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Old March 4th, 2010, 01:41 AM   #1481
Abhishek901
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Originally Posted by Kewl Batty View Post
I'm surprised by the livery! Chennai MTC volvos have exactly the same livery.
Is it juzz a coincidence?
It's strange indeed !!

Anyways, where can I find a thread for Shanghai's road transport/buses ? There are 700 odd threads in Subways and urban transport forum. It will take days to search the thread
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Old March 4th, 2010, 02:11 AM   #1482
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Nothing is unfair in this if Shanghai claims to have largest metro system by May because it's a fact. You can call it unfair if Shanghai claims to have "largest rail system" instead of "largest metro system". And having a large metro system by 2015 does not means Shanghai is going to stop there. It may think of building a commuter rail or an RER/S-bahn like hybrid suburban-metro system in future. You need to give some time to the city.

From your comments it looks like you don't want to believe that a developing country's city can beat established developed world's cities so soon. It has happened with me once before as well in some other thread where I just gave a fact that Delhi metro will be larger than London Underground by 2020 and people suddenly got defensive and started saying that London has huge commuter rail and blah blah, while I didn't intended to compare London's transport with Delhi's.

So, it's better to accept it as a plain fact that Shanghai subway is going to be the largest without adding riders to the equations to complicate the matters. Nobody here is comparing Shanghai's transport with London's or Tokyo's. It's just a comparison of length of subway which is a fact and is not dependent on anybody's opinion.
So the day Shanghai builds a regional/suburban rail system is the day Shanghai's metro can be equitably compared with other cities' subway systems excluding suburban rail.

For your information, I am from Shanghai and I would totally love to see my city have a metro and a suburban rail that can rival the world's best. Ideally it would have the current metro and a suburban/regional rail that connect cities as far as Wuxi to the west, Nantong to the north, and Jiaxing to the south. I mean if the Pearl River Delta is constructing something like this why can't the Yangtze River Delta do so? It would also be nice to see Chongming have its own suburban rail network with a terminal in Shanghai Railway Station the way Long Island has the LIRR terminating in Grand Central. I just feel like right now, Shanghai's rail transportation network is currently (including 2020 plans) limited in reach, coverage, and sophistication.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 03:01 AM   #1483
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So the day Shanghai builds a regional/suburban rail system is the day Shanghai's metro can be equitably compared with other cities' subway systems excluding suburban rail.
As I said before, nobody was comparing Shanghai's transport with other city and saying that Shanghai is better. The point made was just that Shanghai metro will be longest by 2010 and that is a factual statement without any opinion. Of course this statement does not means that Shanghai's public transport will be best or its subway will be best.

There are numerous other metrics to judge the efficiency. For example even after building 500 km of metro, Shanghai will have lower subway km per million population when compared to London. But the point is that you somehow over-reacted to an innocuous statement which said Shanghai will have largest subway, which is actually true. What I want to say is that lets not celebrate it as ultimate achievement but at least recognize and give some importance to this achievement.

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For your information, I am from Shanghai and I would totally love to see my city have a metro and a suburban rail that can rival the world's best.
That's fine but you were getting over-apprehensive. Ground situation may not be that worse. Just wait for sometime and who knows, you might be seeing a grand plan for commuter railway few years down the line !!

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I just feel like right now, Shanghai's rail transportation network is currently (including 2020 plans) limited in reach, coverage, and sophistication.
I believe this is not the end. Developed world cities took centuries to reach this stage, so why do you expect Shanghai to do that in 2-3 decades. I hope Shanghai will go for a suburban rail in future but I guess it wants to focus on metro first. And that's natural. You can yourself imagine that it won't be easy to construct 2 systems (metro and suburban rail) side by side.

It's exactly same here in Delhi. Govt first wanted to build a mammoth metro first and it's now that it has started planning for a new and modern suburban system. Shanghai was quite late in catching the metro fever. China is growing fast since early 80s but the first line opened in 1995. Now it's catching up very fast and I am hopeful of seeing a well developed commuter rail in Shanghai by 2040.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 03:32 AM   #1484
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Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post

I believe this is not the end. Developed world cities took centuries to reach this stage, so why do you expect Shanghai to do that in 2-3 decades. I hope Shanghai will go for a suburban rail in future but I guess it wants to focus on metro first. And that's natural. You can yourself imagine that it won't be easy to construct 2 systems (metro and suburban rail) side by side.

It's exactly same here in Delhi. Govt first wanted to build a mammoth metro first and it's now that it has started planning for a new and modern suburban system. Shanghai was quite late in catching the metro fever. China is growing fast since early 80s but the first line opened in 1995. Now it's catching up very fast and I am hopeful of seeing a well developed commuter rail in Shanghai by 2040.
I hope what you're saying is right. I'm just skeptical because there hasn't been any news or releases of a commuter rail plan for Shanghai/Yangtze River Delta yet even though we're fast approaching 2020. Compare that with the Pearl River Delta which is already building a giant commuter rail to places like Dongguan, Foshan, Shenzhen, Hong Kong, etc. while building the Guangzhou metro. Beijing also has a massive commuter rail plan under construction with Line 2 already opened that goes up to the Great Wall. I'm just wondering why there aren't even plans for a commuter rail for someplace as important as Shanghai and the Yangtze Delta. I'd hate to see it fall behind other metropolitan areas in China in terms of rail transport infrastructure let alone world. But hopefully we'll see a massive network for 2040 during the middle of this decade!
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Old March 4th, 2010, 05:24 AM   #1485
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Shanghai doesn't need "suburban rail" because it doesn't have suburbs like NYC or London. The urban area of Shanghai is tiny (compared to those cities, relative to its size), and there are heavy restrictions as far as expanding the area goes. Building detached housing in Shanghai Municipal is prohibited since 2-3 years ago.

People commuting from the nearby larger cities like Suzhou are using HSR to get to work in Shanghai.


It doesn't make any sense to compare Shanghai to NYC or London, since the city is built in a completely different way.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 06:09 AM   #1486
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Don't say that we are fast approaching 2020. Still 10 years are left . 10 years is enough time in many developing countries today to change drastically. And you don't need to look outside your country/city for examples. Just compare pre-1995 Shanghai with today. In 15 years since first line opened, the city will have largest subway. One can expect the same for next 10 years. Even though the city is a bit late in planning and implementing commuter rail compared to its counterparts but it will have significant edge over others in the intra-city transport because of larger subway.

10 years is too much time, I guess you will see first commuter line operating before that. You might be aware of the story of second avenue subway of New York. I don't think Shanghai will ever set such a bad example
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Old March 4th, 2010, 07:50 AM   #1487
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Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
Don't say that we are fast approaching 2020. Still 10 years are left . 10 years is enough time in many developing countries today to change drastically. And you don't need to look outside your country/city for examples. Just compare pre-1995 Shanghai with today. In 15 years since first line opened, the city will have largest subway. One can expect the same for next 10 years. Even though the city is a bit late in planning and implementing commuter rail compared to its counterparts but it will have significant edge over others in the intra-city transport because of larger subway.

10 years is too much time, I guess you will see first commuter line operating before that. You might be aware of the story of second avenue subway of New York. I don't think Shanghai will ever set such a bad example
Another reason why I am apprehensive is that Shanghai already has like two or three suburban rail lines in its 2020 masterplan but they're nothing compared to comprehensive suburban rail system the way NYC, London, or Tokyo's has. They're just three lines that begin where the metro ends (Jinshan railway, Qingpu railway, and Nanhui railway). What I don't want to see happen in Shanghai is what became of Seoul's transportation system, which is in effect one oversized metro network with little differentiation between suburban rail and metro function. This can be inconvenient since getting out to the suburbs would take very long and make daily commuting rather unfeasible. Its been 30+ years and Seoul still has no plan for a genuine suburban rail to my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 11:48 AM   #1488
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I don't have much idea about Seoul but I know this fact that they have some really oversized lines.

BTW, I don't find this concept of starting commuter rail at the point where metro ends as a good one. People coming from distant suburbs will have to first commute through commuter rail and then cover a long distance in metro with a relatively slow pace. It will take a lot of time to reach city centre. It also means different commuter rail lines are not directly linked to each other, so a person travelling from one suburb to another will have to use metro also in order to change lines.

I hope they have planned to ultimately extend all these commuter lines till city centre in future and form a grid parallel to the metro, otherwise there will be a problem.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 12:40 PM   #1489
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Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
Another reason why I am apprehensive is that Shanghai already has like two or three suburban rail lines in its 2020 masterplan but they're nothing compared to comprehensive suburban rail system the way NYC, London, or Tokyo's has. They're just three lines that begin where the metro ends (Jinshan railway, Qingpu railway, and Nanhui railway). What I don't want to see happen in Shanghai is what became of Seoul's transportation system, which is in effect one oversized metro network with little differentiation between suburban rail and metro function. This can be inconvenient since getting out to the suburbs would take very long and make daily commuting rather unfeasible. Its been 30+ years and Seoul still has no plan for a genuine suburban rail to my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
You're wrong.

Shanghai's city planning concept is completely different from that of NY, London and/or even Tokyo and Seoul. The suburban rail network is the birth child of the 1950s personal motor vehicle based design philosophy, one of which Shanghai has never adopted.

Shanghai's city planning concept, along with rest of China, actually disperse period/task function related density and averages out travel patterns by staying away from single use zoning policies and thus, reducing rush hour mono-directional travel.

Once you have a large amounts of people travelling at all directions at the same time, suburban rail networks becomes insufficient because it simply does not have the flexibility and accessibility that a metro would be able to provide. This is why Shanghai will most likely stay away from the North American/European style suburban rail networks and continue to focus on building full-fledged metros.

This is on top of the fact that many suburban rail networks were built on empty lots that were filled by development many years later, a luxury which Shanghai does not have.


The closest thing that Shanghai will have as a suburban rail within the next 10 years will be its short distance HSR networks to nearby cities.

You're not comparing apples to apples.
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Last edited by UD2; March 4th, 2010 at 07:46 PM.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 07:54 PM   #1490
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It's strange indeed !!

Anyways, where can I find a thread for Shanghai's road transport/buses ? There are 700 odd threads in Subways and urban transport forum. It will take days to search the thread
Sunwin bus probably built the bodies for these units in India.

Volvo I believe even have a stake in the company.


Although, I find Sunwin a very backdated company without much innovative spirit. I don't think the company would be able to compete with other manufactures if not for its strong ties with the Shanghai city council.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 08:19 PM   #1491
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If you personally experience Shanghai Metro then you'll find that all lines (except from line 4 and the circle bit of the 3) suffer from extreme mono-directional problems. The metro network is very much mono-centric and you can actually fit a Burgess's model to Shanghai's land-use pattern.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 08:31 PM   #1492
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Shanghai's city planning concept is completely different from that of NY, London and/or even Tokyo and Seoul. The suburban rail network is the birth child of the 1950s personal motor vehicle based design philosophy, one of which Shanghai has never adopted.
Suburban railway services are way older than that. There were established at the end of the 19th or the beginning of the 20th century.
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Old March 5th, 2010, 12:35 AM   #1493
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how wide is a Type C stock?
Sorry for the slightly late reply - had to do some digging to find the information. Here's a rough guide on classification in China (length x width in metres):

Type A: 22x3 (most Shanghai trains are of this type)
Type B: 19x2.8 (most Beijing trains are of this type)
Type C: 19x2.6 (as used on Shanghai's lines 5, 6 and 8 and future 'ligh-rail' lines of 15, 16, 17 and 18).
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Old March 5th, 2010, 03:05 AM   #1494
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If you personally experience Shanghai Metro then you'll find that all lines (except from line 4 and the circle bit of the 3) suffer from extreme mono-directional problems. The metro network is very much mono-centric and you can actually fit a Burgess's model to Shanghai's land-use pattern.
Outside the line 4 ring, yes, but inside, no. All the lines within the ring are busy in both directions. But outside the ring it makes sense - most jobs are in the city centre (within the line 4 ring and inner ring road) and so it makes sense that that will be the direction most people are heading.
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Old March 5th, 2010, 05:10 AM   #1495
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You're wrong.

Shanghai's city planning concept is completely different from that of NY, London and/or even Tokyo and Seoul. The suburban rail network is the birth child of the 1950s personal motor vehicle based design philosophy, one of which Shanghai has never adopted.

Shanghai's city planning concept, along with rest of China, actually disperse period/task function related density and averages out travel patterns by staying away from single use zoning policies and thus, reducing rush hour mono-directional travel.

Once you have a large amounts of people travelling at all directions at the same time, suburban rail networks becomes insufficient because it simply does not have the flexibility and accessibility that a metro would be able to provide. This is why Shanghai will most likely stay away from the North American/European style suburban rail networks and continue to focus on building full-fledged metros.

This is on top of the fact that many suburban rail networks were built on empty lots that were filled by development many years later, a luxury which Shanghai does not have.


The closest thing that Shanghai will have as a suburban rail within the next 10 years will be its short distance HSR networks to nearby cities.

You're not comparing apples to apples.
Nice summary..
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Old March 5th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #1496
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Outside the line 4 ring, yes, but inside, no. All the lines within the ring are busy in both directions. But outside the ring it makes sense - most jobs are in the city centre (within the line 4 ring and inner ring road) and so it makes sense that that will be the direction most people are heading.
Which is similar to London and Paris . London's Zone 1 and Paris proper are of similar sizes to Shanghai's line 4 ring.
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Old March 7th, 2010, 10:43 AM   #1497
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Extension of line 2 to Hongqiao aiport should happen this month, anyone know the exact date?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 03:02 PM   #1498
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Hey, can someone rename this thread back to Shanghai Metro?


http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article...p;type=Feature
Quote:
Metro lines connected to the hub

2010-3-16 | NEWSPAPER EDITION



PASSENGERS can directly get to Hongqiao International Airport's Terminal via the eastern extension of Metro Line 2.

This is the first time a city subway line has connected to an airport.

Line 2 is also expected to connect the city's two airports, Hongqiao and Pudong, before the World Expo 2010 begins on May 1.

According to Shanghai Tunnel Engineering Design Institute, chief designer of the extension line, train doors on both sides can be opened to let passengers out quickly when the subway arrives at the Terminal 2 Station.

Line 2 operates until 10:50pm.

Passengers whose flights take off or land at the old terminal can take free shuttle buses when getting off the subway.

Another subway, Metro Line 10, will have a stop at Terminal 2 by October.

Lines 2 and 10 will also have stops connecting with the hub's railway station by the time the station opens in July. In the long term, the two subways will also connect with the planned Lines 5, 17 and 20 at the railway station.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 05:51 PM   #1499
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Done.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 05:59 AM   #1500
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That's quite a long subway ride from Hongqiao to Pudong on line 2!
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