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Old December 17th, 2014, 04:31 AM   #1001
Silly_Walks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoccatArvo View Post
- Trams have a pantograph and overhead lines. The Translohr too.
So do trolleybuses.

Quote:
- Translohr trams are bidirectionnal, like Citadis trams and Flexity trams.
Bidirectionality does not a tram make. A car can drive backwards. That does not make it a tram.
Many trams are not bidirectional, but they are still trams.
Many metros are bidirectional, but they are not trams.

Quote:
- The Translohr has a permanent guiding, like normal trams.
Trams have rails on which they run. Translohr does not. It has a guide rail which merely guides it. Actual running is done on tires.

Quote:
- The Translohr can be 46m long. In a lot of countries, bus can't overstep 30 meters. In France, the limit is 25 meters.
Length does not a tram make. I once held hands with a long line of people. This did not turn us into a tram.

The longest road trains are over 50 meters in length. This does not make them trams... or actual trains.

Quote:
- The Translohr is electric, like any other tram.
So is a trolleybus, many trains, metros and a Tesla Roadster.

Quote:
- The GLT is subjected to trafic regulation. The Translohr is subject to the same regulation than other trams.
The law does not a tram make. For the law, men and women are TREATED the same. But that does not magically turn men into women and vice versa.
In certain countries, people on roller skates are subject to the same traffic regulations as bicyclists. That does not turn the roller skates into bicycles.

Quote:
Except the wheels and the bogies, the Translohr is like the other trams.
And the rails, and the fact that it isn't a tram.

Except for the bark and the leash, a dog is a cat.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 06:43 AM   #1002
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This last post by Silly Walks contains a lot of unintended hilarity, just wanted to say.

If you ask me, Translohr is what happens when tokenism gets built as a vehicle. It's supposed to appeal to passenger psychology like a real tramway, i.e. special right-of-way, station design, integration into urban landscape etc. in order to win potential passengers for public transport that otherwise feel themselves to be above riding a bus with all these suspicious strangers, yet for some reason the city employing it finds an excuse not to install a proper tramway (topography, cheaper installment, local jobs, Grande Nation vanity) that usually seems a bit far-fetched to name it cautiously.

I may be ready to buy the argument that combined transportation is something that's best to be avoided as any transfer makes public transport more and more unattractive and Translohr may therefore be a blessing for hill-valley transportation, but then again, why not resort to Frisco-style cable cars?

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In Paris, the governement was afraid that Lohr would go bankrupt because of a lack of orders. And according to the Cour des Comptes (a public but independant and highly regarded Council which examines the expenses of the administrations and public organisations), the RATP only wanted to build as many lines as possible very quickly, no matter the technology used, to face up to a possible incoming competition from private operators.
This. Say what you want about the purity of motive, but this is the closest thing to a qualified reason to build Translohr in the suburbs of Paris. RATP essentially prepared for "war" and needed every "man".
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Old December 17th, 2014, 11:01 AM   #1003
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The map of the tram network has been updated on Carto Métro:
http://carto.metro.free.fr/documents...Paris.v2.4.pdf
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Old December 17th, 2014, 11:10 AM   #1004
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Looking on the map, the most unusual tram stop of T6 is Georges Millaby - it has long platform, and on one half of platform stops westbound trams, on the other - eastbound
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Old December 17th, 2014, 11:15 AM   #1005
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It's here...
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Old December 17th, 2014, 11:24 AM   #1006
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@Skalka : apart the fact as i think that the Translohr IS closer to a tram than to trolleybus (from a user perspective, no doubt, i'm in a tram !), Silly walk made another mistake when he said that "The law does not a tram make".

At least in France, this is false. When a vehicle is involved in an accident, it's very important to legally define what the vehicule is, because the law applicable to trains and trams is not the same as the one applicable to car, trucks, or busses (it's much more easier for the victim to obtain a compensation in the second case). From this point of view, the Translohr is now considered as a tram.


@00Zy99 : the RATP does not think his network this way. That's the same thing with the subway : all lines are considered as isolated from the other, no tracks are shared. Sound probably strange but in fact, it's much more easier to manage : when there's a problem on a line, it has no effect on the other.


@dimlys1994 & [email protected] : right, that's is really curious ! But after all it's not a bad idea : the available space was clearly scarce, and there was only enough place to built a single platform, probably too narrow to receive passengers for both directions...
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Old December 17th, 2014, 12:45 PM   #1007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentB_ View Post
the RATP does not think his network this way. That's the same thing with the subway : all lines are considered as isolated from the other, no tracks are shared. Sound probably strange but in fact, it's much more easier to manage : when there's a problem on a line, it has no effect on the other.
All line of Paris metro are isolated in commercial service but tracks of all lines are connected to each other.
A train can move from a line to an other, mainteance can be in a depot located in an other line.

MF 77 have their heavy maintenance done in Saint-Ouen at the end of the line 4.
Trains of line 7, 8 and 13 have to use the tracks of line 4. (Note that line 4 is rubber tired while line 7, 8 and 13 are steel)

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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Bidirectionality does not a tram make. A car can drive backwards. That does not make it a tram.
Many trams are not bidirectional, but they are still trams.
Many metros are bidirectional, but they are not trams.

Trams have rails on which they run. Translohr does not. It has a guide rail which merely guides it. Actual running is done on tires.
You forgot something, Translohr can't run without its guide rail.
This is why it is not a bus or trolleybus.

This how I see it.

Train: vehicule running on guided infrastructure are dependent on this infrastructure. Monorail or Maglev are train even if they does not run on usual rail tracks.
Metro: Urban train running on segregated way, often underground
Tram: train operating at street level with intersection with traffic.

Except the fact it does not run on usual track, Translohr is everything like a conventional tram.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 01:57 PM   #1008
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Another excellent video from ErebosSan:

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Old December 17th, 2014, 01:59 PM   #1009
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Définition de Tramway par le dictionnaire Larousse
in French and a translation in English:
Tramway :
nom masculin
mot anglais de tram, rail et way, voie
définitions :
1/ Autrefois, chemin de fer établi sur la chaussée d’une route ou d’une rue au moyen de rails sans saillie (rails à ornière) ; voie ferrée d’intérêt local établie en totalité ou en partie sur la voie publique ou en accotement de route.
Aujourd’hui, chemin de fer électrique destiné au transport urbain et suburbain des voyageurs et implanté en totalité ou en partie sur la chaussée des rues empruntées.
2/ Véhicule qui circule sur ces voies (Abréviation : tram).

1/Formerly, railway established on the carriageway of a road or a street by means of rails without projection (grooved rails); railway of local interest established altogether or partially on public roads or in the verge of road.
Today, railway with electric traction intended for the public and suburban transport of the travelers and implanted altogether or partially on the roadway of the borrowed streets.
2/vehicle which circulates on these rails (Abbreviation: tram).
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Last edited by intres; December 17th, 2014 at 04:22 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 03:04 PM   #1010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoccatArvo View Post
In Caen, the TVR has a licence plate. There is a guiding rail on the whole line, but the vehicles must often go on the road when there is a problem on the line.
Yep! You're correct! My bad. I didn't realize the Caen vehicle also had a auxilliary diesel engine.

What a crappy system!
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Old December 17th, 2014, 03:59 PM   #1011
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Where the new t8 runs along that large road, which looks like 2 lanes in each direction now, how many lanes was it before. If the number of traffic lanes has been reduced significantly how did they justify it and what has happened to the traffic thatw as once there? Have people got out of cars onto trams or is there a major traffic problem now
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Old December 17th, 2014, 04:16 PM   #1012
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The road has 3 lanes in each direction, including two bus lanes in each side, some major intersections had underpass.

In the heart of Epinay, there was a central busway.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 04:48 PM   #1013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
So do trolleybuses.
No. Most of trolleybus have trolley poles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Bidirectionality does not a tram make. A car can drive backwards. That does not make it a tram.
Many trams are not bidirectional, but they are still trams.
Many metros are bidirectional, but they are not trams.
Standard buses are not bidirectionnal.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 05:16 PM   #1014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentB_ View Post
Silly walk made another mistake when he said that "The law does not a tram make".

At least in France, this is false. When a vehicle is involved in an accident, it's very important to legally define what the vehicule is, because the law applicable to trains and trams is not the same as the one applicable to car, trucks, or busses (it's much more easier for the victim to obtain a compensation in the second case). From this point of view, the Translohr is now considered as a tram.
I made no mistake, and clearly explained this. Just cause one type of vehicle is treated the same according to the law, does not turn it into another type of vehicle. A translohr is treated the same as tram according to the law, but that does not make it a tram. A male is treated the same as a female according to the law, but that does not make him a female.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 05:17 PM   #1015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skalka View Post
This last post by Silly Walks contains a lot of unintended hilarity
You have misjudged my intentions
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Old December 17th, 2014, 05:21 PM   #1016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
You forgot something, Translohr can't run without its guide rail.
This is why it is not a bus or trolleybus.
I did not forget that. That fact just doesn't make it a tram.

Quote:
Train: vehicule running on guided infrastructure are dependent on this infrastructure. Monorail or Maglev are train even if they does not run on usual rail tracks.
Metro: Urban train running on segregated way, often underground
Tram: train operating at street level with intersection with traffic.

Except the fact it does not run on usual track, Translohr is everything like a conventional tram.
You say a tram is a train, and then go on to say a bus must therefore be a tram.

A translohr is something completely different. It is a trolleybus guided by rail. No way does that make it train, and according to YOUR definition, since it is not a train, it is also not a tram.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 05:24 PM   #1017
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Originally Posted by RoccatArvo View Post
No. Most of trolleybus have trolley poles.
True, but as there are trams using trolley poles, my point still stands. Getting electricity from suspended wires does not make something a tram, because then a trolleybus would be a tram, and most trains would be trams.

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Standard buses are not bidirectionnal.
Neither are many, many trams. My point still stands: bidirectionality does not turn something into a tram.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 05:29 PM   #1018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
True, but as there are trams using trolley poles, my point still stands. Getting electricity from suspended wires does not make something a tram, because then a trolleybus would be a tram, and most trains would be trams.
Don't deform my words. I didn't said it was a tram because it uses electricity.



Neither are many, many trams. My point still stands: bidirectionality does not turn something into a tram.[/QUOTE]

Except the tyres, everything with the Translohr is like a normal tram. The Translohr is a different kind of tram, whatever you think.

Last edited by RoccatArvo; December 17th, 2014 at 05:37 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 05:50 PM   #1019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoccatArvo View Post
Don't deform my words. I didn't said it was a tram because it uses electricity.



Neither are many, many trams. My point still stands: bidirectionality does not turn something into a tram.
Except the tyres, everything with the Translohr is like a normal tram. The Translohr is a different kind of tram, whatever you think.[/QUOTE]

Except the guide rail, it is a trolleybus, whatever you think.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 06:14 PM   #1020
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Why can't Translohr run without it's guide rail? What makes it so "tram-y" (technically speaking) as opposed to the TVR?
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