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Old April 15th, 2010, 03:44 PM   #1601
NCT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post

Exactly. London didn't have any problems "boasting" about the fact that the Underground was the longest subway system in the world prior to being surpassed by the Shanghai Metro. And now, that it has-- other "metro like" rail are suddenly to be included-- which is kind of a moot point because including other types of rail is going to put Tokyo on top leaving both Shanghai and London in the dust anyway.
I don't recall Londoners when challenged protesting endlessly 'but we are only comparing metros!'

The question we need to ask ourselves is why we are interested in such statistics. The obvious answer to me is that these statistics carry meaning - how easily the people of Shanghai can get around the city through rail-based means. Brand-names are irrelevant - it's the purpose for which travellers use these means that's important. If line X offers a good frequency and one can use it to get to and from work and get around the central area then this line needs to be taken into account. If you want to compare then compare fairly. Saying 'we are only comparing raw statistics' one minute and 'Londoners have trouble accepting Chinese transit systems surpassing LU' the next simply won't do.

And for the record I am from Shanghai and still speak the Shanghai dialect at home, and from extensive personal experience of rail systems in Shanghai AND London know that these raw statistics carry very little meaning. The average traveller in Shanghai seems to know this rather better than some of us here it would also seem.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #1602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Langur View Post
We can see past distortions created by official labels and focus on the underlying reality.
Not in an attempt to get meta-philosophical here, but it's a naive illusion at best to think you could even discern an 'underlying reality'.
You don't seem to realize that your definition of what constitutes 'metro rail' is in itself only possible by labeling a certain kind of transport infrastructure as such. It would be naive to believe that such a definition could even exist outside of a discourse which is created for the sole purpose of being able to have a more general understanding of 'what we're talking about' in the first place.
In that way, you're in exactly the same naming game as the 'general media' are. Though your definition might take into account a higher level of accuracy and discernability of other rail-based transport systems, there's no way one could ever reach 'the truth'.

That discussion set aside: for myself, I would consider Thameslink and Crossrail as urban rail, simply because their main purpose would be to serve an urban environment (which brings us to another discussion: what is to be considered 'urban'?). I would put them in a different league than the underground railways and the Shanghai metro lines altogether, though, but I'm aware of the fact that I don't do that because I would be able to see 'the underlying reality' (which, if it is even there, isn't relevant), but simply because I've labeled certain characteristics of such systems as attributable to 'urban rail'. And I do that, because others (you, me, the people in this discussion, transport organizations, the 'general media' etc) do more or less the same. That way, a discourse is created that labels systems in a certain way.

If there were such a thing as an 'underlying reality', we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. At best, it would be as productive as discussing whether the object I'm writing this prose on is called a 'keyboard' or a 'snaffle'.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 03:58 PM   #1603
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@Staff
Why "metro like"? It's almost as if you think we're exaggerating or pretending. Read the specs for Crossrail. They'll be large 10-car trains operating at 24 trains per hour through central London tunnels (that's a train every 2.5 minutes). The upgraded Thameslink will also have 24 trains per hour running through central London, and trains up to 12 cars long. The capacity and frequency of those lines is phenomenal. Also London Overground includes former LU lines (eg the newly extended East London line) and all LO lines feature on the basic LU map. They use the same Oyster ticketing system too. They're not "metro like". They're just "metro rail". There's no ambiguity.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 04:05 PM   #1604
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For those who can read Chinese:

http://www.ditiezu.com/thread-91510-1-1.html
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Old April 15th, 2010, 04:10 PM   #1605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alargule View Post
Not in an attempt to get meta-philosophical here, but it's a naive illusion at best to think you could even discern an 'underlying reality'.
You don't seem to realize that your definition of what constitutes 'metro rail' is in itself only possible by labeling a certain kind of transport infrastructure as such. It would be naive to believe that such a definition could even exist outside of a discourse which is created for the sole purpose of being able to have a more general understanding of 'what we're talking about' in the first place.
In that way, you're in exactly the same naming game as the 'general media' are. Though your definition might take into account a higher level of accuracy and discernability of other rail-based transport systems, there's no way one could ever reach 'the truth'.

That discussion set aside: for myself, I would consider Thameslink and Crossrail as urban rail, simply because their main purpose would be to serve an urban environment (which brings us to another discussion: what is to be considered 'urban'?). I would put them in a different league than the underground railways and the Shanghai metro lines altogether, though, but I'm aware of the fact that I don't do that because I would be able to see 'the underlying reality' (which, if it is even there, isn't relevant), but simply because I've labeled certain characteristics of such systems as attributable to 'urban rail'. And I do that, because others (you, me, the people in this discussion, transport organizations, the 'general media' etc) do more or less the same. That way, a discourse is created that labels systems in a certain way.

If there were such a thing as an 'underlying reality', we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. At best, it would be as productive as discussing whether the object I'm writing this prose on is called a 'keyboard' or a 'snaffle'.
Ok well here's my best effort to distinguish metro rail from suburban rail.

Suburban rail:
- terminates at a centre centre terminus
- relatively low frequencies with a timetable

Metro rail:
- runs right through the city (often underground, especially in the centre)
- high frequencies with a service interval rather than timetable


I accept there is a certain woolliness to all this. For instance not all of Thameslink's 225 km should be considered metro rail. Some of the far flung branches have more in common with suburban rail. Ditto the extremities of Paris's RER network. However the core trunk lines that have frequent services most certainly are metro rail, and it's a distortion of reality to exclude or ignore such lines when making comparisons of metro networks in different cities.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 04:18 PM   #1606
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One should of course also consider circular and outer lines (LO for London, and lines 15 - 18 for Shanghai), which form part of the urban rail fabric. And just to expand on Langur's point, one could argue branches of the Metropolitan Line are really suburban rail. To me the most relevant discussion is one that includes all urban and suburban rail in the entire Metropolitan area, a holistic approach that's clearly been adopted by most contributors of Ditiezu a thread of which I provided a link for.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 04:27 PM   #1607
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Just to end the off topic discussion here;


The Shanghai Metro has recently surpassed the London Underground as the longest single metro system in the world. This is what has been claimed by media and posted in this thread.

However, if taking other systems of metro standard (but not labeled as such, or labeled differently than the "main metro system" in the city) into account, then Tokyo is still the metropolitan area in the world with the longest total system.

All cleared up. No need for further discussion I think. Let's get back to topic.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 04:30 PM   #1608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
one could argue branches of the Metropolitan Line are really suburban rail.
Yup, and yet it's the Metropolitan Line from which the term "metro" (used to describe metro rail systems) derives from.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 04:40 PM   #1609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Langur View Post
However the core trunk lines that have frequent services most certainly are metro rail, and it's a distortion of reality to exclude or ignore such lines when making comparisons of metro networks in different cities.
Which in turn begs the question: why make such comparisons in the first place? Comparing for the sake of comparing is pointless, which brings us back to the starting point of this discussion: the claim that Shanghai now is the record holder for city with the largest metro network in the world.
That's a claim that can be disputed (and I believe one has every right to do so), but only because there is no concensus over the definition of what constitutes as a 'metro (like)' network / 'urban rail' network.
I believe there are actually two victims here in this discussion, London and Shanghai. Why? Because efforts at comparing both cities' networks brings about an attempt at forcing both networks into some sort of common definition, thereby losing sight of the intricacies that make both networks unique. Certainly, both networks do have certain characteristics in common - you already named a few - but they also hold quite a few exceptions to that rule, which makes them very difficult - if not impossible - to compare, but also gives them their unique identity.

But we're veering off topic here, I would like to see some more pictures of the new Shanghai metro lines!
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Old April 15th, 2010, 06:59 PM   #1610
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^ Yes you're right. It is problematic, but I don't think comparisons are so impossible that they can't be attempted. There is quite a bit of data out there, the main definitions are fairly clear, and clued-up nerds like us enjoy nothing better! Anyway enough of this distraction. I've said my bit....

Last edited by Langur; April 16th, 2010 at 06:00 AM.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 08:21 PM   #1611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post

How can you call it boasting (it's not even the Shanghai Metro company or whoever you're referring to when you write "Shanghai's boast" that is claiming it)?

Should Shanghai deliberately split up its metro into several smaller "cross rail" and "Huangpu Link" systems so that the newspapers won't claim that the Shanghai Metro is longer than the London Underground (which is, indeed, a fact)?

If London is so eager to let the world know that it has more "metro like" rail than Shanghai, then I suggest changing the name of its other systems to "London Underground" so that the media won't be confused by the terminology. In any case it seems pointless since there are cities in the world that has more metro like rail than London anyway (which, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't hold any such title any more now that Shanghai Metro has surpassed the LU).
Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
Just to end the off topic discussion here;


The Shanghai Metro has recently surpassed the London Underground as the longest single metro system in the world. This is what has been claimed by media and posted in this thread.

However, if taking other systems of metro standard (but not labeled as such, or labeled differently than the "main metro system" in the city) into account, then Tokyo is still the metropolitan area in the world with the longest total system.

All cleared up. No need for further discussion I think. Let's get back to topic.
+1. Alright guys. The conclusion is:

Shanghai metro has become the "single largest" metro system surpassing LU. (Though in overall terms London has more metro, rather metro-like lines than Shanghai).

Since it was me who first started the longest metro talk, I would like to take the honour to end this discussion
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Old April 15th, 2010, 08:42 PM   #1612
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Yep,and please more new pics from Shanghai!
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Old April 15th, 2010, 09:00 PM   #1613
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The comparisons end as of now and final.
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Old April 15th, 2010, 11:05 PM   #1614
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well done shanghai!

[wiki]
Quote:
by the end of 2020 the network will comprise of 22 lines spanning 877 km.
[/wiki]

this is just WOW!
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Old April 16th, 2010, 03:55 AM   #1615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
When you put it like that it does indeed sound like you care after all...
I care that many people are smugly boasting about the legnth of Shanghai's Metro with the the pretense that Londoners care that it is longer. I don't care that it is longer.
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Old April 16th, 2010, 07:21 AM   #1616
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Metro length and ***** length have more in common than I thought
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Old April 16th, 2010, 05:54 PM   #1617
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Coz it's a lie that the lenght doesnt count )
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Old April 17th, 2010, 01:28 AM   #1618
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It seems that the Grand Prix Racecourse station closes every time there's a race going on. Understandable as trains only run every 21 minutes on this branch due to lack of available rolling stock. Hope things will become normal once all trains are in service...

http://www.ditiezu.com/thread-90349-2-1.html
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Old April 17th, 2010, 05:29 PM   #1619
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well, the station is not closed for every race ... it has just been opened a few weeks ago and is still in trial operation.
sure ... trains runnning every 21 mins couldn´t deal with that crowd of people ...
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Old April 18th, 2010, 05:15 AM   #1620
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from metrofans.sh.cn
line 2












Last edited by liwentao_tom; April 19th, 2010 at 03:31 PM.
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