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Old April 14th, 2010, 01:55 PM   #1581
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Quote:
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Some photos of the world's most crowded metro;
Are all these pics from Shanghai metro ? I dread to think what will be the case with Beijing subway which has more commuters for a much shorter length.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 02:08 PM   #1582
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Quote:
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The thing is that we haven't talked about "definitions" at all here. It has simply been claimed that Shanghai Metro (the system-- not various forms of rails that might be defined as "metro") has surpassed the London Underground (the LU system-- not all metro-like rail in London) in length and become the largest single metro system on the planet. In this sense, I think it is unlikely that Shanghai Metro will be surpassed in any foreseeable future.

Of course, if we're including all metro-like rail, Tokyo wins by a margin. But then again-- in that case we wouldn't even have introduced the fact that the Shanghai Metro is the world's longest in the first place. So that discussion is quite irrelevant.
Well, I'd have thought us 'geeks' would be more capable than such ivory tower conversations. In any case we've been there quite a few times already ...

Responding to the pictures the floor below of People's Square Line 2, do you know how recent they are? I hoped the opening of Lines 7, 9 and 10 would have given more interchange options for passengers hence reduced the pressure of People's Square. Of course Lines 7 and 11 themselves are bringing a lot of passengers to line 2, so the overall effect is probably limited. With the opening of lines 12 and 13 in just a few years time things at People's Square might get better.
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Old April 14th, 2010, 03:06 PM   #1583
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The pics were posted yesterday in this thread, so they are probably recent.

I suppose the "problem" is that while more interchange options have been introduced with the new lines, these new lines have also added hundreds of thousands of daily passengers to the system as a whole, thereby maybe even increasing overcrowding even more.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 05:03 AM   #1584
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yes the subway crowd is increasing exponentially as length of underground rail extends. last week, I took line 1, 2, 10, 4, 6, line 1 and 6 was full packed on every train on rush hours. The interchanging crowd between line 1 and line 2 is amazing.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 07:44 AM   #1585
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Shanghai & Yantze Region will look the way much better in 2020, 877km and 22 lines - Awesome!

Love Shanghai.

Been to Busan and Seoul but they are declining to the soil in my opinion. . .
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Old April 15th, 2010, 12:43 PM   #1586
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No way, you are NOT saying that London could be a match to London in terms of system size in the future, are you . Such an argument fails instantly. Why not to add the suburban rail which also has "metro characteristics" in some instances? Let's just be realistic.

The reality is that by 2020 or so Shanghai will have a system twice the size of London. By then Beijing and perhaps some other Chinese cities will have larger systems.
Not really. By 2017 (which is before 2020 last I checked ), Crossrail (118.5km) will be complete, Thameslink will have been upgraded to Tube frequencies (225km, though only about 80km of that could genuinely be considered metro-type in terms of frequencies, etc), London Overground (not to be confused with suburban commuter rail, as Overground is on the Tube map, and which includes former Tube lines such as the newly extended and upgraded East London line) will have at least 120km just including the latter, and then there's the rapidly expanding DLR. Including all metro-type rail, therefore, I think London will stay comfortably ahead of Shanghai and Beijing, especially given that some of the latter's planned lines are actually suburban commuter style services that terminate at a central terminal, and if those are included then London's system dwarfs Shanghai and Beijing put together.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 12:49 PM   #1587
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What about including some other London's suburban services since they run at "metro frequencies" (6-8 trains per hour)?

But, of course, this is not what we are counting which is why neither Thamselink, nor Crossrail or anything else which is not a part of the LU network is not included in the system length of London just like isn't the Eurostar or anything else that our endless imagination is capable of producing at times.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 12:59 PM   #1588
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What about including some other London's suburban services since they run at "metro frequencies" (6-8 train per hour)?
Well you can if you like, but I would exclude them because they terminate at city centre stations, and are thus better classified as suburban commuter rail. Crossrail, Thameslink, LO, etc are not just frequent, they also cross right through the city and appear on the basic Tube map.
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But, of course, this is not what we are counting which is why neither Thamselink, nor Crossrail or anything else which is not a part of the LU network is not included in the system length of London just like isn't the Eurostar or anything else that our endless imagination is capable of producing at times.
Well it depends what you want. If you want a sensible discussion of the hard facts and realities, then of course Crossrail, Thameslink, LO should be included. However if you simply want to manipulate the data in order to make Shanghai seem bigger, and London seem smaller, then by all means insist on LU only.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 01:04 PM   #1589
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Great to hear Londoners loving their underground and network rail services, but this is the Shanghai Metro forum guys and should only be reserved for discussing about Shanghai's Metro. I'm not understanding the need to compare both systems when they serve two very distinct cities with unique transportation patterns and problems. Let's keep this thread back on track and not have it derail again.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 01:06 PM   #1590
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Quote:
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Well you can if you like, but I would exclude them because they terminate at city centre stations, and are thus better classified as suburban commuter rail. Crossrail, Thameslink, LO, etc are not just frequent, they also cross right through the city and appear on the basic Tube map.Well it depends what you want. If you want a sensible discussion of the hard facts and realities, then of course Crossrail, Thameslink, LO should be included. However if you simply want to manipulate the data in order to make Shanghai seem bigger, and London seem smaller, then by all means insist on LU only.
I want to compare the numbers of the lengths of metro systems. If I'll be willing to compare metro systems+crossrail+thamselink+anything else I will do precisely that.

I have no problem with anyone comparing whatever they want but I think I stated rather clearly what I was and what I wasn't comparing.

But yeah, I guess it's a good practice not to derail this thread with offtopic.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 01:35 PM   #1591
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It has been clear over the past few years that Londoners (and many other Western cities that are being surpassed by evil Chinese cities in various aspects) have a big problem with the Chinese transit systems growing and surpassing the LU.

In any case-- nobody in this thread has claimed that Shanghai has more "metro like rail" or a bigger urban rail system than Greater London. The only thing that has been said is that the Shanghai Metro has surpassed the London Underground in length ("but, but, but... we have more metro like rail!!"-- seriously, how old are you guys, three?). That's it. Let's leave it at that and, please, leave your silly complexes out of this thread...
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Old April 15th, 2010, 01:49 PM   #1592
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Forget your imagined "complexes" and stick to the facts. The truth is that Crossrail, Thameslink, LO, etc, are metro rail, and so should be included. Your argument is akin to excluding all mention of the RER in Paris even though it's obviously metro rail (at least in inner Paris). And as NCT mentioned already, Shanghai's planned lines 21 and 22 are are actually suburban commuter rail rather than metro rail, so sifting through the definitions and labels to find the hard reality is a relevant exercise here.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 02:05 PM   #1593
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In any case-- nobody in this thread has claimed that Shanghai has more "metro like rail" or a bigger urban rail system than Greater London. The only thing that has been said is that the Shanghai Metro has surpassed the London Underground in length.
This.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 02:08 PM   #1594
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^ No, this....
Quote:
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Well it depends what you want. If you want a sensible discussion of the hard facts and realities, then of course Crossrail, Thameslink, LO should be included. However if you simply want to manipulate the data in order to make Shanghai seem bigger, and London seem smaller, then by all means insist on LU only.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 02:26 PM   #1595
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But the purpose of this thread isn't to discuss with Londoners the definitions of what constitutes as "metro" or not in the respective cities.

The Shanghai Metro (the single system) has reached a certain length making it, according to the newspaper articles posted, the longest single metro system in the world, including the London Underground. The fact that London has other rail systems that are "metro like" is completely irrelevant (in that case we can forget about both London and Shanghai, because Tokyo surely has more "metro like" rail anyway) in this case.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 02:47 PM   #1596
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very good
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Old April 15th, 2010, 03:09 PM   #1597
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Quote:
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But the purpose of this thread isn't to discuss with Londoners the definitions of what constitutes as "metro" or not in the respective cities.

The Shanghai Metro (the single system) has reached a certain length making it, according to the newspaper articles posted, the longest single metro system in the world, including the London Underground. The fact that London has other rail systems that are "metro like" is completely irrelevant (in that case we can forget about both London and Shanghai, because Tokyo surely has more "metro like" rail anyway) in this case.
Because Shanghai's boast is dubious at best. The reality is that London has considerably more metro rail than Shanghai.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 03:20 PM   #1598
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How can you call it boasting (it's not even the Shanghai Metro company or whoever you're referring to when you write "Shanghai's boast" that is claiming it)?

Should Shanghai deliberately split up its metro into several smaller "cross rail" and "Huangpu Link" systems so that the newspapers won't claim that the Shanghai Metro is longer than the London Underground (which is, indeed, a fact)?

If London is so eager to let the world know that it has more "metro like" rail than Shanghai, then I suggest changing the name of its other systems to "London Underground" so that the media won't be confused by the terminology. In any case it seems pointless since there are cities in the world that has more metro like rail than London anyway (which, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't hold any such title any more now that Shanghai Metro has surpassed the LU).
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Old April 15th, 2010, 03:35 PM   #1599
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If London is so eager to let the world know that it has more "metro like" rail than Shanghai, then I suggest changing the name of its other systems to "London Underground" so that the media won't be confused by the terminology.
Now that really would be childish!! However we urban geeks can do better than the general media. We can see past distortions created by official labels and focus on the underlying reality.

And yes, Tokyo has the world's biggest urban rail network, whether we count metro rail only, or if we count all urban rail (ie suburban commuter lines too). London is second on both counts.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 03:39 PM   #1600
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Exactly. London didn't have any problems "boasting" about the fact that the Underground was the longest subway system in the world prior to being surpassed by the Shanghai Metro. And now, that it has-- other "metro like" rail are suddenly to be included-- which is kind of a moot point because including other types of rail is going to put Tokyo on top leaving both Shanghai and London in the dust anyway.
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