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Old December 22nd, 2006, 10:10 PM   #21
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what is this comparison ????
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Old December 23rd, 2006, 03:44 AM   #22
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Did they ever consider building a metro instead of a tram? Or was it just not considered because of the density and cost?
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Old December 23rd, 2006, 11:37 AM   #23
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100 meters after the T3 it is an old ring track the "Petite ceinture" separed of the car traffic.
This is i abandonned and It was a better idea if this this infracture was utilised for the T3


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Old December 23rd, 2006, 04:04 PM   #24
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It's great that big cities again reconsider using of tramways while some others look to become more and more car-depended

Anyway, great project Paris

Btw, trams add more to the romantic feeling of the city
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Old December 23rd, 2006, 04:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kostya View Post
It's great that big cities again reconsider using of tramways while some others look to become more and more car-depended

Anyway, great project Paris

Btw, trams add more to the romantic feeling of the city
I hear you.
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Old December 24th, 2006, 07:53 PM   #26
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Did they ever consider building a metro instead of a tram? Or was it just not considered because of the density and cost?
It wasn't considered because of cost, ideology, and base politics.

1- cost: a metro line costs more money than a tramway line. But the return on investment for this metro line would be very high, so it would be worth spending the money.
2- ideology: the Green Party which is running the City of Paris along with the Socialists wanted a tramway built on the pavement to hinder car traffic and create massive jams to discourage car drivers. The result is indeed massive traffic jams, but people still using their cars of course, because they have no choice to go work in the suburbs, so it increases pollution, despite official propaganda claiming the opposite.
3- base politics: probably the #1 reason for this tramway line. Building a metro line takes 10 years, whereas building a tramway takes 5 years. Problem is, municipal elections are held every 6 years. So if you're a mayor and you want to be reelected, you build a tramway, because you can show it before the next election, whereas a metro will take longer to build and won't be useful for your reelection. I believe that's why the Socialist mayor of Paris prefered to build a tramway instead of a metro, even if they will never admit it officially.

None of this mess will improve as long as the State won't come in and take the issue personally, as they've done for the RER in the 1970s. Local politicians will only build stupid useless tramway lines, let's face it.
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Old December 26th, 2006, 12:16 PM   #27
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Is this line separated from car traffic? i.e. a light rail?
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Old December 26th, 2006, 05:54 PM   #28
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Is this line separated from car traffic? i.e. a light rail?
yes
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Old December 26th, 2006, 07:12 PM   #29
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Is this line separated from car traffic? i.e. a light rail?
Well, not really. Between street crossings it is separated from car traffic, but at street crossings it has to share the road with cars. In theory it has priority at street crossings, but in practice, car traffic is so dense that the tramway is often stuck in traffic when it tries to cross large avenues. Some users have reported tramway cars stuck in traffic for 5 to 10 minutes before being able to cross major avenues (the so called "gates" of Paris). And there are many "gates" to cross. The Green Party opposed the crossing of gates in tunnels separated from car traffic.
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Old December 27th, 2006, 11:16 PM   #30
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While the tramway has its charm, I think that a peripheral RER line would have been of greater benefit, even if I know an RER line would have been much more expensive. But for one, instead of having built the former tramway lines T1, T2 and T4(?), as well as this T3 line, they should have begun a circumferal RER line, especially since T1, T2 and T3 (not sure about T4) already circum Paris. I've noticed that Berlin, London and Madrid (surely others) have such circular lines already. It only seems appropriate that Paris, which is a round-shaped city with several suburbs around, should have one, too.

I'm not sure how the regional RER is financed (municipal and/or regional taxes) but perhaps the fact that The City of Paris has no jurisdiction outside of Paris in the suburbs eased the creation of a tramway line inside Paris. Regardless, there is a more hasted need for fast transit between Paris suburbs and a peripheral RER somewhere between the Paris ring-road and the Ile-de-France ring-road would have done the trick.
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Old December 27th, 2006, 11:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
It wasn't considered because of cost, ideology, and base politics.

1- cost: a metro line costs more money than a tramway line. But the return on investment for this metro line would be very high, so it would be worth spending the money.
2- ideology: the Green Party which is running the City of Paris along with the Socialists wanted a tramway built on the pavement to hinder car traffic and create massive jams to discourage car drivers. The result is indeed massive traffic jams, but people still using their cars of course, because they have no choice to go work in the suburbs, so it increases pollution, despite official propaganda claiming the opposite.
3- base politics: probably the #1 reason for this tramway line. Building a metro line takes 10 years, whereas building a tramway takes 5 years. Problem is, municipal elections are held every 6 years. So if you're a mayor and you want to be reelected, you build a tramway, because you can show it before the next election, whereas a metro will take longer to build and won't be useful for your reelection. I believe that's why the Socialist mayor of Paris prefered to build a tramway instead of a metro, even if they will never admit it officially.

None of this mess will improve as long as the State won't come in and take the issue personally, as they've done for the RER in the 1970s. Local politicians will only build stupid useless tramway lines, let's face it.
I couldn't agree more. Not much of a comfort, but this is not a Paris-only syndrome...
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Old December 28th, 2006, 01:01 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edubejar View Post
While the tramway has its charm, I think that a peripheral RER line would have been of greater benefit, even if I know an RER line would have been much more expensive. But for one, instead of having built the former tramway lines T1, T2 and T4(?), as well as this T3 line, they should have begun a circumferal RER line, especially since T1, T2 and T3 (not sure about T4) already circum Paris. I've noticed that Berlin, London and Madrid (surely others) have such circular lines already. It only seems appropriate that Paris, which is a round-shaped city with several suburbs around, should have one, too.

I'm not sure how the regional RER is financed (municipal and/or regional taxes) but perhaps the fact that The City of Paris has no jurisdiction outside of Paris in the suburbs eased the creation of a tramway line inside Paris. Regardless, there is a more hasted need for fast transit between Paris suburbs and a peripheral RER somewhere between the Paris ring-road and the Ile-de-France ring-road would have done the trick.
There's already a project for a circular line. This line would be located 2 to 3 miles from the Central Paris ring-road. It wouldn't be a RER, it would be a métro, but a fast métro, with stations 1 kilometer apart, when Central Paris metro stations are usually 300 or 400 meters apart. This circular line is called "Métrophérique". It would link La Défense with Saint-Denis, Montreuil, Villejuif, Issy-les-Moulineaux.

This circular line was proposed by the new boss of the Paris Transports (RATP), who said that people in the suburbs pay taxes same as people inside the city proper and so they deserve as good a public transportation network as people in the city proper. The line, however, is opposed by the president of the Île-de-France (Greater Paris) region. This man is not particularly known for his bold vision or energy, he's the typical do-little politician. He argues that there's not enough money to make the line. The boss of Paris Transports says the line would cost 4 billion euros, but the president of Greater Paris region says it would cost 10 billion euros and is not doable. Recently the mayor of the City of Paris and several mayors from the suburbs met in a so-called "metropolitan conference" and forced the president of the Greater Paris region to accept the circular line, which he reluctantly did, but it's clear that there's no real political will on his part. This guy, however, is charged with corruption and will face trial in the second week of January, so if the French justice is still independent it's possible that he will either end up in jail or be deprived of his mandate at the head of Greater Paris, in which case a new president of Greater Paris would have to be elected.

The problem, fundamentally, is that neither the municipalities nor the region have the money to finance such an infrastructure. They could, of course, issue bonds or borrow money from banks, but the current president of Greater Paris is not a man of vision like that. He just manages whatever little money he has. He recently called this circular line a "pharaonic" project, which had people ironically note that with such a guy Paris would probably never have built its world-famous Métro in the 1900s. Sigh...

I think things can only change if the French government steps in and builds the line itself. It was the French government that stepped in and built the RER in the 1970s. Unfortunately the French government has a big budget deficit, thanks to 25 years of very lax spending policies, and the general thinking among national politicians is that Paris already has a good enough public transportation system, so why put money there, let's put money in the provinces instead. The 2005 Paris suburbs riots may have opened the eyes of some national politicians though... Let's hope so!
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Old December 28th, 2006, 01:14 PM   #33
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For a comparison of costs, Paris T3 tramway cost about 0.3 billion euros, whereas the circular "Métrophérique" line would cost 4 to 10 billion euros, i.e.13 to 33 times more.

Here's a map showing the path of the "Métrophérique" line (with variants).



Another map:

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Old December 28th, 2006, 05:52 PM   #34
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Looking at the pictures in this thread, I can't help but think that there is adequate population density along the tram route to support a full metro.
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Old December 28th, 2006, 09:28 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Looking at the pictures in this thread, I can't help but think that there is adequate population density along the tram route to support a full metro.
Many people see a metro as thè adagio. Trams, (trolley-)buses and similar groundfloor-level means of transportation simply prove to be the quickest means of transport.
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Old December 28th, 2006, 09:32 PM   #36
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????????????

Any valid sources for that bold statement?

(so that's why all major cities build metro(-like) systems rather than tram systems...)
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Old December 28th, 2006, 11:10 PM   #37
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Stops at ground-level, and at much shorter intervals. Just a matter of looking at your watch really.
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Old December 29th, 2006, 12:47 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
... Between street crossings it is separated from car traffic, but at street crossings it has to share the road with cars. In theory it has priority at street crossings, but in practice, car traffic is so dense that the tramway is often stuck in traffic when it tries to cross large avenues. Some users have reported tramway cars stuck in traffic for 5 to 10 minutes before being able to cross major avenues (the so called "gates" of Paris). And there are many "gates" to cross. ...
This matches my experience with light rail in the United States. I used to live in Boston and had a daily commute that involved both the Green Line (light rail) and the Red Line (subway/metro). The service on the Red Line was faster and far more reliable than the Green Line. The service on my branch of the Green Line (E Branch - Arbor Way) was particularly dismal as the outer segment operated in lanes shared with motor vehicle traffic.
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Old December 29th, 2006, 06:24 AM   #39
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Quote:
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Looking at the pictures in this thread, I can't help but think that there is adequate population density along the tram route to support a full metro.
Metro and tramway are complementary, they can have both.
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Old December 29th, 2006, 12:07 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Stops at ground-level, and at much shorter intervals. Just a matter of looking at your watch really.
... as long as they are not clogged in traffic jams. And the numerous stops also make buses and trams slow.
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