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Old February 25th, 2010, 10:45 PM   #1461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Maybe not in Japan. In London there is a difference which is big enough to be recognized.
Tokyo alone makes Shanghai's claim of no.1 farcicle. As for London, the commuter network still offers a regular turn-up-and-go service, which Shanghai hasn't got AT ALL.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 02:35 AM   #1462
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Quote:
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That's an unfair comparison IMO because cities like London Tokyo or New York have separate suburban rail systems that reach outer suburbs and their subway systems only serve the central city. These suburban rail networks function much the same way as Shanghai metro Line 1, 2, 9, and 11. Therefore, if Shanghai metro is to be compared, it should be to their subway + suburban rail networks. When you put it that way, Tokyo has over 2,000 km of rail and New York almost 3,000 km of rail.
Partly disagree. From personal experience, I know that at least a couple of London's underground lines (Picadilly and Northern, at least) behave much like Lines 1, 2, and 9 in Shanghai - underground in the city centre, and above ground with larger distances between stations in the outer suburbs.

Still, it would be nice to see Shanghai develop a suburban rail system on par with London's or Tokyo's at some point in the future.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 04:59 AM   #1463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
Partly disagree. From personal experience, I know that at least a couple of London's underground lines (Picadilly and Northern, at least) behave much like Lines 1, 2, and 9 in Shanghai - underground in the city centre, and above ground with larger distances between stations in the outer suburbs.
Practically all lines in London are like this, bar the Victoria/Circle/H&C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT
As for London, the commuter network still offers a regular turn-up-and-go service, which Shanghai hasn't got AT ALL.
Only on some lines...
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Old February 26th, 2010, 12:13 PM   #1464
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Quote:
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Joe Average doesn't give two monkeys whether their trains are called Metro or Rail, as long as they turn up and take them to where they want to go.
Since when does Joe Average have a say in this? Isn't pretty much any discussion on here on an "transit nerd" level? Why does the opinion of Joe Average suddenly have any value when it comes to length of metro systems? Is the Boeing 747 the world's largest passenger aircraft because most average Joes still think so? Let's keep it real.

In any case, the Shanghai urban rail system only begun being developed in the mid 90s. If anyone think they're simply going to stop developing and extending it by 2020, you're wrong.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #1465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
As for London, the commuter network still offers a regular turn-up-and-go service, which Shanghai hasn't got AT ALL.
4 train-pairs per hour is nowhere the frequency the Underground is offering. And you can hardly call it turn-up-and-go.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 06:48 PM   #1466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
Since when does Joe Average have a say in this? Isn't pretty much any discussion on here on an "transit nerd" level? Why does the opinion of Joe Average suddenly have any value when it comes to length of metro systems? Is the Boeing 747 the world's largest passenger aircraft because most average Joes still think so? Let's keep it real.
Isn't the whole point of building railways to suit the needs of Joe Average? Nothing wrong with nerd-level discussion, but when they have no relevance to real needs then they are quite pointless?

Quote:
In any case, the Shanghai urban rail system only begun being developed in the mid 90s. If anyone think they're simply going to stop developing and extending it by 2020, you're wrong.
I don't think they are going to stop developing, just that at this stage boasting about no.1 is stupid. Fast expansion absolutely, no. 1, for all intents and purposes, no.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 06:56 PM   #1467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
4 train-pairs per hour is nowhere the frequency the Underground is offering. And you can hardly call it turn-up-and-go.
It's borderline I agree, but much closer to Metro than Nothing. Some lines like the GER do have 6tph frequencies, which is comparable to the Rayner's Lane branch of the Picc and the Watford branch of the Met.

Let's also not forget a few of Shanghai's lines are only operating at fairly modest frequencies of 5-6tph, the northern end of Line 3 and the southern end of Line 8 for example, and that's going to remain so for a while as rolling stock is in rather short supply.

All in all the distinctions are only very slight, and really just in semantics.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 02:18 AM   #1468
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Quote:
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I don't think they are going to stop developing, just that at this stage boasting about no.1 is stupid. Fast expansion absolutely, no. 1, for all intents and purposes, no.
Well, if what pearl_river writes is true, then once it passes the length of the London Underground it will be the longest single metro system on the planet.
I don't see any point in boasting about it though (and frankly I don't see anyone doing such a thing).
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Old February 27th, 2010, 07:25 PM   #1469
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The new Zhangjiang High Tech Park station becomes the new bottle neck on Line 2. The extremely narrow staircase at the new underground station is not only severely impeding the rate of dispersement, but also becomes a fire hazard should any emergency situation arises.

http://news.sohu.com/20100227/n270458348.shtml
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Old February 27th, 2010, 07:30 PM   #1470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Joe Average doesn't give two monkeys whether their trains are called Metro or Rail, as long as they turn up and take them to where they want to go. Apart from the packaging there's almost no difference between the two, especially in the case of Japan. Separating Metro and Suburban is a purely academic exercise.

Go discuss the issue with your average joe then. Not with us. We know the difference between a metro and a suburban rail.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #1471
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Go discuss the issue with your average joe then. Not with us. We know the difference between a metro and a suburban rail.
Semantic differences without (sufficient) real-world relevance. In any case the definitions are extremely blurred and there's absolutely no way of scientifically drawing a line between the two.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 09:40 PM   #1472
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That holds for you. Discrimination between two is very easy. Metro/subway does not have any road crossings on it. That is it.
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Old February 28th, 2010, 05:25 AM   #1473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ode of bund View Post
The new Zhangjiang High Tech Park station becomes the new bottle neck on Line 2. The extremely narrow staircase at the new underground station is not only severely impeding the rate of dispersement, but also becomes a fire hazard should any emergency situation arises.

http://news.sohu.com/20100227/n270458348.shtml
Wow, that's pathetic. Why on earth would they build a station with such a narrow staircase?
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 02:52 PM   #1474
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If we exclude light metros like line 5 & 6, Shanghai has 8 actual metro lines. Those are - line 1,2,3,4,7,8,9,11. More eight actual metro lines are under construction or planned, i.e.-line 10,12,13,14,19,20,21 & 22. Line 15,16,17 & 18 will be light metro.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 07:25 PM   #1475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
If we exclude light metros like line 5 & 6, Shanghai has 8 actual metro lines. Those are - line 1,2,3,4,7,8,9,11. More eight actual metro lines are under construction or planned, i.e.-line 10,12,13,14,19,20,21 & 22. Line 15,16,17 & 18 will be light metro.
the fact that a system runs elevated above ground doesn't make it light. The numbered lines in Shanghai are all full fledged heavy rail metros.

The Chinese language defination of a light rail is sometimes different from the English defination.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 08:39 PM   #1476
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the fact that a system runs elevated above ground doesn't make it light. The numbered lines in Shanghai are all full fledged heavy rail metros.

The Chinese language defination of a light rail is sometimes different from the English defination.
You're right. Shanghai residents refer to line 3 as light rail even though it clearly is not since it uses 3m wide trains with capacity far beyond any light rail. Even 5 and 6 are not light rail either. The only real light rail China has so far is Dalian line 201, 202, and 203; and Changchun light rail. I guess you can also include Zhangjiang tram there too
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 09:13 PM   #1477
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Lines 5, 6 and 8 use the smaller loading gauge and type-C stocks (Chinese classification).
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Old March 3rd, 2010, 07:10 PM   #1478
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Quote:
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Lines 5, 6 and 8 use the smaller loading gauge and type-C stocks (Chinese classification).
how wide is a Type C stock?
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Old March 3rd, 2010, 08:53 PM   #1479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
4 train-pairs per hour is nowhere the frequency the Underground is offering. And you can hardly call it turn-up-and-go.
Don't know what you're referring to, but some Underground lines offer the amazing frequency of 3 trains per hour on Sundays. That's far from "turn-up-and-go".

Before this discussion spins into a flame war: I would not compare any of the existing metro systems in the world. Tram systems maybe, but metro are so various that one simply would have first to set own's rules to what qualifies, then ignore the official data and recount it. Impossible work.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 01:22 AM   #1480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
That's an unfair comparison IMO because cities like London Tokyo or New York have separate suburban rail systems that reach outer suburbs and their subway systems only serve the central city. These suburban rail networks function much the same way as Shanghai metro Line 1, 2, 9, and 11. Therefore, if Shanghai metro is to be compared, it should be to their subway + suburban rail networks. When you put it that way, Tokyo has over 2,000 km of rail and New York almost 3,000 km of rail.
Nothing is unfair in this if Shanghai claims to have largest metro system by May because it's a fact. You can call it unfair if Shanghai claims to have "largest rail system" instead of "largest metro system". And having a large metro system by 2015 does not means Shanghai is going to stop there. It may think of building a commuter rail or an RER/S-bahn like hybrid suburban-metro system in future. You need to give some time to the city.

From your comments it looks like you don't want to believe that a developing country's city can beat established developed world's cities so soon. It has happened with me once before as well in some other thread where I just gave a fact that Delhi metro will be larger than London Underground by 2020 and people suddenly got defensive and started saying that London has huge commuter rail and blah blah, while I didn't intended to compare London's transport with Delhi's.

So, it's better to accept it as a plain fact that Shanghai subway is going to be the largest without adding riders to the equations to complicate the matters. Nobody here is comparing Shanghai's transport with London's or Tokyo's. It's just a comparison of length of subway which is a fact and is not dependent on anybody's opinion.
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