metro.

Now there are 8 metro lines – 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9 & 11 (5 & 6 are light rail). Excluding light rail, total length is 289 Km., although smaller than Tokyo, not bad. It is largest in China. Line 10 will be opened in 2010.

At last, I've 4 questions - please reply-

1) Can there be an English map for international readers showing all future 22 lines?
2) Will this include light rails also like line 5 & 6? If yes, then please mentions which lines should be like line 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 11 type metro and/or like line 5 & 6 type light rail?
3) Line 1, 2, 9 & 11 will be called as regional train i.e. suburban train, but these are metro lines. Will these be converted from metro to suburban train in future (just opposite trend of Cairo, Valparaiso)?
4) Line 5 will be called as extension of line 1, so both as suburban train. But line 1 is metro & line 5 is elevated light rail. Will both to be converted to suburban train?

If yes, it will be unique in world. Many cities in world converted suburban train line(s) to metro line(s), whereas Shanghai is going to opposite direction. So in future the metro network will be largely shorten.
Ashis Mitra no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2010, 03:47 PM   #1443
Falubaz
Registered User
 
Falubaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Zielona Gora, Polska
Posts: 14,799
Likes (Received): 2940

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
From Chinese wikipedia & some other websites, I knew that line 1 to 4, line 7 to 9 & 11 are really metro/subway, but line 5 & 6 are elevated/underground light rail. So in future I think we should consider line 5 & 6. So Shanghai has actually 8 metro lines – 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 11.

Like line 5, line 6 is also lrt. Line 5 is elevated light rail & line 6 is underground light rail (source – Chinese Wikipedia). Light Rail & Metro are different . Light rail is between tram & metro.
I think, those are just definitions... or even just tries to find any kind of typology. U r right about lines 5 and 6 being different, but it's just the capacity of the trains. Both lines are fully indipendend from other transportation means hence are full metro lines. In Shanghai they have heavy metro trains and light metro trains, but no light railways (unless translohr could be colled as one).
Many wolrd's metro systems have similar trains as line 5 and 6 in SHA, but no one call them lrt! (i.e. London, Berlin, Budapest)

Quote:
At last, I've 4 questions - please reply-

1) Can there be an English map for international readers showing all future 22 lines?
What u mean 'english map'? r u refering probably to the "latin alphabet map"?
Because there isnt such thing like english alphabet. It's latin.


Quote:
If yes, it will be unique in world. Many cities in world converted suburban train line(s) to metro line(s), whereas Shanghai is going to opposite direction. So in future the metro network will be largely shorten.
Again, it's just naming. The network will be more extensive. Just different names for lines going to the far suburbs. Folowing ur logic, we should call londons metropolitan or district lines not metro but suburban lines and cut in half the london network lenght.
__________________
Zielona Góra - Ziemia Lubuska

₪₪₪Zielona Góra moim okiem₪₪₪ Zielonogórskie autobusy₪₪₪Port Lotniczy ZIElona Góra₪₪₪ BRT₪₪₪ścieżki rowerowe w ZG
₪₪₪[Świat] „Przebłyski pamięci”₪₪₪Moja Ameryka - nie tylko Stany
Falubaz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2010, 07:52 PM   #1444
BarbaricManchurian
来了就是深圳人
 
BarbaricManchurian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Worcester
Posts: 5,502
Likes (Received): 6892

check wikipedia
BarbaricManchurian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #1445
Falubaz
Registered User
 
Falubaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Zielona Gora, Polska
Posts: 14,799
Likes (Received): 2940

Since when wikipedia is the Bible for any sort of info?

@Ashis Mitra
A crapy map with extensions and with latin names is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sh...metro_2020.svg
but since its just wikipedia, it's not sure, if this map is accurate to the facts...

As for metro vs. light rail u had asked here about that almost a year ago (post no. 211 is the answer you got).
__________________
Zielona Góra - Ziemia Lubuska

₪₪₪Zielona Góra moim okiem₪₪₪ Zielonogórskie autobusy₪₪₪Port Lotniczy ZIElona Góra₪₪₪ BRT₪₪₪ścieżki rowerowe w ZG
₪₪₪[Świat] „Przebłyski pamięci”₪₪₪Moja Ameryka - nie tylko Stany

Last edited by Falubaz; February 14th, 2010 at 08:36 PM. Reason: adding link
Falubaz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2010, 08:53 PM   #1446
BarbaricManchurian
来了就是深圳人
 
BarbaricManchurian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Worcester
Posts: 5,502
Likes (Received): 6892

Wikipedia is almost always correct, for example, the Shanghai Metro map in question is completely correct, just maybe not "clean" enough
BarbaricManchurian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2010, 10:14 AM   #1447
ode of bund
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Shanghai-Edmonton, Places where ETBs are molested.
Posts: 228
Likes (Received): 70

This is a very good thread, thanks –

I Live in Kolkata (old name was Calcutta), and my city is running electric tram since 1902, which is Asia’s oldest operating electric tram, & metro since 1984, which is India’s first metro.

Shanghai has some similarities with Kolkata. Both cities has tram & metro. The main difference is that Kolkata is running electric tram continuously, struggling with periodical threats of closure, but Shanghai was closed its electric tram in 1975.

We might have closed the tram system in 1975, but we still have an extensive trolley-bus network in operation today. In fact Shanghai's trolley-bus network is the longest continuously operated trolley-bus system in the world today. The very first trolley-bus route, route 14, born on November 15th, 1914, is still operating at this very moment. All tram lines were later converted to trolley-bus operation. At one time, towards the end of 1980s and early 1990s, Shanghai had the largest trolley-bus network in Asia with more 300km of overhead, 961 trolley coaches, exclusively articulated, and 22 route. The privatization of transit system in the mid 1990s strike hard on trolley-bus system, in which the lack of interest from transit operators, the obsolete infrasture, and archaic vehicle technology, combined with the misconception that trolley overhead is visual pollution, had forced the conversion of many routes into diesel bus operation.


Mainly for these reasons, I’m very much interested about Shanghai’s tram & metro. So I’ve some suggestions/requests/questions. Please answer me one by one -

1) This thread does not have any information about previously closed trams before 1975. Please add some information about the previous system, English links, photos etc.

The first tram started revenue operation on Shanghai's most bustling commercial street, Nanjing Road (or Nanking as some literature refers to) on March 5th, 1908, and continued to operate for 55 years until August 14th, 1963. The following morning at 4:15am, brand new trolley-buses built by the then Shanghai Coach Plant, the predecessor of today's Shanghai Sunwin Bus and Coach Corporation, started revenue service on the replacement route, route 20, and continued to do so today. This very first tram was also the longest continuously operated tram in Shanghai as it was also the last tram to be withdrawn from downtown Shanghai, between 1963 and 1975, trams were only operated on a solo route on the fringe of the city. That single tram route, route 3, was converted to bus route 93 in 1975, and then converted to trolley-bus route 9 in 1983. It was reconverted back to bus operation in 1993 during the construction of Shanghai's Inner Ring Via-duct, and since the number 93 was already used else, the replacement bus route got a new number, 139.

Before 1946, there were 3 different tram operators, the British Electric in the British Concession, the French Electric in the French Concession, and China Merchant in the old fortrefied quarter.
ode of bund no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2010, 02:04 PM   #1448
greg_christine
Registered User
 
greg_christine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Smithfield, VA
Posts: 1,008
Likes (Received): 142

In this thread, there has been some speculation on the relative cost of light rail and Translohr. A cost comparison was performed for the Coquitlam/Evergreen Line in Vancouver. The report is “Northeast Sector Rapid Transit Alternatives Project, Phase 2 - Evaluation of Rapid Transit Alternatives, Final Technical Report” prepared for the Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority. For the chosen northwest corridor route, the report compared SkyTrain (automated trains operating on an elevated viaduct), light rail, and Guided Light Transit (Bombardier’s GLT system or Translohr). According to the report, GLT would be cheaper to operate as LRT and less then half the cost to build.

A major cost difference between the systems is that, “SkyTrain and LRT require a 2 km tunnel to bypass the 12% grade on Clarke Road Hill, while the rubber-tired GLT, although slower,” is able to negotiate this grade”. A bit over $80 M of the cost difference between the systems is attributable to the tunnel required for SkyTrain and LRT. The ability to mount grades of up to 13% is one of the primary selling points of the Translohr system. The usual design limit for new LRT systems is around 6% though there are existing lines that are steeper.

The following are some numbers from the report.

Operating Cost per Vehicle-Hour - Table 3.6
SkyTrain: $150 - $170
LRT: $150 - $200
GLT: $110 - $140

Operating Cost per Passenger Capacity - KM - Table 3.6
SkyTrain: $0.025 - $0.035
LRT: $0.03 - $0.04
GLT: $0.04 - $0.05

Maximum Acheivable Speed - Table 5.1
SkyTrain: 80 km/h
LRT: 90 km/h
GLT: 70 km/h

Travel Time from Lougheed Station to Coquitlam City Hall - Table 5.2
SkyTrain: 13 min.
LRT: 21 min.
GLT: 23 min.

Peak Directional Passenger Demand for 2021 - Table 7.1.1
SkyTrain: 5900
LRT: 2600
GLT: 2200

Annual Operating Costs - Table 7.3.3
SkyTrain: $13.8 M
LRT: $10.6 M
GLT: $9.4 M

Capital Costs - Table 8.1.1
SkyTrain: $1097 M
LRT: $834 M
GLT: $414 M

Please note that the report used the term GLT generically to refer to both Bombardier's GLT system and Translohr.
greg_christine no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 03:17 PM   #1449
dmarney
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 442
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Why are you guys discussing the classification? kind o pointless. anyway...

It seems like biggest advantage of this type of transports is regular vehicles can use the same road with the tram/bus. It might be good for relatively short distance routes where rider numbers do not justify a subway but higher than a bus line can handle
This happens with tram lines aswell, so its not really an advantage
dmarney no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 02:55 PM   #1450
Ashis Mitra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 1138

Thanks friends for your helping.

OK, we should call line 5 & 6 are light metro.
Ashis Mitra no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 03:01 PM   #1451
Ashis Mitra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 1138

Quote:
Originally Posted by ode of bund View Post
This is a very good thread, thanks –

I Live in Kolkata (old name was Calcutta), and my city is running electric tram since 1902, which is Asia’s oldest operating electric tram, & metro since 1984, which is India’s first metro.

Shanghai has some similarities with Kolkata. Both cities has tram & metro. The main difference is that Kolkata is running electric tram continuously, struggling with periodical threats of closure, but Shanghai was closed its electric tram in 1975.

We might have closed the tram system in 1975, but we still have an extensive trolley-bus network in operation today. In fact Shanghai's trolley-bus network is the longest continuously operated trolley-bus system in the world today. The very first trolley-bus route, route 14, born on November 15th, 1914, is still operating at this very moment. All tram lines were later converted to trolley-bus operation. At one time, towards the end of 1980s and early 1990s, Shanghai had the largest trolley-bus network in Asia with more 300km of overhead, 961 trolley coaches, exclusively articulated, and 22 route. The privatization of transit system in the mid 1990s strike hard on trolley-bus system, in which the lack of interest from transit operators, the obsolete infrasture, and archaic vehicle technology, combined with the misconception that trolley overhead is visual pollution, had forced the conversion of many routes into diesel bus operation.


Mainly for these reasons, I’m very much interested about Shanghai’s tram & metro. So I’ve some suggestions/requests/questions. Please answer me one by one -

1) This thread does not have any information about previously closed trams before 1975. Please add some information about the previous system, English links, photos etc.

The first tram started revenue operation on Shanghai's most bustling commercial street, Nanjing Road (or Nanking as some literature refers to) on March 5th, 1908, and continued to operate for 55 years until August 14th, 1963. The following morning at 4:15am, brand new trolley-buses built by the then Shanghai Coach Plant, the predecessor of today's Shanghai Sunwin Bus and Coach Corporation, started revenue service on the replacement route, route 20, and continued to do so today. This very first tram was also the longest continuously operated tram in Shanghai as it was also the last tram to be withdrawn from downtown Shanghai, between 1963 and 1975, trams were only operated on a solo route on the fringe of the city. That single tram route, route 3, was converted to bus route 93 in 1975, and then converted to trolley-bus route 9 in 1983. It was reconverted back to bus operation in 1993 during the construction of Shanghai's Inner Ring Via-duct, and since the number 93 was already used else, the replacement bus route got a new number, 139.

Before 1946, there were 3 different tram operators, the British Electric in the British Concession, the French Electric in the French Concession, and China Merchant in the old fortrefied quarter.
Thank you very much for helping me. I'm really greatful to you. But I've still not got answers of the following questions. Please help.

1) Please publish a full prominent map of pre 1975 Shanghai tram at their full fledge indicating details about every closed routes.
2) Is there any remaining present of the previous tram system in Shanghai, which was closed in 1975?
3) Can anybody write which year previous system’s tram routes were opened & closed? Write routes year by year.
4) Is there any route planned for the new system? If yes, please write details.
5) Are there any common alignments between past & present tram network? If yes, write details.
6) Is there any official/unofficial English website of Shanghai’s present & past tram system?
7) When the construction of subway started, were the tram tracks (closed in 1975) discovered under the asphalt in the time of digging?
Ashis Mitra no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2010, 04:05 PM   #1452
P05
Agur eta ohore
 
P05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Tokkie Nederland
Posts: 6,159
Likes (Received): 2271

Quote:
Originally Posted by pearl_river View Post
Is there no mention of when the next lines will open?

The habit of vague opening dates always struck me as disorganized.
Me too

On february 24th, four new stations will be opened on the eastern side of line 2. Another 8 kilometres.
__________________
"Go to school, get a job, get a mortgage... all I'm really doing is dying."
P05 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 24th, 2010, 03:46 PM   #1453
P05
Agur eta ohore
 
P05's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Tokkie Nederland
Posts: 6,159
Likes (Received): 2271

Quote:
Shanghai Metro Line 2 extended to Guanglan Road



The Shanghai Metro continues to expand… today sees the opening of an additional stretch of Line 2. The previous terminal station, Zhangjiang Hi-Tech Park will reopen as a new underground station twice the size of the previous, overcrowded station. The two new stations are located at Jinke Road and Guanglan Road.
http://www.exploremetro.com/blog/sha...-guanglan-road
__________________
"Go to school, get a job, get a mortgage... all I'm really doing is dying."
P05 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2010, 08:16 AM   #1454
pearl_river
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 240
Likes (Received): 1

Shanghai has 355 km now.

London, the largest, has 400 km.

When will it happen?
pearl_river no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2010, 02:45 PM   #1455
The Chemist
Right you are, Ken
 
The Chemist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Shanghai / 上海
Posts: 305
Likes (Received): 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by pearl_river View Post
Shanghai has 355 km now.

London, the largest, has 400 km.

When will it happen?
Before May, when the branch line of Line 11, the whole of Line 10, the rest of Line 2, and the Line 13 stub open. When all of those open track length will reach 420km, the longest system in the world.
__________________
城市,让生活更美好
"He could have been yawning or snarling - the story was never clear..."
My Flickr Photos
The Chemist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2010, 02:46 PM   #1456
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,973
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
Before May, when the branch line of Line 11, the whole of Line 10, the rest of Line 2, and the Line 13 stub open. When all of those open track length will reach 420km, the longest system in the world.
How much of it is subway, compared to other systems?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2010, 08:49 PM   #1457
drunkenmunkey888
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 921
Likes (Received): 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
Before May, when the branch line of Line 11, the whole of Line 10, the rest of Line 2, and the Line 13 stub open. When all of those open track length will reach 420km, the longest system in the world.
That's an unfair comparison IMO because cities like London Tokyo or New York have separate suburban rail systems that reach outer suburbs and their subway systems only serve the central city. These suburban rail networks function much the same way as Shanghai metro Line 1, 2, 9, and 11. Therefore, if Shanghai metro is to be compared, it should be to their subway + suburban rail networks. When you put it that way, Tokyo has over 2,000 km of rail and New York almost 3,000 km of rail.
drunkenmunkey888 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #1458
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
That's an unfair comparison IMO because cities like London Tokyo or New York have separate suburban rail systems that reach outer suburbs and their subway systems only serve the central city. These suburban rail networks function much the same way as Shanghai metro Line 1, 2, 9, and 11. Therefore, if Shanghai metro is to be compared, it should be to their subway + suburban rail networks. When you put it that way, Tokyo has over 2,000 km of rail and New York almost 3,000 km of rail.
These are no metro systems, however. Therefore Shanghai metro will take the lead.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2010, 09:51 PM   #1459
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,204
Likes (Received): 1766

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
These are no metro systems, however. Therefore Shanghai metro will take the lead.
Joe Average doesn't give two monkeys whether their trains are called Metro or Rail, as long as they turn up and take them to where they want to go. Apart from the packaging there's almost no difference between the two, especially in the case of Japan. Separating Metro and Suburban is a purely academic exercise.
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2010, 10:14 PM   #1460
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Joe Average doesn't give two monkeys whether their trains are called Metro or Rail, as long as they turn up and take them to where they want to go. Apart from the packaging there's almost no difference between the two, especially in the case of Japan. Separating Metro and Suburban is a purely academic exercise.
Maybe not in Japan. In London there is a difference which is big enough to be recognized.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
metro, shanghai, tram

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium