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Old May 24th, 2010, 01:24 PM   #1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maldini View Post
Why do they have two up escalators here? Why not have one escalator up and the other escalator down ?

I think this is just a case of misleading signage. The signage is independent of the escalators below it - it's just there to show this is an exit, and it's not meant to indicate the direction of escalators. I might be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if the escalators were not the standard one up one down.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 02:30 PM   #1722
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Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
All of Shanghai's metro ridership is disappointing. Its by far the largest network in Greater China but it has over a million fewer riders daily than Beijing. Even Guangzhou's system, which is only a third the size of Shanghai's has almost as many daily riders. Do people in Shanghai just refuse to use the subway? Have they not gotten used to the fact that they don't need to use buses anymore? Why is it that Guangzhou and Beijing have so many more daily riders per km? I dunno about other metro systems in China but Guangzhou and Beijing sorta just popped out at me since they have noticeably high ridership when compared with the size of their networks. Plus Beijing and Guangzhou can't be denser than Shanghai can they?
i share the exact same view
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Old May 24th, 2010, 03:08 PM   #1723
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There are a number of other reasons that explain Shanghai Metro's seemingly low patronage ...

The biggest reason is actually lack of rolling stock - when lines 7, 9, 10 and 11 operate at the same frequencies as lines 1 and 2 (every 3 minutes) then they will reach similar figures as lines 1 and 2. Expect figures for lines 1, 2 and 3 to go up too when the remote parts get beefed up. Line 8 might just reach 1 million when the whole line gets the 2-minute frequency throughout.

The structure of the network is another factor. Most journeys in Shanghai would take the form of one train into town and change to one other for the destination, so 1 passenger counts twice per typical journey. Beijing's and Guangzhou's network don't follow such a clear structure. Take Beijing for example - if you live out in the sticks you need to take 2 trains just to get to the centre, then possibly another to reach the actual destination, so a typical journey might count 3 times. This is why Beijing's statistics might look better than Shanghai's when it ain't necessarily so in reality.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 05:10 PM   #1724
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
There are a number of other reasons that explain Shanghai Metro's seemingly low patronage ...

The biggest reason is actually lack of rolling stock - when lines 7, 9, 10 and 11 operate at the same frequencies as lines 1 and 2 (every 3 minutes) then they will reach similar figures as lines 1 and 2. Expect figures for lines 1, 2 and 3 to go up too when the remote parts get beefed up. Line 8 might just reach 1 million when the whole line gets the 2-minute frequency throughout.

The structure of the network is another factor. Most journeys in Shanghai would take the form of one train into town and change to one other for the destination, so 1 passenger counts twice per typical journey. Beijing's and Guangzhou's network don't follow such a clear structure. Take Beijing for example - if you live out in the sticks you need to take 2 trains just to get to the centre, then possibly another to reach the actual destination, so a typical journey might count 3 times. This is why Beijing's statistics might look better than Shanghai's when it ain't necessarily so in reality.
That's pretty interesting. Never thought about it that way. Yeah come to think of it, Beijing does have pretty decent intervals at least on Line 1 and Line 10. From what I remember, they were far more frequent than even Shanghai's Line 1 and 2.

As far as the structure goes, I always thought they counted one passenger as one rider regardless of how many interchanges they make. But that was just speculation. So each passenger is counted for as many times they make an interchange too? For ex: A guy who takes Line 3 to Hongkou Stadium and transfers to Line 8 then transfers to Line 2 is counted three times?
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Old May 24th, 2010, 05:10 PM   #1725
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Also, Beijing's fare is much cheaper than Shanghai's - 2 RMB regardless of distance. This probably attracts a lot more people who would have previously taken the bus. In Shanghai the bus is oftentimes quite a bit cheaper, even if it is slower.

Anyway, I thought the ridership on the Beijing subway was around 5 million per day, so if Shanghai is getting 6 million per day now, isn't that quite a bit higher than Beijing?
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Old May 24th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #1726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkenmunkey888 View Post
That's pretty interesting. Never thought about it that way. Yeah come to think of it, Beijing does have pretty decent intervals at least on Line 1 and Line 10. From what I remember, they were far more frequent than even Shanghai's Line 1 and 2.

As far as the structure goes, I always thought they counted one passenger as one rider regardless of how many interchanges they make. But that was just speculation. So each passenger is counted for as many times they make an interchange too? For ex: A guy who takes Line 3 to Hongkou Stadium and transfers to Line 8 then transfers to Line 2 is counted three times?
I don't know about Beijing, but AFAIK in Shanghai the way it works is this: the theoretical shortest route is calculated between the entry and exit stations, and then each line in this 'shortest route' (irrespective of actual route taken) has its count added by one. This is how they count individual line statistics. I don't know if there exists a separate record for total journeys made in the entire system that don't count transfer journeys more than once.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #1727
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Quote:
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Also, Beijing's fare is much cheaper than Shanghai's - 2 RMB regardless of distance. This probably attracts a lot more people who would have previously taken the bus. In Shanghai the bus is oftentimes quite a bit cheaper, even if it is slower.
Yeah, and it's possible that this contributes to low off-peak demands. During peak hours though you can't pack any more passengers inside trains on most lines (certainly 1, 2, 6 and 8).

Quote:
Anyway, I thought the ridership on the Beijing subway was around 5 million per day, so if Shanghai is getting 6 million per day now, isn't that quite a bit higher than Beijing?
Yeah, but Beijing's network size is about half that of Shanghai's.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 05:28 PM   #1728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
Anyway, I thought the ridership on the Beijing subway was around 5 million per day, so if Shanghai is getting 6 million per day now, isn't that quite a bit higher than Beijing?
Granted im not sure where the source is, but wikipedia updated Beijing's subway to nearly 6 million daily riders in 2010 and as NCT said, is only half the size of Shanghai's. Guangzhou is just as impressive with 4.3 million daily riders on a network as small as Shanghai's was back in 2005. And as I recall, Shanghai had 1.8 million daily riders back then...
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Old May 24th, 2010, 07:04 PM   #1729
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I don't know if there exists a separate record for total journeys made in the entire system that don't count transfer journeys more than once.
Well, if you look at the source for the latest numbers that P05 posted (http://www.shmetro.com/node49/201005/con104099.htm), they quote transferring ridership as 2.183 million. This would seem to give system ridership of 6.013 - 2.183 = 3.830 million.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 07:22 PM   #1730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maldini View Post
Why do they have two up escalators here? Why not have one escalator up and the other escalator down ?

If im recalling it properly the escalators worked respectively on the passangers demand at the moment. When there were more ppl arriving at the specific station - both escalators were up, if there were more departing - they both were going down.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 07:46 PM   #1731
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I think NCT is right on this one... The right escalator is a down one (I have other pictures of the same stairwell showing people coming down from the concourse level). At least when I visited the station (mid-morning on a weekday, right after Line 10 had opened for service that day), the passenger traffic was very light, so I'm not so sure about the parallel escalators, at least for Yuyuan Garden.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 08:31 PM   #1732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
The structure of the network is another factor. Most journeys in Shanghai would take the form of one train into town and change to one other for the destination, so 1 passenger counts twice per typical journey. Beijing's and Guangzhou's network don't follow such a clear structure. Take Beijing for example - if you live out in the sticks you need to take 2 trains just to get to the centre, then possibly another to reach the actual destination, so a typical journey might count 3 times. This is why Beijing's statistics might look better than Shanghai's when it ain't necessarily so in reality.
I don't think that's right. When you buy a token/ticket, you make a contact of that token with reading machine only twice in the entire journey (once during entry and once during exit). In large networks like Shanghai, there can be more than one possible route combinations between 2 stations. Also the shortest route in terms of length might not be the shortest in terms of time as it may have more interchanges thus requiring more waiting time at platforms, which means multiple journey options between 2 stations.

Since you do not make any registered entry while changing lines and there are multiple options available, one cannot tell how many people took a particular line. IMO, it is the number of complete journeys which are given in the figures, instead of journeys of individual lines. Individual lines' figures are calculated by number of registered entries on that line. Unregistered entries (that is using a line after free transfer) are not counted as journeys of that line IMO.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #1733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
I don't think that's right. When you buy a token/ticket, you make a contact of that token with reading machine only twice in the entire journey (once during entry and once during exit). In large networks like Shanghai, there can be more than one possible route combinations between 2 stations. Also the shortest route in terms of length might not be the shortest in terms of time as it may have more interchanges thus requiring more waiting time at platforms, which means multiple journey options between 2 stations.

Since you do not make any registered entry while changing lines and there are multiple options available, one cannot tell how many people took a particular line. IMO, it is the number of complete journeys which are given in the figures, instead of journeys of individual lines. Individual lines' figures are calculated by number of registered entries on that line. Unregistered entries (that is using a line after free transfer) are not counted as journeys of that line IMO.
No no, the statistics are calculated in the way I described - the 'system' calculates the shortest route regardless of actual routes likely to be taken, and adds counts to those lines involved appropriately. It's been officially explained by the operating company and this information is frequently available on forums like Metrofans and Ditiezu. Unfortunately I haven't come across any official documents regarding this in English.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 01:31 AM   #1734
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I don't really think it's fair to complain about ridership on Shanghai's network just yet, given that several of the lines (Line 7, Line 9 phase 2, Line 10, Line 11) either just entered full service or are still in trial operation. These lines haven't had a chance to get up to full operating capacity, and so the ridership will continue to grow as people get used to using them. Line 4, for example, has had its ridership increase significantly since its train frequency has increased in the past few months, and I'm sure the other lines will see something similar. So at the moment we can't quite compare Shanghai's total network length to Beijing's and say Shanghai is underperforming.

And I still maintain that cost is a big issue. If Shanghai were to institute a 2RMB flat fare, it probably would see its ridership skyrocket.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 01:47 AM   #1735
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The other point to consider is that subways are supposed to change development patterns. They are long-term projects with ridership expected to increase over their decade or centuries-long use. Development in Shanghai might not be optimal now, but increased property values near metro stations will encourage denser development.

Shanghai's entire metro is only 15 years old so property development is a little slow in catching up. Think of it this way: when the US interstate highway system was first completed, it had no where near the traffic it does now. Did that make it a failure five or ten years after it opened? No, because the project was a long-term, "all in" investment designed to shape the future of American planning and consumerism.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 07:44 AM   #1736
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Shanghai's entire metro is only 15 years old so property development is a little slow in catching up. Think of it this way: when the US interstate highway system was first completed, it had no where near the traffic it does now. Did that make it a failure five or ten years after it opened? No, because the project was a long-term, "all in" investment designed to shape the future of American planning and consumerism.
Yes but Guangzhou's opened 11 years ago. But I think its a bit of a mystery why Guangzhou's ridership is almost as high as Shanghai's even though its network is a third the size. Furthermore, Line 5 only opened this past December right? Still I don't think anyone can say the Shanghai metro is a failure. Its still one of the busiest subway systems in the world, at least top 10.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 09:19 PM   #1737
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Yes but Guangzhou's opened 11 years ago. But I think its a bit of a mystery why Guangzhou's ridership is almost as high as Shanghai's even though its network is a third the size. Furthermore, Line 5 only opened this past December right? Still I don't think anyone can say the Shanghai metro is a failure. Its still one of the busiest subway systems in the world, at least top 10.
Passenger-km travelled matter more than just the number of passengers. Even if Shanghai has less number of pax than Beijing or Guangzhou, I believe it will have higher pax-km as the people will travel longer average distance here because of higher length of the system.

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No no, the statistics are calculated in the way I described - the 'system' calculates the shortest route regardless of actual routes likely to be taken, and adds counts to those lines involved appropriately. It's been officially explained by the operating company and this information is frequently available on forums like Metrofans and Ditiezu. Unfortunately I haven't come across any official documents regarding this in English.
Is this same for other metros too ?
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Old May 26th, 2010, 01:13 AM   #1738
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Is this same for other metros too ?
Yes, assuming it is a distance based fare system instead of a time based one. One's journey begins by entering a set of fare gates and the distance is calculated based on the exit fare gate. How else can they figure it out?

Take Hong Kong's MTR, if you enter Admiralty and want to go to Kwun Tong Station, you have two options to take the Tsuen Wan Line, then transfer onto the Kwun Tong Line, or you can take the Island Line, transfer to the Tsuen Wan O Line, then transfer back onto the Kwun Tong Line. Even if you wanted to go to Central Station, adjacent to Admiralty, and you wanted to take a MTR tour, it will only charge you the distance for the shortest route between Admiralty and Central.
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Old May 29th, 2010, 11:11 PM   #1739
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A time based doesn't make much sense either. Better to set a single tariff regardless the time and the length of the trip.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 08:54 PM   #1740
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Line 10 has extended its operation period today, now running between 5:30 to 19:30 daily with trains about every 6 minutes. The reason it can't operate beyond 19:30 is that the section between the Zoo and Hongqiao airport is still having its track laid and the trains have to be back in the shed in time as to not disrupt construction.
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